Trade Logging?

[Samosa]

USA - but California, which is kind of a separate country culture-wise within the USA, and Northern California origin which is very different from what I now call the LA crowd, despite now being located in sunny, always no real weather SoCal.

You have UC Berkeley there, right? Definitely a different culture from some other parts of America. I'm from London, moved here twenty-something years ago (hoping to move back next year - anyone hiring programmer / automation / integration types?). My move to the US was mostly organized by calling a phone exchange in South America (I think...), sending 2400/2600Hz signals down the line and then calling the US for "free". I doubt that still works. A bannable offense, no doubt.

 

[jacozilla]

You have UC Berkeley there, right? Definitely a different culture from some other parts of America. I'm from London, moved here twenty-something years ago (hoping to move back next year - anyone hiring programmer / automation / integration types?). My move to the US was mostly organized by calling a phone exchange in South America (I think...), sending 2400/2600Hz signals down the line and then calling the US for "free". I doubt that still works. A bannable offense, no doubt.

Go Bears!

Well, not really. I did my undergrad at Cal but definitely did not identify with the hippy artsy thing that is the commune we call Berkeley. I shut up, graduated, and did law school over on the 'good' side of the peninsula, Stanford.

I think people once they realize the USA is as diverse a culture as basically this forum, will understand why we can't agree with outsiders when we can't even agree internally on almost nothing. Except for the hate for lawyers

Everyone agrees we are the scum of the earth.

 

[Samosa]

I think people once they realize the USA is as diverse a culture as basically this forum, will understand why we can't agree with outsiders when we can't even agree internally on almost nothing. Except for the hate for lawyers

Everyone agrees we are the scum of the earth.

I like lawyers. They take care of all the paperwork I really have no interest in dealing with.

Anyway, hopefully all this "logging" nonsense will fizzle out. Surely there are bigger fish to fry, battles to be chosen, etc. etc. idioms.

 

[Cmdr Rhott Roe]

Seems to me that if a CMDR wants to get out of the station THE HARD WAY then go for it. I, for one, can launch and be outside of Mass long before I could log out and back in and I'm flying the slowest ship in my fleet. Not in exploit in my opinion but perhaps a bit of a nimrod move. Knock yourself out if that gets the job done for you...less traffic in the slot for me.

 

[Dhan]

The former, not the latter. I will reiterate I have never said nor intend to defend trade logging as a 'good' thing, but no - it's not an exploit because I don't agree with your definition, as you do not with mine.

On a purely logic 101 basis - yes, if I agree that: "an unintended use of game mechanics to try to gain an advantage" = exploit;
then yes, I would agree trade logging falls into that definition. That's a logical conclusion that follows that premise.

However, I don't agree with the premise, that logging out within the space of the station and then reappearing outside the hyper point is unintended. FD specifically and intentionally made logging out hovering inside station = intended re-log outside hyper point of station.

you and I can agree - and for my part I do agree that is a BAD implementation, and a BAD idea to do it that way - but at least for my part, it is very clear that FD themselves coded it that way, the function works exactly as intended that way, and therefore using it is any player's right to use ANY existing game mechanic to gain an advantage, including knowing things like with current game mechanic, NPCs are not persistent.

NPC not persistent is why people log out at res sites. The intended function of logout-outside-station is to store spatial coordinates and return to same coordinates at login - but the side effect of this is that at login, NPCs are regenerated because the existing game mechanic is NPCs are not persistent. For this same reason, I don't call res logging an exploit either - players could fly out of the asteroid field, then fly back in - being able to RESET an instance is clearly in my mind an intended FD design decision - otherwise players would not be able to fly out and fly back in to have new RNG and new opponents.

But the way min/max players are taking advantage of that is similar to trade logging - they are using the intended and totally correct function of logout outside station, preserving their spatial position on re-log, but knowing the side effect of other game mechanic - NPCs not persistent - will give them the advantage of a totally reset res site.

Whether the reappearing at hyper for logout within station space or logout in same spatial coordinates when logging outside of station space is a good mechanic, bad mechanics, not well balanced - those are all topics that can be debated on my part without calling it an exploit. I've admitted it is my (and others) definition - I don't claim omnipotent declaration powers why this definition is more worthy than another.

What I do claim is that IF you agree with the logical construct of my premise, then my conclusion is understood - just as I understand your conclusion, but just don't agree with the premise.

