An evening of combat logging with a surprise ending

[Ralph Vargr]

The game has it's own mechanics for reducing loss, or the chance of loss. Combat logging is an exploit to get around those mechanics.
The combat loggers in solo are cheating themselves in solo, if they only stay in solo. If they come into open, they are cheating everyone they encounter in open. Since the game allows switching between modes on the same character someone can easily grind solo with godmode enabled(aka save-scumming, aka combat logging). The worst part is can they also enable it in open too.

So you're right, someone doing it in solo doesn't matter much, if they stay and only do it in solo.

And, I would only have two insurance claims instead of twenty, if I had *ever* combat logged playing Elite. I only play in solo.

I get punished for doing the right thing. With no humans watching. Happy?

- - - Updated - - -

I had an Anaconda do this to me last nighy I took his sheilds off and drives down so he couldn't jump out, next thing I know I'm doing no damage to him and he dissappears.
Really boils my blood.

And, this is the real complaint. Combat logging in Open, depriving other players of their kills.

 

[scorpyon]

Ok imagine this:
-
NPCs dissapear on shield fail
Cargo dissapears on trying to sell it
Rocks dissapear when mining
No money for missions
No money or recognition for exploration discoverys
Only way to get money is kill a player with a bounty ( who can easily combat log)
-
These would all be equivilanet of PvP combat logging in other areas
-
Eventually PvP could potentially die from the game which is a blow to sales for certain player groups, you could even say at least 25% regularly get involved in PvP and that's a lot to lose, with all of the above the game would die in hours
-
It cost me around 30,000 in repairs and ammo and shield cells and I missed out on any bounties the opponent had
-
Now imagine that all the above was caused by bugs in the next update, and now imagine that FD say they arnt going to fix it, that's how people feel about combat loggers who encounter it a lot

Nope! Totally wrong.
Sorry.

If an NPC disappears, you lose a bounty credit. (This is agreeably bad)
If they didn't have one, you don't end up with a murder bounty on your own head. This goes in your favour, not detriment.
Cargo disappears trying to sell - different o a player disappearing who doesn't drop cargo when they explode. Bad comparison
Rocks disappear? Again. Pointless comparison. Now you're just being silly.
No money for missions... wait, what? Did you even think these comparisons through?
No money for.. nope, forget it. All credibility was just lost by this point. Did you even actually think about what you were trying to compare here?
Or were you just arguing for the sake of it?

None of the above is even remotely the "equivalent" of a player logging off during combat aside from perhaps the first example. Not even slightly.
But in the first example, if NPCs did that, you would not get the bounty and that is a direct impact on you as the attacking player.

Tell me. What bounty / merit / reward / cargo do you get for killing an unarmed, unaligned, un-Wanted trader exactly?
If there is a visible reward that you can provide for me, then perhaps I'll change my standpoint.

What do you have after killing them that you didn't have before?
(Aside from a misplaced sense of achievement)

 

[scorpyon]

Hmm. Ok that post might have come across a bit snarky there. Please try and look past the snark and get the point I was trying to make.

Sorry, its hot in the office... Lol!

 

[lonewarrior]

Hmm. Ok that post might have come across a bit snarky there. Please try and look past the snark and get the point I was trying to make.

Sorry, its hot in the office... Lol!

What I meant was that those are the equivilanet in terms of credits lost and gameplay time wasted on a mechanic ingame, which is true.
You would get nothing from any of those things, people would go insane over it

-
At the end of the day, whatever yours, mine it anyone else's opinion on it.......FD say it's an expliot and it's cheating, so whatever anyone thinks, it's against the rules and it's wrong (unless your against someone who is clearly hacking or exploiting themselves like the old instant shield regen glitch which is now patched, I wouldn't Condem someone for doing it then, but having a full battle just to combat log at the end is just not right, besides who is going to report you for it and say " I was cheating and then he cheated ban him!" Same as they can combat log in solo all they want but when it affects me it's a problem)

-
If people knew they could get away with it, it only brings more and more people to do it, soon everyone will combat log (happend in dayz, so they made it so your avatar remained and was killable for 30 secs after you log out)
-
if everyone combat logs, then it ruins a part of the playerbase who will just go elsewhere and give bad reviews saying that cheaters are getting away with it

 

[andyraptor]

My wife combat logs every time I ask for a cuppa tea

 

[lonewarrior]

My wife combat logs every time I ask for a cuppa tea

I could think of worse times for our better halves to combat log .......

