The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[M00ka]

Well, if people can take a break from having a go at each other and dissecting each others comments, perhaps we can take a step back and get some clarity on the topic here from the pro-guild people?

Pro-guild guys. Let's see if we can get some consensus from you as to what exactly you want and why.

1) What exactly do you want?

2) Why do you want it?

Please, be as clear and concise as possible.

Everyone else, can you lie low for a little while until these important questions are answered?

I appreciate some people might have tried to answer these questions some time in the last 100 pages but its hard to filter through all the noise.

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Good luck getting replies, I have asked similar questions at least twice in this thread and got ONE answer. The problem is the PRO side of the fence either don't know what they actually are asking for, can't agree on what they actually want, or are smart enough to not put down the real answer in regards to No 2.

 

[FuzzySpider]

1) What exactly do you want?
in order
see who is in my group and see if they are on line
a guild private chat channel
an officers channel.

This can all be done with teamspeak.

I see absolutely no reason for the developers to bother with this when there are a myriad of other features yet to impliment in game.

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

Why would Guilds ruin this game?? I can see why they will never work like they do in EVE (P2P) given you can get on 32 players into one instance but I can't really see what difference it would make other than having a in game way to co ordinate..

You put a guild system in the game then you'll have good guild's sure, you'd also give the psycho killer's a simple streamlined way to abuse new player's like I was. Not everyone is nice, this guild system would let them group up and far too easily grief people. Now I may not have been making this clear enough, but I'm not against better organizing tool's added to COMMS. BUT owning stations would be too far and allow the behavior that drive's many away from games like happened before to me to happen here. Also if you can't own a base according to many it's not a guild system so why keep advocating the one biggest feature that'd make bully guild's even more of a nuisance than they already are? Oh wait I won't get an answer, at least mot from Cmdr Corran Antillies as his go to deffense is attacking his opposer's and not trying to convince us wgy this wouldn't happen because he know's it would. Either that or he's just trying to start fight's one.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Why would Guilds ruin this game??

Guilds I can live with. I think it would be a severe degrading of the Elite experience but I could definitely deal with that.

Player owned stations are an idea so bad I can't even believe it needs to be debated. It's like asking whether there should be an option for a multi-megaton nuclear bomb weapon in GTA 5, which instantly demolishes the city and kills everyone including the player, because that's more or less what this does.

Elite is, and always has been, a game in which players interact with the universe. We visit stations owned by the local planetary population, whos governance, ethos, and faction status are supposed to determine the makeup and politics of the system. Immersion and roleplay are the ultimate goals of this mechanic.

Guilds in general, and player owning stations in particular, completely change all of this. They convert the game from being about immersion and roleplay into being some sort of quasi-roleplay competitive shooter social-networking space themed MMO. I can say for certain that isn't the game most Elite players want and that isn't the game that Frontier promised us.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Which requires hopping out of the game to interact with it change channels. Instead of just saying no. Keep in mind for some people team speak is not a viable option. Ie they can't speak for whatever reason. So instead of pushing it can be done understand for some people third party is not really viable. Not everyone has a 2nd monitor or a smart phone etc. 3rd party options work great for some people. They don't work for some people for a variety of reasons

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

You put a guild system in the game then you'll have good guild's sure, you'd also give the psycho killer's a simple streamlined way to abuse new player's like I was. Not everyone is nice, this guild system would let them group up and far too easily grief people. Now I may not have been making this clear enough, but I'm not against better organizing tool's added to COMMS. BUT owning stations would be too far and allow the behavior that drive's many away from games like happened before to me to happen here. Also if you can't own a base according to many it's not a guild system so why keep advocating the one biggest feature that'd make bully guild's even more of a nuisance than they already are? Oh wait I won't get an answer, at least mot from Cmdr Corran Antillies as his go to deffense is attacking his opposer's and not trying to convince us wgy this wouldn't happen because he know's it would. Either that or he's just trying to start fight's one.

Which is a pvp problem not a guild problem. You fix this by having actions have real consequences. Not by denying good people tools. The murderous just use third party tools. So you end up diminishing some people's enjoyment and you still have the murderous jerks. Because the communications tools are not the cause or cure. Denying them in game tools do not slow them down in the least. But denying the ingame tools does hamper a lot of people whose enjoyment is lessened by a less capable game. And you guys were supposed to pipe down so we who want Guilds can all say what we want and not be drowned out by you guys.

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[Mohrgan]

Guilds I can live with. I think it would be a severe degrading of the Elite experience but I could definitely deal with that.

