Why is Elite so Epic and the X-series so flat?

It would be amazing if E:D allowed us to create new colonies and space stations (with supreme effort of course), the universe could evolve in ways the original dev team would not have envisaged or have time to do themselves.

Is that in the current spec?

New colonies and space stations will appear as and when explorers start scanning and mapping the uncolonised systems and find stuff worth going there for. But it's going to be the NPC factions and organisations that will be doing the colonising not the player base. Although we will be involved in providing supplies, security, transportation, etc. for the building process. We will be involved but we won't be owning anything.
 
New colonies and space stations will appear as and when explorers start scanning and mapping the uncolonised systems and find stuff worth going there for. But it's going to be the NPC factions and organisations that will be doing the colonising not the player base. Although we will be involved in providing supplies, security, transportation, etc. for the building process. We will be involved but we won't be owning anything.

Agreed... player missions:
Explorer -> finds new planet(s): sells info
  • Offer goes out for Escort of colony ships
  • Offer goes out to disrupt colonisation attempts (rival faction)
  • If successfully colonised, missions appear for supplies, etc...
  • Destruction of colony ships & escort: Info &/or Revenge missions up for grabs
 
I think I missed out on privateer 1&2, from what I read the cutscenes and cast are pretty awesome.

Did anyone play Darkstar One from 2006?

Yup, with the exception of Clive Owen's somewhat wooden acting as Ser Lev Arris (which is unfortunate because he's your character in the game), the cut scenes in Privateer 2 were indeed very cool and they had very high production values for a game, although this is a bit of a double-edged sword and probably the main issue with Privateer 2, in that it is a bit like watching a film where you get to play in it a bit rather than it being a full on game, so oit's difficult to get lost in it as much as the average gamer might prefer to. The upside is that since it was made at a time when 'multimedia' was the big buzz word and as a consequence, decent actors were up for giving this kind of thing a shot, and we end up with some real gems as a result of it. John Hurt as a knowledgeable informant/barman in a dive where Lev Arris goes, does a very compelling characterisation, which is quite obviously drawing on Tolkienesque influences, and he really steals the scenes when doing so.

Obviously there was a fair bit of greenscreening going on, and being that the game dates from 1996 - when After Effects was not the superbly capable PP product it is today - the CGI isn't up to today's standards, nor is the resolution of those cut scenes, since they all had to fit on less capable computer media. But that said, it was all filmed at Pinewood Studios with at least some set construction involved and it was directed by Chris Roberts. You can get an idea of what the movie bits of Privateer 2 were like from this clip, which features Clive Owen being acted off the screen by both David Warner and Christopher Walken:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET6UEXAmc68

Chris Roberts himself has been (unfairly I think) panned as a director, which is in fact why he retired for a while before returning to the fray to make Star Citizen. Most notably, the criticism levelled at him stems from the Wing Commander full-length movie, which he directed and this has a very similar style to the cut scenes in Privateer 2. I've got the Wing Commander movie on DVD and have watched it several times, alright it ain't Star Wars, but then again, it's better than the three most recent Star Wars prequel movies and it does have some nice innovative sets and props, such as the fighters on the carrier, Tiger Claw, being made from scrapped English Electric Lightning fighters, which does make them look really rather authentic. And even if none of this were the case, being a fellow Mancunian, I refuse to join in any criticism of him! (Roberts is a Yank by birth, but he grew up in Manchester, so he's an honorary northerner as far as I'm concerned lol)

I agree, DarkStar One, is quite a nice game. After all, how could you not like a game named after one of the best and funniest sci-fi films of all time? made by the legendary Alien creator Dan O'Bannon (who is still very sadly missed from the sci-fi world, having died a few years ago).