 

[kurush]

Well actually, if your connection drops in the middle of every PVP encounter, it does affect the other player.

If you can't keep a stable connection because of your pets or a bad ISD, you are directly interfering with another players game time with out-of-game meta-mechanics. If your cat happen to unplug your internet cable everytime you are in combat, you should play Solo.

What I mean with that is; You should be banned from playing in Open.

I spent some time watching the network logs for this game and I am very pleased to say that the amount of network glitches that can be classified as "combat logging" is high enough to clear open for good in any kind of enforcement action If you want people with stable connections, find a group of likeminded individuals. Otherwise, whatever the game tolerates for a connection is sufficient and my pets are not your business.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

If they didn't have one, you don't end up with a murder bounty on your own head. This goes in your favour, not detriment.

Or were you just arguing for the sake of it?

You never have to pay a bounty so at worst it's a wash.

Tell me. What bounty / merit / reward / cargo do you get for killing an unarmed, unaligned, un-Wanted trader exactly?
If there is a visible reward that you can provide for me, then perhaps I'll change my standpoint.

What do you have after killing them that you didn't have before?
(Aside from a misplaced sense of achievement)

Do only unaligned, not wanted traders combat log? It's pretty rampant through out all professions. Besides that fact, random killing is part of the game. If a trader is attacked randomly, the killer may not get anything in return but, the trader is getting something in return by combat logging. It's basically an exploit to never have to pay insurance, ever. If it was an external program that made all insurance1cr would we even be having this argument?

Let me tell you what happened to me recently. I was attacked by an fdl bounty hunter for my 2 million dollar bounty and he was well within his right to do so of course. When he pulled me over and started to attack, I figured instead of running, I'd fight back. My pirate clipper had seen worse than an fdl and I could always escape if the fight went belly up.

After about 10 mins(at least it felt that long, it could have been way shorter) I managed to kill his thrusters while he was at 10% hull. In other words, he was DOA. I had taken heavy damage too, I was down to around 20% and my canopy had busted. Just as I move in for the kill, he vanishes. I'm left there with a massive repair/resupply cost and 7+ mins to get to a station. He suffered no loss, with the FD server code, he probably logged back in with full health and ammo.

Would I have gained anything from his kill, nothing tangible. The satisfaction of killing him perhaps. A satisfying end to an awesome fight, definitely. If he didn't disconnect, I probably would have added him as a friend. It was a good fight up until that point.

What did he gain? Around 3 million dollars he would have paid in insurance. He also ignored the risk he took by attacking a strong ship/flying in open/not equipping his ship properly, what have you.

Is it fair he be given a mulligan when he gambled and rolled a snake eyes? I took a huge risk fighting him in a clipper, mine paid off, I made it back to the station. (thank you C grade life support)

Does it make it ok because I wouldn't have gotten anything for his death? If the situation was reversed and I did it, would that make it wrong? Judging by your post probably.

 

[John Smallberries]

I do wonder though how many players get regular drop outs due to their connection vs the number of players that combat log.

I suspect few actually drop, I have a lousy connection and regularly hang-up for a while, especially in dock for some reason, but I have very very rarely ever been dumped. I suspect the timeout is very high with E.

It wouldn't be hard to tell the difference between someone who has intermittent or constant connection problems, versus a combat logger. The pattern would be easily differentiated.