Player owned stations are an idea so bad I can't even believe it needs to be debated. It's like asking whether there should be an option for a multi-megaton nuclear bomb weapon in GTA 5, which instantly demolishes the city and kills everyone including the player, because that's more or less what this does.

Elite is, and always has been, a game in which players interact with the universe. We visit stations owned by the local planetary population, whos governance, ethos, and faction status are supposed to determine the makeup and politics of the system. Immersion and roleplay are the ultimate goals of this mechanic.

Guilds in general, and player owning stations in particular, completely change all of this. They convert the game from being about immersion and roleplay into being some sort of quasi-roleplay competitive shooter social-networking space themed MMO. I can say for certain that isn't the game most Elite players want and that isn't the game that Frontier promised us.

I don't think this sentiment is given enough consideration. Elite has always been created to be a niche game from a certain view point. Some players, myself included, are attracted to the current model of the Elite galaxy. The pro-guild side of this is the group asking for never intended content. For this effort to supersede the planned progress of the game, or it's character is no small matter. The fact that Elite blew up and attracted a wider audience shouldn't mean FD needs to pander to the loudest voice, or bigger friends list.

If FD does what it has said it would do, 'make the game we want to play', I'm sure the concerns can and will be satisfied in their own way. I'm counting on FD steering a course that both meets the players needs, and maintain the character of a unique game.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Guilds I can live with. I think it would be a severe degrading of the Elite experience but I could definitely deal with that.

Player owned stations are an idea so bad I can't even believe it needs to be debated. It's like asking whether there should be an option for a multi-megaton nuclear bomb weapon in GTA 5, which instantly demolishes the city and kills everyone including the player, because that's more or less what this does.

Elite is, and always has been, a game in which players interact with the universe. We visit stations owned by the local planetary population, whos governance, ethos, and faction status are supposed to determine the makeup and politics of the system. Immersion and roleplay are the ultimate goals of this mechanic.

Guilds in general, and player owning stations in particular, completely change all of this. They convert the game from being about immersion and roleplay into being some sort of quasi-roleplay competitive shooter social-networking space themed MMO. I can say for certain that isn't the game most Elite players want and that isn't the game that Frontier promised us.

Then play solo and none of this will be a concern for you.

 

[M00ka]

Which requires hopping out of the game to interact with it change channels. Instead of just saying no. Keep in mind for some people team speak is not a viable option. Ie they can't speak for whatever reason. So instead of pushing it can be done understand for some people third party is not really viable. Not everyone has a 2nd monitor or a smart phone etc. 3rd party options work great for some people. They don't work for some people for a variety of reasons

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Oh umm fiddle sticks, the more I read from you the more I am convinced you either don't know what you want or telling us one thing when you want another.
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So lets go through the list:
You can't use the current chat system because it is too tedious to add all your friends
You can't use a third party comms package because you use an occulus and you can't ALT-TAB to see who is online
You have hearing impaired friends so a pure voice system won't work
You (now) have mute friends so a pure voice system won't work
You want to be able to talk/write/send smoke signals to everyone even though only 16 can be in your instance
You don't really want guilds, just guild type tools, guild type structure, guild type play, but you definitely ONLY want better communication tools.
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Let me know if I have it right this time?

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

I don't think this sentiment is given enough consideration. Elite has always been created to be a niche game from a certain view point. Some players, myself included, are attracted to the current model of the Elite galaxy. The pro-guild side of this is the group asking for never intended content. For this effort to supersede the planned progress of the game, or it's character is no small matter. The fact that Elite blew up and attracted a wider audience shouldn't mean FD needs to pander to the loudest voice, or bigger friends list.

If FD does what it has said it would do, 'make the game we want to play', I'm sure the concerns can and will be satisfied in their own way. I'm counting on FD steering a course that both meets the players needs, and maintain the character of a unique game.

How do you k ow it was never intended. They gave us groups and said play it how you want to play...so you claim does not exactly jive with what frontier said or gave us. Frontier has also talked about player owned shops and such so the stations idea even has credence with what ED has talked about.

 

[M00ka]

Then play solo and none of this will be a concern for you.

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Then play GROUPS and none of this will be a concern for you

 

[Mohrgan]

Which is a pvp problem not a guild problem. You fix this by having actions have real consequences. Not by denying good people tools. The murderous just use third party tools. So you end up diminishing some people's enjoyment and you still have the murderous jerks. Because the communications tools are not the cause or cure. Denying them in game tools do not slow them down in the least. But denying the ingame tools does hamper a lot of people whose enjoyment is lessened by a less capable game. And you guys were supposed to pipe down so we who want Guilds can all say what we want and not be drowned out by you guys.