If anyone is getting impatient awaiting ED, you could do a lot worse than grabbing DarkStar One, it's quite a nice all=rounder - you can be a space dogfighting bounty hunter, you can trade, do various missions in it and upgrade your ship, and it has a fairly decent story line too, so it's got more of an Elite/Frontier feel than the travesty that X Rebirth will ever have. And it's only about a fiver on Steam, which makes it 35 quid less than I wasted on the pile of steaming donkey cr** that X Rebirth is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFH3mfCNdGM
 
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Thanks for the link, quite cool. And very cool for a game. No clue why I never played Privateer 2. Awesome actors who carry the scenes. Never get used to see Christopher Walken as a good guy though :D
I like Clive Owen on screen, mostly because he's "cool", his acting isn't bad in the recent films but far from stellar.
 
so once I had visited all the sectors, built a massive money-making mega-solar-plant factory and earned several billion credits, I was done with X. I don't care for spreadsheet management or building huge fleets. Once a game runs out of new things to discover I loose interest.

I think this is one of the major advantages about a procedural universe, generated missions and events. What kind of "end game" content do you envision for Elite Dangerous?

It seems Star Citizen will have generated missions too, but procedurally generated universes that are dynamic and have some sort of simulation can break free from the linearity. They have to rely on convincing generated story arcs instead of scripted linear story.
E.g. if you managed to blow up a station or even system, the simulation goes on, it does not break the game. Scripted stories always need some kind of "indestructible path" to guarantee player story. Generated stories don't. I really hope ED capitalizes on this and puts effort into generated story arcs, recurring NPC characters that help you and can be included in future generated missions. Choices you make etc.
In a way, the other way who achieved non linear "personal" story is The Sims :D Not from the gameplay rules or setting, but in that you make up your own personal story.

I remember there being some space simulation game advertised recently on steam about where no playthrough is going to be the same. More an adventure or "roguelike" game, but I can't find it again. Generated story events too etc. Never played a roguelike game though. Anyone got any idea of what I mean? :D
 
Interesting read this topic :cool:

I've played Dark star and Privateer 2, thanks for the link 'Chock', that was a blast from the past! :) (I think my copy of Privateer is lingering in a box in the attic).

So...What makes the 'X' series seem flat compared to Elite?
I've thought long and hard over this question, and some of the reasons have already been proposed (which I generally agree with) in the topic.

I think personally for me it would be the background universe in which the games are set. I found it 'very' frustrating that you couldn't interact with any planets in a real sense in the X Universe, although I have to say I enjoyed for the most part the series, and the forums over there. X Rebirth was a final nail in the coffin so to speak in this regard for me, and I'm thankful that Elite Dangerous is almost here to ease the pain! :D
Actually I can sense there's quite a few 'Orphans' of the X Series here already..(I feel the 'Force')...so that's fine too! :D
I've been a fan of the X series from the year 'Dot'. I, like so many others migrated to the X Series after FFE, which seems so long ago now. It's quite a strange (and ironic) feeling to think that Frontier Elite 2 was the start of my experience into the space Sim/Adventure game genre, and now very soon I'll be back (home) to where it all kicked off, in a manner of speaking, many years later.

I have fond memories of the Egosoft forums, as in the early years of the games it was a lively and thriving community, and it had/has many interesting and talented users. I'm still confused and amazed as to why Egosoft decided to produce the current game in the condition it's in now, in fact the words 'Skunk', 'Space Highway', 'Mini Game' and particularly 'Yisha' leave me with the feeling of complete mental torment, so I politely ask any present forum members here (if the situation were to arise) to take this into account when replying to any of my posts, thanks. :D

Jack :)
 
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I think this is one of the major advantages about a procedural universe, generated missions and events. What kind of "end game" content do you envision for Elite Dangerous?

To me Elite never really had an end-game unless you count the mission to deliver secret documents somewhere and the Thargoids attacked the whole way there. I believe the player makes peace with them in FFE. I would love to be the hero who makes first contact with a new species, uncovers a villainous plot and defeats a powerful NPC, or blow up an alien ultimate weapon saving the galaxy, but Elite has always been more 'real' for the player. Those are things I would expect to learn about watching newsfeeds at Ross 248 while getting my Cobra serviced. And we all know how informative those newsfeeds can be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9LdTkR85Q

I'd like to see smaller, more personal victories, so maybe missions which lead to lore/sources/clues, which lead to a special PG feature/location (which leads to suffering/loot!) that no other players or devs have ever seen, and probably never will... unless you post screenies.
 