As to whoever said it would be technically impossible to implement a forced return to the same instance. . Easy as pie. The mechanism already exists, the same mechanism that allows friends to instance together. If it was an NPC, it can easily be done client-side. The client could also, easily, be modified to force the same type of game, solo or open, in the event of a disconnect or atypical program termination. I realize that wouldn't do a lot, as the combat logger could wait out a commander, or try to, but that is in itself a punishment of sorts, being forced into hiatus.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand how the CL can be frustrating and immersion breaking for players, but how is it any different than exiting to the menu and re-entering to reset instances countless times to get the environment you want? Is it because it irks real people? Technically it's still using the log out feature in unintended ways to exploit the game. Same is true for logging out using a big T9 right off the pad, and being 9.5K out when you log back in. You skip all that maneuvering and thrust, overheat time to get to jump range.

All these things are unintended aspects of the game. The combat logging is just annoying to players, but no one seems to care about all the other instances of exploiting game loopholes.

Oh please. You know why it's different.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Oh please. You know why it's different.

Of course he knows in what/why it is different.

But yet, one should not be able to log out or high-wake after 15 seconds (since I did not get any answer about the frame shift wake scanners, I assume that they are actually useless even though in theory they work).

In Elite, winning a PvP is basically seeing your opponent getting away. Can you imagine playing Counter Strike and instead of being killed, your opponent leaves the map and come back a few minutes later? Isn't that boring?

 

[Morbad]

I spent some time watching the network logs for this game and I am very pleased to say that the amount of network glitches that can be classified as "combat logging" is high enough to clear open for good in any kind of enforcement action

Nonsense. Even with the most unstable connections deliberate combat logging should stick out like a sore thumb after a relatively short period of time.

The difference between glitches and deliberate disconnections is that the former are either random, or scale with load, while the latter will be conspicuously linked to specific kinds of encounters where the only distinguishing variable is the threat your ship is in.

Habitual combat loggers are easy to spot, likely even for an automated system. They just need to collect enough telemetry and actually review it.

 

[Jukelo]

I spent some time watching the network logs for this game and I am very pleased to say that the amount of network glitches that can be classified as "combat logging" is high enough to clear open for good in any kind of enforcement action If you want people with stable connections, find a group of likeminded individuals. Otherwise, whatever the game tolerates for a connection is sufficient and my pets are not your business.

What is your in-game name again? Just to be sure I can tell FD you have a playful cat in the report in case that can play in your favor.

 

[kurush]

What is your in-game name again? Just to be sure I can tell FD you have a playful cat in the report in case that can play in your favor.

My ingame name is the same as the forum name.

- - - Updated - - -

Nonsense. Even with the most unstable connections deliberate combat logging should stick out like a sore thumb after a relatively short period of time.

You have to really abuse it to get it stick out. Several DC a week blend perfectly with generic connection issues. And smart people figured that already while others keep raging here

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

You have to really abuse it to get it stick out. Several DC a week blend perfectly with generic connection issues. And smart people figured that already while others keep raging here

Several disconnects that just so happen to come during combat with players, which is only a fraction of your playtime.......right. Nothing suspicious about that at all.

 

[Schmack]

I suspect few actually drop, I have a lousy connection and regularly hang-up for a while, especially in dock for some reason, but I have very very rarely ever been dumped. I suspect the timeout is very high with E.

It wouldn't be hard to tell the difference between someone who has intermittent or constant connection problems, versus a combat logger. The pattern would be easily differentiated.

As to whoever said it would be technically impossible to implement a forced return to the same instance. . Easy as pie. The mechanism already exists, the same mechanism that allows friends to instance together. If it was an NPC, it can easily be done client-side. The client could also, easily, be modified to force the same type of game, solo or open, in the event of a disconnect or atypical program termination. I realize that wouldn't do a lot, as the combat logger could wait out a commander, or try to, but that is in itself a punishment of sorts, being forced into hiatus.

- - - Updated - - -



Oh please. You know why it's different.

That's no kind of answer. If I knew why it was different, I'd not have said what I said.

