Why is everybody complaining how much of a "grind" Elite is if every other MMORPG is exactly the same?

[Geldonyetich]

And I'm just getting started ...

Sure, there's definitely room for emergent gameplay, and ideas such as these are a good start.

The question is more along the lines of if Braben and Co can and will spare the time and effort towards implementing this level of emergence, or if they have a better idea of doing this in mind. Honestly, sometimes it seems we're better off doing it ourselves instead of waiting for AAA companies to get around to it.

 

[Jason S]

Not everyone is complaining.

 

[FSRedWing]

I wouldn't look to MMOs to compare Elite to because here, there is no actual motivation for it. If I grind for something in say WoW, then it's because it will enable me to do different content, make my character look different or just be a fun gimmick that I strangely want to have, even if it doesn't advance my character in any way.

Nothing of that is true in Elite. The only thing the grind does here is allow me to do more of the same, just more efficient.
But that's ok because it's the premise of the game - a sandbox in space.

That however is also its problem. It's a sandbox with comparatively few toys, only one way to acquire them (purchase in a station) and no meaningful interaction between me, my toys and the universe at large.
Looking at X3 (which was mentioned here before), I get the same kind of sandbox - but with many more (and more varied) toys, different means of acquiring them and consequences of me using them.

To give just the best examples of ideas Elite could take from it:
- finding rare parts and ships in far away corners of the universe (be that prototypes, stuff from a faction that doesn't deal with outsiders or alien races)
- fleet-building and the option to have AI flying your other ships, doing whatever you want them to do
- player-owned stations
- an actual, dynamic economy, influenced by player trade and stations
- capital ships/carriers (that you can fly into combat, obviously)
- capturing damaged ships after combat (would be required to obtain some ships)

Even with these additions, Elite would still be a sandbox... but one that's a lot more fun to play in.

 

[Cosmos]

Because we didn't want this to be an MMO, we wanted an elite with multiplayer attached.

Hmm no doubt some people agree but I wouldn't say *we* didn't want an mmo. I think it is fair to say that the community is totally polarised when it comes down to what ED should be :/ And by the looks of it so is FD.

 

[gudlbua]

To OP: There is a huge difference there.

Standard MMOs are WAY more complex than Elite: many more abilities (Like 30-40 on an average MMO at max level (some that do vastly different stuff than others, different skil trees, different classes), more interesting quests (if only barely), epic Boss fights, crafting, different roles in combat (healer, tank, dd , disabler), meaningful progression towards an end-game... all in addition to the grind, so it becomes more bearable. And near max level there is some sort of pretty hard end-game that takes a while to get the hang of but feels quite rewarding if done right.
Furthermore, that's not what I want a space sim to be like. It just wasn't advertised as the standard MMO experience. Multiplayer yes, but a standard MMO? I would never have bought this game...


I am not defending the grind in MMOs, I am just stating why Elite is worse... I actually have come to hate the MMO-way of playing. It's that Elite does it even worse than your standard MMO due to the lack of options and that's a real shame. Trading. Shooting the same type of enemy (either conflict zones or bounty hunting or pirating). Mining. Exploring. And all of these get easier the higher "tier" of ship you go, because no System is harder than another, there is simply no variation to this recipe.
And that's all there is and each one can be experienced to it's full extent in maybe 1-3 hours, trading in a lot less (including smuggling, rare goods trading and the standard trade run).

 

[Cradle2Grave]

Cos there's only a few different things to do.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Cos there's only a few different things to do.

I can sit on my motorbike, ride it someplace. It's a grind as I only have a couple of controls to operate, there is only go and stop, and my only progress indicator is the fuel gauge dropping and the odometer going up. Grind grind grind, why do I take part in such a senselessly grinding activity?

 

[Tarman]

I can sit on my motorbike, ride it someplace. It's a grind as I only have a couple of controls to operate, there is only go and stop, and my only progress indicator is the fuel gauge dropping and the odometer going up. Grind grind grind, why do I take part in such a senselessly grinding activity?

Thanks for a stellar example to jump from. You forgot the scenery and the travel and the satisfaction of vehicle operation in an open and engaging environment; critical components in the enjoyment of your bike. Try that in a wind tunnel treadmill with grey walls for the same amount of time and see if it's the same amount of enjoyment.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Scenery and the ride itself matter little if somehow happens to prefer the game of emptying tanks and racking up miles

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Because lots of us never wanted Elite to be like any other terrible, crappy MMORPG.

 

[Tarman]

Scenery and the ride itself matter little if somehow happens to prefer the game of emptying tanks and racking up miles

Much lols were had.

Gastank Simulator 2015. With Odometer Simulator DLC. Now both in metric and Imperial gauges!

 

[Asp Explorer]

Much lols were had.

Gastank Simulator 2015. With Odometer Simulator DLC. Now both in metric and Imperial gauges!

Now I would back that in kickstarter stretch goals include diesel and two-stroke, with separate mixer tank!

 

[Sevanje]

I can say that I enjoyed this game for the money that I gave. But I sadly expected more, especially from mining mechanics.
We already have tools in this "sandbox", but they are so fatuously simple, that make the so called grind fell foolish.
New ships are really fancy and all, but that is all that I get, yes some names for my rank and some kindness from those green stations too. Of course you could use your imagination to fill the gaps but those holes are not small. I already saw X3 mentioned quite a few times, and I must say that I agree with what has been said about it.