,
You are ignoring important context in your analysis by saying "logging out inside and logging in outside," paraphrasing there of course. There is more going on than just that, namely, the motive. People are logging out inside and logging in outside in order to circumvent the time and possibly danger with flying out of the station. That's the "unintended" part of the equation in my eyes.

And I agree that this is all because of an implementation issue that can be avoided. For trade logging it should be easy. If you log out inside the station, the game already knows when this is the case since you get the atmosphere restored noticed, then you'll be placed in an open landing pad when you log back in, like others have said.

The same thing applies to RES logging in order to clear the site. You could go out (just like you can fly out of the station in the other example) and back in, or you could log out and back in and save yourself the time in a manner that I would also imagine to be unintended by the devs.

Like I said, the impact of the "use of mechanics in question", as I'll call it, has no bearing on whether or not it is an exploit.

 

[Samosa]

Like I said, the impact of the "use of mechanics in question", as I'll call it, has no bearing on whether or not it is an exploit.

Call it an exploit, call it a hack, but it's whether or not there must be a negative connotation to whatever you decide to call it that blows minds.

My wife asked me to make her a mint julep the other day. I didn't have any bourbon, but I did have some nice small-batch rye. Some would consider this sacrilege, but she enjoyed the result very much. Sometimes one just has to make do.

 

[Dhan]

...I think the line is drawn somewhere around whether other people's days are being spoiled by one's behavior.

If I glitch inside a wall and am able to shoot other players all day long without any risk to myself, well, that's definitely a harmful exploit.

If I just can't be bothered to watch the same animation and skip a few seconds of repetitive flight that I've played out a hundred times in the past week, in a solo environment, in which my impact on the background simulation is absolutely, undeniably negligible, well, then... That's a minor hack and harms nobody.

Edit: This is somewhat irrelevant, but I'd be really interested to know the country of origin of those who feel one way or another. I'd be willing to bet that the results would be very curious indeed.

That has more to do with the punishment that is warranted than anything else. An exploit that has a big impact on other players should be bannable. An exploit that has a very small impact on anything might not be bannable but that would not change the fact that it is an exploit.

Would I consider trade logging bannable, probably not. But if such a system were in place, I would issue warnings to the person doing it. If they ignore the warnings and keep doing it then I'd consider banning them.

 

[jacozilla]

Call it an exploit, call it a hack, but it's whether or not there must be a negative connotation to whatever you decide to call it that blows minds.

My wife asked me to make her a mint julep the other day. I didn't have any bourbon, but I did have some nice small-batch rye. Some would consider this sacrilege, but she enjoyed the result very much. Sometimes one just has to make do.

Somewhere in Louisville, KY - an outraged southerner is reading this and screaming - Heathen!!

Say you didn't use spearmint as the preferred mint and there'll be a hangin come dawn.....

 

[Samosa]

That has more to do with the punishment that is warranted than anything else. An exploit that has a big impact on other players should be bannable. An exploit that has a very small impact on anything might not be bannable but that would not change the fact that it is an exploit.

Would I consider trade logging bannable, probably not. But if such a system were in place, I would issue warnings to the person doing it. If they ignore the warnings and keep doing it then I'd consider banning them.

Alright, let's try this one on you. You've probably heard of the term "desire path":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path

"The path usually represents the shortest or most easily navigated route between an origin and destination."

Consider the possibility that "trade logging" is a desire path. Now, there's two ways to look at this - either be the kind of city planner who yells at those who walk on the grass and keeps reseeding without any end in sight, or:

"In Finland, planners are known to visit their parks immediately after the first snowfall, when the existing paths are not visible. People naturally choose desire paths, clearly marked by their footprints, which can be then used to guide the routing of new purpose-built paths."

If enough people prefer to take a different path than the original design, perhaps the new path is the most desirable and the game code should be modified accordingly.

Somewhere in Louisville, KY - an outraged southerner is reading this and screaming - Heathen!!

Say you didn't use spearmint as the preferred mint and there'll be a hangin come dawn.....

Fresh spearmint - I'll live to mix another day!

 

[askavir]

THese guys are not harming other peoples games, nor taking advantage over anyone else, so talking about punishment or banning is overly exaggerated.

They're doing it for one of two reasons, and none of them affect other players:

-Because they are incapable of passing through the "mail slot" without crashing (the docking computer only works on the way in, not the way out)
-Because they are "playing" Elite on autopilot, and they don't want to be bothered by having to actually do any "playing" themselves.

So banning or punishement? Don't think is deservable or worth it.

 

[Carro]

Ah...logging.

Never a day goes by without me logging. Let's see now...