I did enjoy the x series up to rebirth although I'm very much more looking forward to Elite. I would say that the x-series was more about quantity than quality. The feeling of being in space was not very obvious. I can't remember any times I was blown away with a particular visual or event. The characters and acting were pretty terrible. I guess they were catering for a wider audience with the story (a bit of guidance and progression with direction). I'm hoping Elite will be about quality of visuals/feeling of being in space/AI/multiplayer/economy etc. I really hope there will be times when I'm sitting in space looking at a planet or some kind of spacial anomaly and blown away by it. Planet landing or flying round a planet for me and then heading into space is also one of my high on the list items. For me exploration is about discovering new planets/stars etc and having a visual experience that provokes excitement and curiosity. I hope this is what Elite Dangerous delivers.
 
I did enjoy the x series up to rebirth although I'm very much more looking forward to Elite. For me exploration is about discovering new planets/stars etc and having a visual experience that provokes excitement and curiosity. I hope this is what Elite Dangerous delivers.

I'm pretty sure that is what David Braben wants to deliver. After all he is making the game he always wanted to make and play, as was the case when he made Elite and Frontier, just with a hell of a lot more available options in terms of how he goes about it.

Luckily for me, and for many others it would seem, my idea of the kind of space trading/exploration sim/game I would enjoy playing would seem to coincide with David Braben's. So as far as I can see, the only thing that has changed, is the breadth and scope of what can be done with the presently available technology, thus I am confident that Elite Dangerous will be my cup of tea.

This notion is not dissimilar to Chris Roberts now believing he can make the Wing Commander he really always wanted to, in the form of Star Citizen, or James Cameron making Avatar because the motion capture technology became available to make it doable, not that he wouldn't have loved to have had that available when making Terminator or Aliens.

Where the X series differs for me therefore, since it has had far newer iterations than any Elite variant, is not in what it does with the available technology (not that it exactly pushes the envelope there either) but rather that their vision of what they wanted to make does not coincide with what I want to play. I recall that when I fired up X for the first time - it having been recommended to me by a buddy who played Elite, Frontier, EVE, Freelancer, Wing Commander etc - I instantly thought, 'nah, it's not doing it for me'. That was literally my initial impression of it, but I gave it and several other version of the X series a try. After having played them for a while, I determined that my initial impression was the way I would continue to feel about the X games. Although of course the X series might float some people's boat, because the fact that it didn't appeal to me doesn't make it bad.

But anyway, here's a few things I don't like about the X series:

It's not set in our known universe (this is also an issue i have with other space games too, and it's a big deal for me, because I like that kind of thing);

It's devoid of humour, taking itself far too seriously all the time (Elite and Frontier could never be accused of that, although it might be the difference between a UK developer that makes this so);

I don't like the GUI, it simply does not look like you are in a combat craft, it looks more like you are about to fire up Cubase or something, I want a fighter craft to look like it is a fighter craft in terms of the GUI, gritty and big and clear so you can read stuff easily whilst in battle, and one look at what a real-world combat aircraft interface looks like will confirm that X doesn't pull that off at all);

I don't like the voice acting (it's not as terrible as some games, but it's not great either, in terms of casting or talent, and this is especially so with Rebirth);

I don't like the artwork style of it very much, principally the cockpit layouts and the ship designs (although to be fair, that is actually one of the few good things in Rebirth, where the cockpit is good, even if it does lack functionality, but generally speaking, the ship and cockpit designs in the X series are a bit naff).

On their own, just one of these gripes would not be enough to totally kill a game for me, but in combination, they combine to make the X series lack that vital spark - it is in short, soulless - creating the impression that it was not born out of a burning desire by the developers to do something really cool, created with a real love of what they were making. I can forgive many faults with games, but having no soul is not one of them.
 
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My experience with this genre was privateer. Only it so long ago I don't remember much even if it just one or both. I only know was that I enjoyed it. Wingcommander, Tiefighter do know those but it not the same genre. Home world liked that but also different Genre. But with the Xseries I got this fleet gameplay wich is somewhat RTS like altho not implemented at all but very unfinished part of the game. Freelancer one of the lates big budged space game. And that made it also possible as result of what was deliverd.