 

[Cradle2Grave]

I can sit on my motorbike, ride it someplace. It's a grind as I only have a couple of controls to operate, there is only go and stop, and my only progress indicator is the fuel gauge dropping and the odometer going up. Grind grind grind, why do I take part in such a senselessly grinding activity?

You can stop your bike and interact with the world around you.... ? Maybes?

 

[Ralph Vargr]

There is room for emergent gameplay everywhere:

RES sites: You kill a pirate attacking a miner; he thanks you and drops off some of his cargo. Maybe he contacts you later for paid escort. Future contact and now you're a regular until he is killed by pirates or YOU!!!

Mining: You mine an asteroid; an unknown artifact or element is uncovered. You bring it back to station for analysis. After some time you are contacted and told the artifact has properties similar to another artifact another *player/s* has found. You are tasked with taking the artifact to a research outpost where the items can be studied. Data collated points to a system of origin. Now you can work together with your new friends to uncover the mystery, possibly a deadly one!

Exploration: You stumble across an Earth-like planet; it seems like there is a transmission coming from the surface. You have just stumbled across a marooned pilot. He tells you he can get into orbit in his escape pod. You track down his signal-source and pick him up. He says that he lives in system x and will gladly pay you for rescuing him but you also learn he is wanted with bounty in system y. Choices. Btw, he has friends who don't forget or forgive.

Combat Zones: You help *clear* a combat zone; you are thanked by the admiral of the faction you fought for. He asks you for your assistance in a very important mission. You are to take a wing of his best pilots and intercept the surviving officer of the opposing faction who barely escaped. He cannot make it back with the intel he has. You intercept him and fall into an impossible trap! Do you try to kill him before you run or report back with failure. Your actions affect the balance of ships in future CZ's for a time. Success means the members of the wing stay with you until they die.

And I'm just getting started ...

What you need is a game-master.

Good luck with the AI for that.

- - - Updated - - -

Much lols were had.

Gastank Simulator 2015. With Odometer Simulator DLC. Now both in metric and Imperial gauges!

DLC for the US version?

 

[Tarman]

DLC for the US version?

Depends. Imperial is DLC for the US version (comes standard in metric), and for the rest of the earth that uses metric, Imperial is the shippable content. Gotta get that DLC coin.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Have the arrival distance the same distance from the surface of the object/Distance from the FSD safety zone.
Have varied effect for arrival based on how far then the corona of the star you are now arriving at
Add a grace period from hyper space backwash or something to allow a ship to make haste out of the roasting zone

So an arrival at a Sol Mass star would be normal.
White Dawns and Neutron stars due to their large No Go Zones still seem like they jump at of no where to puch you in the face if you are unattentive as do cool brown dwarfs
But Giants and such might fill the screen on arrival with turbulence and aurorae surrounding the edge of the frame shift field, and thunder and warning lights

In short, bigger the star, more;
Star taking up the screen
Turbulence
Colourful fiery effects around the ship
Strain on the Engine, pitches out of normal operations
Warning lights and klaxons

I would guess that would result in your ship blowing up on arrival since you would overheat drastically.

 

[Ekar]

Creating stuff certainly sounds like freedom of choice and making your own narrative. Minecraft hardly holds your hand at any point of the game

Imo Minecraft is the model to be followed. Yesterday my 3 year old son and I decided to go for a big swim (in Minecraft)... I didn't really expect to find anything at all (just more of those silly squids) but some way out we came across an underwater temple and bizarre puffer-fish like things which were attacking us. Strange things happened and we were even put under a spell of some kind. We were both shocked and delighted. Later on I thought, why can't ED be more like that, where the game meets your thirst for adventure by providing these stepping stones into new experiences?

There's no denying that post launch, ED has focused on rewarding grindy gameplay. It could be because it's all meant to get fleshed out at a later date or maybe it was designed simply to stop people going bananas over a lack of 'content'. The new stuff we have certainly feels rushed, actually I wonder honestly how people can enjoy Powerplay at all... but that's just me. I took one load of 'pamphlets' from Sys A to Sys B and realised I was done with it.

I hope the ED of two years from now is almost unrecognisable from what we have now. It's always been a game of moving things from A to B but I hope more interesting reasons than 'you can get a better ship' are provided at some point. I don't want to be a trader right now because:

Every station I visit is the same on the inside. (it's just pure, in your face repetition)

The things I carry aren't really things which do stuff. (There are no small outposts on the limits of human space which aren't producing because there's no supply, for eg. Everything ticks along, same as ever. Nothing prospers, nothing withers. Civilisation is a well oiled machine, frozen in time)

If those two things were addressed, I'd probably have a ton of fun being a trader.

Rambling post, sorry.

 

[Captain N]

I can sit on my motorbike, ride it someplace. It's a grind as I only have a couple of controls to operate, there is only go and stop, and my only progress indicator is the fuel gauge dropping and the odometer going up. Grind grind grind, why do I take part in such a senselessly grinding activity?

I don't think you quite understand what "grinding" means

 

[Ghostickles]

I can sit on my motorbike, ride it someplace. It's a grind as I only have a couple of controls to operate, there is only go and stop, and my only progress indicator is the fuel gauge dropping and the odometer going up. Grind grind grind, why do I take part in such a senselessly grinding activity?

Sunday rides or cross continent? Which would be more grindy, considering each could eventually amount to the same distance, over time.
Perception is a thing. Time vs Reward, a concept some games nail while others miss completely.
Its the difference in the Art, some know all the strokes yet their work appears technical and lifeless, while others impart vivid emotions with apparent ease.