Frontier: Please work on the game AI

[Mr_Jim]

Indeed. Elite's AI is the sole embodiment of System Security related risk.

Without effective AI, a "Low Security" system means nothing, as the risk of being interdicted by a weak "pirate pilot" is no risk at all. All a low-security tag means is that you could be bothered by the in-flight equivalent of unsolicited door-knockers.

Ditto for "PowerPlay opposing agents", although I'm trying very hard indeed to pretend PP doesn't exist in my game world.


Ineffective AI devalues a host of other in-game mechanics. Effective AI makes the game more than the sum of its parts.

Please be sure to prioritise the things that add to the overall integrity of the game world.

Well written. I agree with most comments, and especially when i try the old iterations of Elite. Alot more "activity". Or a better illusion of it. Background sim and AI. But that doesnt make as much money as bling bling. So im hoping in a year it will be better

 

[Gedemon]

Combat AI is braindead. the combat AI update was the thing I was looking forward to the most , more so than planet landing

For you maybe, not for most pilots.

The biggest difficulty in making a good combat AI is not to make it invincible, they can do it already if they want to, but make it scale realistically from Harmless to Elite so anyone could have fun playing the game.

It would be neither fun or realist to have invincible (except for you and a few other pilot) AI everywhere.

The combat AI is fine already, could be better sure, but if you need a challenge just go in strong signal source alone and take a video please

So if they have moved some programmers from combat AI to BGS, I say it's a good move... A bit late, but welcome.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Fully seconded and well done reasonable post.

 

[MikeSnos]

OP, I agree with every word of your post howver you're making a big assumption that just because Sarah-Jane has been moved off Ai that it has been put on the back burner... This, as far as I'm aware, has not been said anywhere and is just supposition.

Given all the progress Sarah-Jane has made the work is not simply going to be dumped. She's probably been moved to something more crucial for FD (probably the big reveal coming up in a few weeks time) which is a vote for her abilities if that's the case. The AI may not make it into 1.4 but once the big reveal is out in the wild you can probably expect it to appear in the next release once Sarah-Jane (or someone else) has given it a final polish...

Enough of all the doom and gloom... Yes, Sarah-Jane was amazingly responsive but she's now not able to communicate as much because the work she's moved onto clearly is more tied down under NDAs than the AI is (ie it's new and probably very very shiny).

Patience people, patience...

 

[FuzzySpider]

If you want living emergent interaction you could just try clicking on OPEN when you start the game.

There are no PC police patrols, there are no PC military personel, there is instead "CMDR_Crusty_Tomatoes" and "CMDR_teh_wh!zn4t0r!!" running around.

I refer you to my comments on immersion, then explain how immersive the game is when things like this occur.

Spoiler

to OP, I think you're mixing "combat AI" with a lot of things that I would define as parts of the "background sim".

Combat AI is not bad, could be better on 1 vs 1, but it can give a good fight to most humans.

BGS on the other hand need a lot of works, like your example with system security (there are differences in pirates/police ratio there btw, but maybe not visible enough)

The AI factors into this. Even if we're talking purely about combat AI then it still matters. Why aren't security vipers coordinating attacks? Why aren't they travelling in wings, two with lasers that focus on your shields, two with multicannons that move in after your shields are low? Why aren't they moving around and coordinating to attack you from different angles?

And what about NPC pirates? They are all just trying to kill you, why not try to disable your engines and restate their demands? Why not blast your cargo hatch off, use limpets to grab your dropped gear, then jump away?

The general point is the focus of Frontier. The environment of Elite is what desperately needs work right now, not someones beloved magnum opus pet project.

OP, I agree with every word of your post howver you're making a big assumption that just because Sarah-Jane has been moved off Ai that it has been put on the back burner... This, as far as I'm aware, has not been said anywhere and is just supposition.

And as I said, in bold, in the op lets keep away from that.

Even removing events from the past few days entirely it looks like the focus of development has shifted from developing the core game of Elite to developing tacky little add-ons like powerplay.

 

[lysan]

We need the AI upgrade, we need to make the AI harder to beat, we need to be very afraid out there. However we are not, its cosy time with uncle ED at the campfire telling stories of unicorns and rainbows.