After that the Space genre was in coma almost dead. There was Derk smart before X series and along side. And Xseries. But don't forget. These aren't big publisher backeuped big titles. It are small retail independent niche games made by a independend studios. So with limited resources like funding. That the main problem. with huge influence on the result.

Dev that started the genres wel there was a time wenn games was more about programing against a few Kbyte limit. In those time those early game programmer some became the genre starters. And with a lot fame. But in current state all those famous people have it realy difficult.

It is due to kickstarter and thus crowed funding, that this genre get those niche games. But Egosoft did it conventional with limited backup from publisher as B or C graded games.
Wich is far form triple A budged and even those have there problems some even big. Like BF4.

If you cant imagine how could this happen. these desasters. Well go to developer sites. Like Gamasutra or others are the so call dev post mortums articles of games. Read a few dozen sucses and fails and semi sucses fails and you got a Idea what can get wrong. And that a lot. Also lot of books about game design, but also the bussness part game production. wich give also a good Idea what game production for a difficult road to travel is. And so many pitfalls.

There are a few games where the studio had a smooth ride. but that not the norm. 18 hour crunch time is no fun. Altho if you got the publisher back up and deadline like there isn't one. It's done wenn its done, even then, they can fail. I expect more form a triple A funded game. Then some indie studio strungling to get it done with limited resources even not covering the project scale. So to mee Privateer freelancer great but the genre was alive and kicking or just starting to going down hill from high ground. Derksmart lates and Xseries they ware made in the genre dark ages.

Now it looks better. First due to Crhis Roberts showing of decent interest from the public. But not in a way for trowing a big triple A budged on it. DB ED wich is possible due to kickstarter so you don't depend on unwilling publisher who all avoid dead genres or niche markets. I think wenn SC and ED both get very sucsesfull. Maybe publisher are more willing to spend and see it as not that risky they see market for it so the next Egosoft XR2 get more chance of decent funding and get the time to deliver a more finish game.

Publisher act on very recent successes of similar games against those that are pitch to them by studios. Int he current industie to get this attention for triple A potention just one of those games need to sell 10milion units.

With those 50K backers wil not do. That niche market. Thus the sales after release.

so I still think its a niche market.

But at least there is some choice in the genre within the same release frame.
 
Speaking of X rebirth, I got a refund from Steam today.
It took over a month of debating, reopening closed tickets etc,. but they finally relented today.
Nice , now I have $50 in my Steam wallet.
 
So Xseries get bored at one time. That not a problem. Games arent made to play for 10 years. Unless it is busnessmodel aiming for that.
Wow MMO.

Or extend the same game in iteration with feature patches for decade or more.

If ED aims for that so be it. But also means don't expect a Elite 5 before 5 years.

To go for longlivaty but in a extreem way.

Xseries is complex enough to get a 100 to 1000 playhours of game pread over a year or so.

If Elite goes for extreem longlivaty then 1000 to 10000 play hours over decade 10 years.

I rather think Elite longlivaty standards are very un common. But that okay if you wont release a sequel any time soon .

Those who do put sequel in one or two years dont need longlivaty beyond 3 years.

So instead exploring the same game you eplore many games within decade of gaming.

A game that is made for longlivaty depends on DLC income.
 
Games arent made to play for 10 years.

Oh I have to disagree there. I still have active Bards Tale, Eye of the Beholder, Baldur's Gate, Darkside, Avalon, M1 Tank Platoon, Gunship and Armour-Geddon saves that I come back to.

I couldn't play the same game for 10 years solid of course, but there are plenty of very ancient games worth reloading - simply because they are so good fun!
 
