Working on it alone *laughs*
just because she is the one that we know doesnt mean, that she is the only one working there.
What do you think, that the whole devteam has just 10 devs?^^
Sarah moved from current project, update no longer coming?
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Working on it alone *laughs*
just because she is the one that we know doesnt mean, that she is the only one working there.
What do you think, that the whole devteam has just 10 devs?^^
This whole 'Thou shall not communicate' thing is very bizarre.
I sort of get it from the dev/publishing perspective where you want to keep your cards hidden much of the time, secrets you prefer to keep in house etc, but for a project that started out as a crowdfunded thing, meant to 'involve' that community that backed it, it does feel off doesn't it?
I used to get an insight into a AAA games company, that developed a very toxic working style, part of which was to kill communication, even within it's own departments, and that was all down to a number of influencial middle managers and their particular personality disorders (a couple of classic cases of sociopath) and the way that ended up shaping whole departments.
I was on the outside looking in, so avoided all the real 'grind' it became for many of the people working there, but i was close to a number of people and the stories they would tell, of bullying, stress, wasted working days etc were legend. In the end they did a big review after i contacted the CEO in person about it, and after about 9 months one of the people that had been causing a lot of issues left, but in general the others closed ranks and over the next six months it became obvious nothing was really going to change, so slowly people started to leave.
They lost a lot of good people, hard workers, those that cared to do a good job etc, and ultimately that big AAA is now on the verge of bowing out of AAA completely. All of that probably down to the simple fact they were 'anti communication', so much so it became a non-functioning company as they could not even communicate properly between themselves to make sure they were doing their jobs properly.
I offer this cautionary tale in the hope that it is not the case for Frontier, but just in case it is, that someone senior enough can maybe see the problem and do something about it before the wheels fall off, if they are indeed in that process.
Talking about your work is not a negative, properly involving your passionate and loyal (for the most part) fan base is not a negative, but stopping your employees that are good at communicating IS a negative and will have wider repurcussions within your organisation. You can hire some professional work coaches if you need to, if this is all part of a deeper seated problem?
Communication is King in any media business, and most companies spend fortunes on promotion and generating buzz and all that, so please don't kill natural communication, you have a player base chomping at the bit to help you promote the game and improve it, it is an assest of the highest quality, use it, embrace it, talk to us (we only bite sometimes!)
I sort of get it from the dev/publishing perspective where you want to keep your cards hidden much of the time, secrets you prefer to keep in house etc, but for a project that started out as a crowdfunded thing, meant to 'involve' that community that backed it, it does feel off doesn't it?
I used to get an insight into a AAA games company, that developed a very toxic working style, part of which was to kill communication, even within it's own departments, and that was all down to a number of influencial middle managers and their particular personality disorders (a couple of classic cases of sociopath) and the way that ended up shaping whole departments.
I was on the outside looking in, so avoided all the real 'grind' it became for many of the people working there, but i was close to a number of people and the stories they would tell, of bullying, stress, wasted working days etc were legend. In the end they did a big review after i contacted the CEO in person about it, and after about 9 months one of the people that had been causing a lot of issues left, but in general the others closed ranks and over the next six months it became obvious nothing was really going to change, so slowly people started to leave.
They lost a lot of good people, hard workers, those that cared to do a good job etc, and ultimately that big AAA is now on the verge of bowing out of AAA completely. All of that probably down to the simple fact they were 'anti communication', so much so it became a non-functioning company as they could not even communicate properly between themselves to make sure they were doing their jobs properly.
I offer this cautionary tale in the hope that it is not the case for Frontier, but just in case it is, that someone senior enough can maybe see the problem and do something about it before the wheels fall off, if they are indeed in that process.
Talking about your work is not a negative, properly involving your passionate and loyal (for the most part) fan base is not a negative, but stopping your employees that are good at communicating IS a negative and will have wider repurcussions within your organisation. You can hire some professional work coaches if you need to, if this is all part of a deeper seated problem?
Communication is King in any media business, and most companies spend fortunes on promotion and generating buzz and all that, so please don't kill natural communication, you have a player base chomping at the bit to help you promote the game and improve it, it is an assest of the highest quality, use it, embrace it, talk to us (we only bite sometimes!)
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See also Josh Atack and Mark Boss.She seemed genuinely interested in engaging with us. And her passion for what she was doing really shone through. I'll miss her AI posts on here
On the other hand Mike Evans has been one on the most honest and engaging devs on the forum and he is still very much alive and well AFAIK.
That's perfectly true.
It doesn't mean they haven't made an incompetant decision does it? Two months of AI work which is, at best, going to be delayed. Pointing out the absurdity in that isn't "mental", it's a public service.
dayrth
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Its a problem when you have an vocal and active dev who is popular. They can be treated a bit like rockstars (there is even a term rockstar developer). So when they have to be reassigned for whatever reason (and if they are using agile methodologies this can happen at very short notice) it can cause upsets in the community.
Having now read the comments and the mention on G+ that she knew it was coming, my guess is that it happened earlier than she expected, didn't get a chance to finish her AI work, and this has upset her because she was heavily invested in it (as i think most devs would be).
I'd give good odds its now all hands on deck for what they are going to announce at gamescom, and once that is delivered, they might let the mistress of minions return to her AI work.
Pure conjecture, but there again, most of this thread is
All of this thread is conjecture, but I think this is the most convincing I've read so far. I hope it is correct.
How do we know how competent the decision is when we do not know what is going on in the company ?
This whole 'Thou shall not communicate' thing is very bizarre.