First of all I log into a session of Elite: Dangerous...

Check the bulletin board for some combat missions. Pick a few. Not enough...so let's do some bulletin board logging! Exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! More combat missions! Scoop 'em up, scoop 'em up. Hmm... still not enough, so round we go again...Exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! More missions. Scoop 'em up, scoop 'em up. Got enough yet? Nope one more time...

And so let's exit the station. Can't be bothered, so let's launch and then....yep...exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! I'm outside the station! (Handy really since I had those illicit goods in the hold).

Off we go for a day's work in the Resource Extraction Site. Enter the RES to kill some pirates...wait! What? A Sidewinder? An Adder? Not my style! And so...Exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. What have we got now? Hmmm...an Adder, a Sidewinder...double pants! Once more unto the breach - exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Ah, a Python, now that's more like it!

And after a hard day's work at the RES off I go back to the station to cash in my 15 million credits. What's that? What the...!? Interdicted by a harmless Sidewinder NPC. No time for that! So...exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! Pest control.

And, at the end of a hard day, I log off, with a few million more credits in my account for my third Anaconda.

I love this game. ;-)

 

[Dhan]

Alright, let's try this one on you. You've probably heard of the term "desire path":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_path

"The path usually represents the shortest or most easily navigated route between an origin and destination."

Consider the possibility that "trade logging" is a desire path. Now, there's two ways to look at this - either be the kind of city planner who yells at those who walk on the grass and keeps reseeding without any end in sight, or:

"In Finland, planners are known to visit their parks immediately after the first snowfall, when the existing paths are not visible. People naturally choose desire paths, clearly marked by their footprints, which can be then used to guide the routing of new purpose-built paths."

If enough people prefer to take a different path than the original design, perhaps the new path is the most desirable and the game code should be modified accordingly.



Fresh spearmint - I'll live to mix another day!

If the developers saw it as beneficial to update the game around this issue/concept whatever you want to call it, then yes. But it's their game so playing the role of the city planner would make a lot more sense here.

Ah...logging.

Never a day goes by without me logging. Let's see now...

First of all I log into a session of Elite: Dangerous...

Check the bulletin board for some combat missions. Pick a few. Not enough...so let's do some bulletin board logging! Exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! More combat missions! Scoop 'em up, scoop 'em up. Hmm... still not enough, so round we go again...Exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! More missions. Scoop 'em up, scoop 'em up. Got enough yet? Nope one more time...

And so let's exit the station. Can't be bothered, so let's launch and then....yep...exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! I'm outside the station! (Handy really since I had those illicit goods in the hold).

Off we go for a day's work in the Resource Extraction Site. Enter the RES to kill some pirates...wait! What? A Sidewinder? An Adder? Not my style! And so...Exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. What have we got now? Hmmm...an Adder, a Sidewinder...double pants! Once more unto the breach - exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Ah, a Python, now that's more like it!

And after a hard day's work at the RES off I go back to the station to cash in my 15 million credits. What's that? What the...!? Interdicted by a harmless Sidewinder NPC. No time for that! So...exit to main menu, wait a min, and log back in. Yay! Pest control.

And, at the end of a hard day, I log off, with a few million more credits in my account for my third Anaconda.

I love this game. ;-)

The inhumanity!

 

[Schmack]

What's important here is that we are all shoulder to shoulder, marching to the goal and that no one gets an unfair second head start. What's that? There's no goal? That can't be, else all the "unfair solo play" threads wouldn't exist. Certainly there's a goal. I'll see you there, not ahead of me or behind me, but we shall cross the line together, in group lock step, and the theme from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" shall play, and we shall levitate and go inverted, H-E-L-L-O...

 

[Rimsplitter]

The major issue here that has only briefly been touched on is the danger of being scanned and fined on the way out of a station (if you don't boost straight through the portal). As a professional smuggler I consider the fines a cost of doing business. If someone else evades all exit scans and fines by logging then over time they would make a lot more money than me for the same trips. Plus they will never lose their ship and cargo in a tragic fireball mishap. That difference in revenue over time is tantamount to counterfeiting, and it causes inflation. People will shrug their shoulders at the idea that causing inflation robs other people, but creating inflation through counterfeiting is how Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimon et al got to be billionaires.

The punishment shouldn't be banning though - these crooks did pay for the game after all. Just confiscate all their ships and cash and let them start again. They will never repent, so just keep sending them back to Sidewinders.

 

[Carro]

(never mind)