 

[lilikin]

The AI the NPCs display is a massive hole in this game currently let me give you some examples of my games.
1) Smuggling,

a) I smuggle with a Clipper but I could do it with a T9 if I wanted I fly a route with about 700k turn around and one jump, how I smuggle? I fly through the station and if someone scans me I fire off Chaff to block their scanners....... imagine if this happened in real life. The annoying thing is the devs know it is something because a lot of the security ships tell me in text that I need to submit to a scan. (just before I chaff them)
b) I approach the station from planet side so I can fly straight in and reduce the chance of being scanned, surely a smuggler wouldn't be so brazen, imagine if there was randomly a capital ship with a routine at the entrance of the station conducting scans. I jump in turn around and jump out thats going to look suspicious, all of a sudden I have vipers on my tail in super cruise trying to scan my cargo (apologising after they interdict me if I am clean of course). How do we avoid them 1) a black market contact we can pay for info that is % accurate depending on proximity to target station to find out if there is a capital ship there OR jump in on the other end of the station and scan for a capital ship before they scan you and jump out if necessary OR hire someone to jump in first and scan out the station ready for your arrival. The capital ship should be there based on the amount of smuggled goods coming into that station, the authorities would know there is smuggling happening and so would send a task force (even to an outpost) The fact I can make a run of 240t imperial slaves every 15 minutes with no increased security is totally silly frankly.

Now if the background sim is working these changes would seriously decrease the amount of smuggling and thus increase the price of the illegal goods making smuggling for example a lot more fun and a lot more profit per successful run making this a win win.

There are so many things like this they could do that doesn't need sexy models/pictures that would make the game amazingly fun

 

[lilikin]

2) Trading, lots of expensive products moving through a system? Surely more criminal gangs of NPCs should be turning up, same as smuggling in a sense. A T9 with millions of CR cargo on board being interdicted by an interceptor of sorts then two or three hitters and a T6 -T7 to pick the cargo up would be genius. NPC on NPC would open up a lot of security jobs for players flying through a system answering calls for help, maybe even a mechanic which will basically offer a pre determined sum of Cr when the help me beacon is answered and you drop out of SC and more when the combat is over. basically offering up to a few million for someone to make in the right circumstances. How to get round being attacked? Smaller better armed ship, Hire someone to protect your shipment, fly something less valuable.....

Again if the background sim is working prices will fluctuate more between areas in the universe and make for more interesting trading, in the end though if the sim is ACTUALLY working then it will sort itself out

 

[hoppingdeth]

This community is so idiot sometimes - I just lose the will...

It wasn't that long ago that after the combat AI update everyone seemed to be praising the improvements it gave to the game. Some were even saying it was tough and maybe too tough on newbie players!

Now one programmer mentions they are moving to programming something else and everyone loses their mind!

I'd like to personally apologise to FD and all who work on this game for such a whinging, whiny bunch of people you've attracted to your product - and I'm amazed you even bother supporting them sometimes.

It's a great game, the combat AI is great as far as flight 'SIMS' go, and thank you.

 

[Rubellen]

For you maybe, not for most pilots.

The biggest difficulty in making a good combat AI is not to make it invincible, they can do it already if they want to, but make it scale realistically from Harmless to Elite so anyone could have fun playing the game.

It would be neither fun or realist to have invincible (except for you and a few other pilot) AI everywhere.

The combat AI is fine already, could be better sure, but if you need a challenge just go in strong signal source alone and take a video please

So if they have moved some programmers from combat AI to BGS, I say it's a good move... A bit late, but welcome.

If you make the zones behave as they are called the player can choose where to operate. Go to high security zones and the police will protect you - fast. Go to high risk pirate zones and better strap a Python or Annie around your waste... Offcourse the bounties and rewards should scale accordingly...

 

[Macgyver]

How to beat elite AI

any small ship,
Engine 2 or more pips
Throttle set to middle of blue
Pull up
when enemy ship flies out of sight, keep pulling up.
rinse repeat until dead.

big ships ( Python, Clipper, Dropship, )

get to to a range of 500
target power core
1 pip engine
1 system
4 weapons
throttle to blue

shoot.
if enemy closes, slow down
if enemy moves away speed up
keep under 500 distance


this is how easy this game is
Vultures offer the only interesting AI due to the big shields and speed but balling up still works 99% of the time.
500 distance is the ultimate because due to the enemies AI crash pathing, most just waddle from side to side or slowly pull up then level off.....

the only difference in enemy ranking is the amount of shields they have, they all fight and die the same.
if you have not worked out how easy this game is to beat, you have now, it's a joke.