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Again, you think a guild mechanic is more important than the current operation of the game. I would like any new system to affect the current model as little as possible. I would be totally against changing core mechanics of the game to wedge in an overdone cliche. Groups are in the game already. It's been mentioned over and over again. Give them Comm's and let them go.

 

[Stealth Gamer92]

Which is a pvp problem not a guild problem. You fix this by having actions have real consequences. Not by denying good people tools. The murderous just use third party tools. So you end up diminishing some people's enjoyment and you still have the murderous jerks. Because the communications tools are not the cause or cure. Denying them in game tools do not slow them down in the least. But denying the ingame tools does hamper a lot of people whose enjoyment is lessened by a less capable game. And you guys were supposed to pipe down so we who want Guilds can all say what we want and not be drowned out by you guys.

- - - Updated - - -

I've not once said I was against the "tool's" just the player/guild owned station's. Giving a guild territory with a capitol is a dangerous move as it encourage's the PvP you already concede is an issue.

 

[Mohrgan]

How do you k ow it was never intended. They gave us groups and said play it how you want to play...so you claim does not exactly jive with what frontier said or gave us. Frontier has also talked about player owned shops and such so the stations idea even has credence with what ED has talked about.

Before I bought the game I checked it out. There is a ton of info on the early debates about the way certain parts of the game should happen. I saw videos of DB explaining his plans for Elite. There really is a great deal of material that let's me gauge certain things. Even recently when FD mentioned help for player groups was coming, almost immediately after someone said 'but, no guilds'. We'll see.

 

[Fire70]

You put a guild system in the game then you'll have good guild's sure, you'd also give the psycho killer's a simple streamlined way to abuse new player's like I was. Not everyone is nice, this guild system would let them group up and far too easily grief people. Now I may not have been making this clear enough, but I'm not against better organizing tool's added to COMMS. BUT owning stations would be too far and allow the behavior that drive's many away from games like happened before to me to happen here. Also if you can't own a base according to many it's not a guild system so why keep advocating the one biggest feature that'd make bully guild's even more of a nuisance than they already are? Oh wait I won't get an answer, at least mot from Cmdr Corran Antillies as his go to deffense is attacking his opposer's and not trying to convince us wgy this wouldn't happen because he know's it would. Either that or he's just trying to start fight's one.

Fair enough but given the fact the game is peer 2 peer I don't think it you would have an Eve type scenario.

One advantage of a clan (I'm from WOT) is you would get visibility so if you see a player you can tell straight away if he is from a bully clan (using the assumption the clan tag would show (and it should)), now you just know there is a CMDR in your instance.

Guilds I can live with. I think it would be a severe degrading of the Elite experience but I could definitely deal with that.

Player owned stations are an idea so bad I can't even believe it needs to be debated. It's like asking whether there should be an option for a multi-megaton nuclear bomb weapon in GTA 5, which instantly demolishes the city and kills everyone including the player, because that's more or less what this does.

Elite is, and always has been, a game in which players interact with the universe. We visit stations owned by the local planetary population, whos governance, ethos, and faction status are supposed to determine the makeup and politics of the system. Immersion and roleplay are the ultimate goals of this mechanic.

Guilds in general, and player owning stations in particular, completely change all of this. They convert the game from being about immersion and roleplay into being some sort of quasi-roleplay competitive shooter social-networking space themed MMO. I can say for certain that isn't the game most Elite players want and that isn't the game that Frontier promised us.

I'm not sure how different Guilds would be to the current powers in reality.

Given the galaxy is so big I bet every possible player could have his/her own solar system and nobody would be non the wiser so I'm not sure if Guilds owning stuff would be a huge problem, as long as you knew who was where.

I think it would really depend on how things was implemented.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Pro-guild guys. Let's see if we can get some consensus from you as to what exactly you want and why.

1) What exactly do you want?
in order
see who is in my group and see if they are on line
a guild private chat channel
an officers channel.

I think if implemented right a guild station could be fun. You can set them up so that guilds are encouraged to make them open to other players. Maybe guild members get a cut of the profits the station makes etc.

I want to be able to be a member of multiple groups and do all.of the above with all of them in one session. No reas on the interface can't sup port that. That way I can be in a aisling angels group as well as 8th dragons etc.

I would like to see pvp actions have consequences. Like the higher your bounty the less likely you can doc and the farther that wanted status goes. If you get wanted by a major faction with a high enough you have a bounty in all of that factions system. Apply same for powers. The wild west was tamed by giving bad guys no where to hide.



2) Why do you want it?