If you feel it's different, perhaps it's because it's not necessarily the exploit that bothers you, but how it affects your gameplay. Someone sitting in a station collecting merits all day long doesn't affect your game play at all. It's an exploit. Someone collecting donation requests for ranking the same way, again... doesn't affect your game play but it's also an exploit. Same is true for exploits that warp the player to places they didn't travel to, using log off mechanics, or jumping out and back in to a combat zone to clear your tail. Suddenly you're just an onlooker again, free to choose sides and let your shields heal. Another exploit but it's based on game limitations. So is combat logging.

If you forced a real person to disconnect from the internet, you were very effective. If they are trolling you by interdicting you time and again, then vanishing, their ship takes a penalty for that as well. Personally I've thought the interdiction aspect of the game is silly. You cannot stop someone from running from you at 300m/s but you can stop them at 200c? Yeah.

- - - Updated - - -

Several disconnects that just so happen to come during combat with players, which is only a fraction of your playtime.......right. Nothing suspicious about that at all.

Any head to head online play suffers from the same thing. If you play any sports game, NBA or anything, your opponent will likely disconnect before losing so they don't register a loss or so you don't get the satisfaction of the win. It's not a violation of EULA.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course he knows in what/why it is different.

But yet, one should not be able to log out or high-wake after 15 seconds (since I did not get any answer about the frame shift wake scanners, I assume that they are actually useless even though in theory they work).

In Elite, winning a PvP is basically seeing your opponent getting away. Can you imagine playing Counter Strike and instead of being killed, your opponent leaves the map and come back a few minutes later? Isn't that boring?

That's why it's called ILeave Dangerous

 

[kurush]

Several disconnects that just so happen to come during combat with players, which is only a fraction of your playtime.......right. Nothing suspicious about that at all.

That would be likely a fraction of total disconnects you have. And to get several you would have to actually return to Open instead of waiting out in Solo for the jerk to disapper. But in any case, good luck waiting for any bans based on DCs. That sounds so ridiculous for your average person not braiwashed by reading this forum I actually waiting with anticipation for CQC, one thing I enjoy is queueing for team PvP matches and then just fooling around, AFKing or DCing. That should be fun.

 

[Daffan]

High waking

AND

Combat logging are ruining PvP

High waking makes mass lock irrelevant, seriously anyone who defends high waking as a good gameplay mechanic must be high on space fumes.

 

[Morbad]

You have to really abuse it to get it stick out. Several DC a week blend perfectly with generic connection issues.

It's correspondingly less of an issue the less you do it.

Regardless, combat disconnects should stick out from "generic" connections issues like a sore thumb...because they only tend to happen when one is outmatched or about to be destroyed. Even basic telemetry could reveal these things.

I also think you overestimate how prevalent major connection issues are. I experience a disconnect from the authentication server maybe once per 100 hours of play, and more often than not it's the server that has gone down (in which case everyone is disconnected).

Most combat loggers are ending the game process or cutting connection entirely, which kills connection to the FD servers as well as to anyone else in the instance...that sticks out. Sure it's possible to block specific peers, but very few people have the ability or inclination to quickly block specific connections on the fly.

In the end I could tell the difference between a random disconnect and a combat log with, good reliability, using a log that listed bandwidth, ship types, ship pilot, ship distance, and the shield/armor status of each ship, every five to ten seconds. There would have to be literally thousands of random disconnects to conceal a handful of deliberate combat logs over a fair period of time. FD may well have more detailed logs than this already.

High waking makes mass lock irrelevant, seriously anyone who defends high waking as a good gameplay mechanic must be high on space fumes.

I think mass lock should apply to hyperspace jumps as well as supercruise, but high-waking isn't a cheat.

 

[kurush]

I also think you overestimate how prevalent major connection issues are. I experience a disconnect from the authentication server maybe once per 100 hours of play, and more often than not it's the server that has gone down (in which case everyone is disconnected).

I am not talking about server DC, I am talking about one peer disconnecting from another. You'll find a lot of those in the network log when you set it to verbose. The number of server DC is indeed reasonable, but it is an entirely different story.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

I could think of worse times for our better halves to combat log .......

I hope i am not thinking of what you might have been thinking, but cogito ergo sum*

* (just to prove I have attended some schooling)