 

[lilikin]

3) Bounty hunting

Fly to a station with a black market contact that will give you some info on where to go, go there find some of the person in questions crew, kill them/chase them/disable them (drive down maybe) and then make them talk while spinning in space, search the wreckage (if you killed them), get some more info of where to go next or go straight there with disable giving you more progress down the chase path effectively and the path being longer the more money that is up for grabs and the smaller the ships you have to fighter (so you could effectively have a long mission with several contacts to chase down before you find the target or a big battle with little chasing and so info to tell the player this on the accept bounty screen) Maybe even with you having to scoop the baddies pod after the mission and take it back to the station.
.
Again these missions should be more available in systems with more crime.

And none of this requires the uncompleted but sexy sounding stuff that has been released so far

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This community is so idiot sometimes - I just lose the will...

It wasn't that long ago that after the combat AI update everyone seemed to be praising the improvements it gave to the game. Some were even saying it was tough and maybe too tough on newbie players!

Now one programmer mentions they are moving to programming something else and everyone loses their mind!

I'd like to personally apologise to FD and all who work on this game for such a whinging, whiny bunch of people you've attracted to your product - and I'm amazed you even bother supporting them sometimes.

It's a great game, the combat AI is great as far as flight 'SIMS' go, and thank you.

Please read the entire post before commenting there is a lot more to AI than the combat AI

 

[hoppingdeth]

3)
Please read the entire post before commenting there is a lot more to AI than the combat AI

Rubbish. This thread's existence is a direct result of the news of one of the coders 'moving to something else'. Don't try to pretend it's something that it isn't.

 

[FuzzySpider]

This community is so idiot sometimes - I just lose the will...

I agree entirely. It's kinda like when people don't read Ops before commenting...

It wasn't that long ago that after the combat AI update everyone seemed to be praising the improvements it gave to the game. Some were even saying it was tough and maybe too tough on newbie players!

Now one programmer mentions they are moving to programming something else and everyone loses their mind!

I'd like to personally apologise to FD and all who work on this game for such a whinging, whiny bunch of people you've attracted to your product - and I'm amazed you even bother supporting them sometimes.

It's a great game, the combat AI is great as far as flight 'SIMS' go, and thank you.

As I pointed out it isn't the difficulty of the AI that I am talking about.

As I also pointed out this isn't about the internal staffing structure of Frontier.

This is about:

But you also need emergent dynamic interaction - LIFE! - and that means AI. That is the most pressing need of all for Elite right now.

Not difficulty, dynamic variance.

 

[lilikin]

Rubbish. I like to complain about people complaining without actually reading what has been said, and adding to the conversation.

Says it all really.

 

[Jason S]

Of course FD want better AI.

It will come one day.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I agree with the OP.

If I am interdicted at all in a high security system - which should be very rare - I'd expect a system security response unit consisting of a large combat ship (such as the Anaconda) escorted by three fighters to jump in, mass-lock that assailant and blast it to bits in a matter of minutes.

 

[lilikin]

Of course FD want better AI.

It will come one day.

After all the PC players are playing something else?

 

[hoppingdeth]

Frontier - it has come to my attention that you might have put the development of Elite: Dangerous AI on the back burner. This is a heartfelt attempt by a loyal (but now wavering) fan to convince you to bring it right back up to first priority.

So what are we referring to here? What exact evidence suggests to you that FD 'might have put the development of Elite: Dangerous AI on the back burner'? Other than Sarah leaving combat AI?

 

[lilikin]

I agree with the OP.

If I am interdicted at all in a high security system - which should be very rare - I'd expect a system security response unit consisting of a large combat ship (such as the Anaconda) escorted by three fighters to jump in, mass-lock that assailant and blast it to bits in a matter of minutes.

As long as the background sim insured trading profits were very low in these systems as you have large T9s keeping the prices flat

- - - Updated - - -

So what are we referring to here? What exact evidence suggests to you that FD 'might have put the development of Elite: Dangerous AI on the back burner'? Other than Sarah leaving combat AI?

PP, CQC............