So I can play with my group more. Easier to wing up to trade or do combat zones or bounty hunt. Sometimes I want to run with a pack. Sometimes I want to lone wolf. Both options shold be available to players and should be just as valid. Play your way should be possible. Currently playing solo is the only easy option.

Please, be as clear and concise as possible.

Everyone else, can you lie low for a little while until these important questions are answered?

Thank you. A thousands times thank you.

I think you missed some sort of in-game identification as well no? Similar to what we have for powers/powerplay.

But to be honest, assuming you are being honest with your desires (ie: grouping not ganking ) I really don't see anything too objectional here.

To be honest, i'd like your first two points for powerplay as well, hell, i'd even be cool with an "officers" channel (ie: rank 5) for power play, so i can't even be against that.

I understand the fear some people have that guilds will ruin certain aspects of the game (eg: making some areas no-go territories) but FD can always wield executive power if a guild gets too big for their boots. I'm sure many of us here do not want the EvE environment, although thanks to mode switching, it shouldn't be major problem.

I won't address your comments about stations right now, because its a separate issue really (although can be tied to guilds) and i really wish this thread hadn't conflated the topics. One topic at a time

Other pro-guild people, please, give your input.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

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Oh umm fiddle sticks, the more I read from you the more I am convinced you either don't know what you want or telling us one thing when you want another.
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So lets go through the list:
You can't use the current chat system because it is too tedious to add all your friends
You can't use a third party comms package because you use an occulus and you can't ALT-TAB to see who is online
You have hearing impaired friends so a pure voice system won't work
You (now) have mute friends so a pure voice system won't work
You want to be able to talk/write/send smoke signals to everyone even though only 16 can be in your instance
You don't really want guilds, just guild type tools, guild type structure, guild type play, but you definitely ONLY want better communication tools.
.
Let me know if I have it right this time?

I consider that other people have different needs that are not solved by third party tools.

I also know that not everyone in my guild uses teamspeak. I also know not everyone can use a voice chat program. They might be deaf. I also know some people cannot use voice chat because they have other people around them who they would disturb.

So while you are going on and on being a jerk, I have taken the time to consider the problem and how it effects different people. The solution that helps the most people is an in game communication system that shows what members of the various groups are online and allows you to group chat with them or private chat with them...

Deaf people could use this. People with a single screen can use this. People with multiple monitors could use it. People with an oculus could use it.

But I guess you only consider what you want and that is the only viable way to play...so much for play it your way.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have a question for those who desire a monetary perk coupled with a player owned station. 10% cut from profits, 10% discount on something.

Wasn't the whole idea a more ideological one? If players owned things they'd be more engaged in the whole process? If you start including: gimme the monies, that would detract from the ideological argument. Then the perceived motivator becomes greed. So my advice to guild proponents is to focus on the aspect of being more engaged.

edit: And I feel that a larger percentage than is represented in the poll is in favour of: Guilds but no limited player-owned stations, going by earlier discussions in other threads. It sure as heck felt like more than 10% desired this option.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Then play solo and none of this will be a concern for you.

So you want to commandeer a mode and take it from others? Nice...

...even if I was fine with that, it would be a concern to me if I was having to dock at player owned stations - that would rip me right out of my immersion. Unless you're saying that solo and open modes become completely separate, with separate background simulations etc? Frontier have stated, in no uncertain terms, that will never happen. So if that's your ultimate request you might as well ask them to send you a new Lotus while you're at it.

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I'm not sure how different Guilds would be to the current powers in reality.

One of the powers is run by a man called Zachary Hudson, a militaristic general who believes that might makes right and grew up in the Federation. That works in Elite.

A guild might be led by "teh v!4gr4 lol!!", leader of the strawberry pies of menace, who have a station called "roxxorz_my_boxxorz".

If that becomes a part of this game then I'll uninstall it so fast I'll probably set a new world record.

EDIT: Furthermore, if guilds aren't that different as you say then there is no need to waste developer time implimenting them is there? Let them just play powerplay.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Thank you. A thousands times thank you.


I understand the fear some people have that guilds will ruin certain aspects of the game (eg: making some areas no-go territories) but FD can always wield executive power if a guild gets too big for their boots. I'm sure many of us here do not want the EvE environment, although thanks to mode switching, it shouldn't be major problem.

You fix this by making actions have real consequences. The wild west was ended by the telegraph. So if you get a wanted status and you do more bad actions that status should start speading to neighboring systems. And potentially faction wide. Get a high enough bounty and stations should start refusing docking requests. Piracy was ended in the carribean by destroying their land havens. Denying pirates docking privileges does this. Pro piracy powers are a haven for these people. But they would be herded to those systems. Just like in the real world.