Armor-Geddon rulez, played it for years and never got close to completion. I've played few other games, Elite obviously among them, that could match that intensity of battle, every downed vehicle a glorious warrior's death... The variety of freedom of choice in everything, the strategies and tactics you could apply, the simplicity of the controls and interface, the consistent physics yet great variety of vehicles to pilot, and the richness and diversity of their handling models - OFP/Arma follow the same game-style, but for some reason don't do it half as well; many vehicles just aren't that much fun. In Armor-Geddon ALL the vehicles were brilliant, all played to their particular strengths and weaknesses perfectly, you were constantly on the edge of your seat no matter which vehicle you were using or what you were using it for. Epic, sublime, and yet-to-be bettered...
 
X3:Terran Conflict had incredible longevity for me. I played it until I had done everything on a ridiculously long to-do list.

X3 saved my sanity, in fact. Was recovering from a back injury, and it was awesome to have a whole world to hide away in.

My exploration phase took a long time, as the X3:T3 sector map was a big 'un. Completing the giant "Xenon Hub" mission set took ages, and I could then rewire some sector gates and cause all sorts of trouble. Then there was the building of huge ammo factories to feed my thirst for missile frigates, bombers and ship production. Last of all, a base station to call my own, in a sector of my choosing - which needed all the bells and whistles in terms of defense systems.

There was even a way to capture a behemoth of a carrier ship if you played your cards right. It wasn't "meant" to be captured, but if you owned the home base, you could reverse-engineer it and build a properly functioning one. Another toy! That thing let you dock a capital ship and other stuff in one stupidly large package - ready to go and mess up someone's day in a big way.

Oh, man, it was one heck of a game. Loved it.

Maybe I'm just weird, but X3:TC was awe-inspiring in terms of play-time.
 
Oh I have to disagree there. I still have active Bards Tale, Eye of the Beholder, Baldur's Gate, Darkside, Avalon, M1 Tank Platoon, Gunship and Armour-Geddon saves that I come back to.

I couldn't play the same game for 10 years solid of course, but there are plenty of very ancient games worth reloading - simply because they are so good fun!

Well that personal so you are more a retro gamer. I am different wenn i quit a game I rearly start over. Also there are so many games to play so little time.
And I aint so picky. And all those game you mention I don't know.

Retro not my thing. So I am very happy That there come some new space games.
 
So Xseries get bored at one time. That not a problem. Games arent made to play for 10 years. Unless it is busnessmodel aiming for that.
QUOTE]

True. And there certainly are games that have been going for more than ten years by design, notably where space games are concerned, EVE.

But there are plenty that were never intended to play for that long which have been extended by the ingenuity of modders, including Elite and Frontier. And indeed some which have been extensively revamped graphically and in terms of content to keep them going and remaining popular for a huge length of time, for example there are numerous player-made Falcon IV revamps, there is the remarkable Over Flander's Fields made from CFS, several NASCAR revamps and a high res revamp of the old Jane's F/A-18 Hornet, to name but a few.

Moreover, there are still some pretty old flight sims that still stand up fairly well today even without mods, notably B-17 Flying Fortress - the Mighty Eighth and Gunship, both having been made by the long defunct Microprose. Microprose finally ceased to exist in 2002 and that B-17 game, having been made in 2000 is now fourteen years old, but it still plays well and is a very enjoyable and quite in-depth game even today.
 
Armor-Geddon rulez, played it for years and never got close to completion. I've played few other games, Elite obviously among them, that could match that intensity of battle, every downed vehicle a glorious warrior's death... The variety of freedom of choice in everything, the strategies and tactics you could apply, the simplicity of the controls and interface, the consistent physics yet great variety of vehicles to pilot, and the richness and diversity of their handling models - OFP/Arma follow the same game-style, but for some reason don't do it half as well; many vehicles just aren't that much fun. In Armor-Geddon ALL the vehicles were brilliant, all played to their particular strengths and weaknesses perfectly, you were constantly on the edge of your seat no matter which vehicle you were using or what you were using it for. Epic, sublime, and yet-to-be bettered...

Indeed - it's something I would love to see remade properly.

I still have vivid memories of flying a bomber through a valley at night, bombing out the power pylons, and all you could see was the glowing powerlines, tracer flying up at you, the flash of flak and then enemy fighters whizzing past you in a strobe-like effect from the flak flashes.

Just insanely immersive, very impressive Amiga experience. Brilliant fun :)
 
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