I sort of get it from the dev/publishing perspective where you want to keep your cards hidden much of the time, secrets you prefer to keep in house etc, but for a project that started out as a crowdfunded thing, meant to 'involve' that community that backed it, it does feel off doesn't it?
[...]
Communication is King in any media business, and most companies spend fortunes on promotion and generating buzz and all that, so please don't kill natural communication, you have a player base chomping at the bit to help you promote the game and improve it, it is an assest of the highest quality, use it, embrace it, talk to us (we only bite sometimes!)
Absolutely! All the games I spent most of my time in were either already complete (as in nobody was working on it) or they were in constant development (like Elite) and they had proper communication with their fan base. Games with companies that excluded their community got very boring or frustrating really fast. I think it's often forgotten that games often generate a hobby, a passion, they aren't just used and then put back, like other products. Once you start getting people personally involved, you need to work with them like human beings and not just wallets. (Not trying to say FD is going for that extreme, but you get what I mean.)
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Just because you and others think it may be an incompetent move does not mean it is. More drama. It just means you don't know what has happened. From what has been said by SJA the work is not going to waste, just that she has been asked to work on something else - Maybe a project that has to be finished before the improved AI can be released but non of you want to consider this you'd sooner be all doom and gloom.
Like I said before, we do not work for FD, we are not share holders, we have NO right to know. As for the work being delayed - did you ever have a release date for it? No.
So to sum this up:
You are upset that something has happened and you don't know what it is.
For this to lead to a 39 page thread of QQ'ing IS Mental!!!
Even from an economic POV, this looks like a panic decision, 2 month of work put on hold? they could have let her wrap it up and include it into the next patch, It can't be worse compare to what we got now, can it? or let someone else polish it and then release. The best PR comes from the ground up, if people are happy you don't need to spend huge amounts of money selling your product.
If this has been known for sometime, the execution was poorly made for sure.
Looking in from the outside, it certainly makes ZERO sense to me: She's just spent the last 2 months (?) improving AI code, and now they've wasted all that by shelving it indefinitely. Thus novice players will continue to complain about horribly difficult AI, while veterans will continue to complain about far-too-easy AI. And to top it off, she was doing a better job at customer PR than just about anyone else, but now she's effectively silenced.
I really have to wonder what FD's management are thinking. The only potentially-good explanation I can thinking of is that she was desperately needed to get a future major update on-track & working. All FD would need to do is say that (without explaining what the update is) to appease most of the player base, but given FD's typically terrible PR track record I am doubting they'll bother.
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a) I don't wish to berate Sarah for being active on the forums, but generally speaking, it probably wasn't her role - after all, she is (was?) an AI coder.
b) Frontier lack a dedicated community manager - someone to relay information between developers and the community. THAT person should be active like crazy on the forums.
c) The person from b) should be the one to relay information from Sarah...
b) Frontier lack a dedicated community manager - someone to relay information between developers and the community. THAT person should be active like crazy on the forums.
c) The person from b) should be the one to relay information from Sarah...
Because we know perfectly well what's going on with the game.
Correct.
It's an incompetent move because pulling an AI programmer off AI on a project which desperately needs AI is incompetent, not because I think it is.
Again correct have no right to know anything. I am not claiming that right though.
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That sucks, decent AI opponents would have been the one reason for me to take another look at the "game".
And how in the blazes did I get to 57 notifications? Don't people read what I put in my profile?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but everything I have read tells me you have never heard of customer relations or at least don't realize how it works. People are emotional beings, especially when they get personally involved in something. Games like Elite are not just a normal product, that is used when needed and then put back.
I personally am not upset about what happened, simply irritated. However I can very well understand why people might be upset.
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If a company promises me that it will deliver walnuts, and then brings me bananas, I am going to wonder whether or not the company know what they're doing.
Frontier promised us an immersive and interactive living universe where we can blaze our own trail. They're delivering World of Warcraft in space only with a boardgame add on that has the popular slogan "You don't have to play it!"
EDIT: I should point out I love Frontier, but I'm starting to feel like that love is not reciprocated, and it's making it hard to keep on lovin'
If they talked to us more, as human beings, rather than just dancing around with this "super secret cool project!" crap before delivering up something that just adds to the feeling that they don't really care about the game anymore then I might get that feeling back. Moving the only communicative developer off a vitally important aspect of the game wasn't the way to allay my fears.
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
This is an interesting perspective, and is nailed on 100% what you would expect from a huge company.
However.........
IMO FD kind of drummed up interest on the kickstarter by playing heavily on the small team of devs with a passion, and (to my mind at least and maybe you will say I was reading into stuff which was just not there!) was pulling on the heart (purse
) strings of those of us who remembered when games were bedroom projects by a handful of guys....So in the spirit of mega corp I agree..... But personally I always liked to (and I agree it is probably totally unrealistic of me) to hold FD to a higher level than that, and thought of them more as a close knit group of devs who dared to go it their own way, even if in some respects they were slightly less professional and a little hap hazzard about it. With this in mind I liked the fact that the devs would liaise with the "rabble" as it were. I suppose it is the difference between a rock star who performs at wembly arena and one who performs at a small venue and drinks with the fans afterwards - something which staff of FD have to some extent been pretty good with over all!.
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True it wasn't her role, however she did it and loved it. You also clearly see that people liked that she actually did talk to the community. This could easy have been controlled.
Sure she can talk to the community, however before she does, it must run though HR\PR\ manager and clear lines of what can or cannot be talked about established.
That would be a win-win for frontier.
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