I need help relearning how to fight effectively.

Hello, everyone. So, I recently bought a full CH HOTAS setup (Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals). I got the throttle and joystick first, so I started practicing the combat training missions with them. I was having a very difficult time relearning how to fight that way, until the pedals finally came in. I've definitely improved now that I have the whole setup, but I'm still not as good as I was previously (mouse and keypad). I've been practicing against Crimson Triumph, and I'm managing to kill him, but it takes a very long time to do so each time.

I'm pretty happy with the way I set up my controls now, so I think the issue now is maneuvering properly. I've looked up previous threads talking about Crimson Triumph and have seen the advice to use lateral thrusters to strafe and vertical thrusters to stay on target, but when I try to do that, it just ends up making it more difficult to aim and hit him. My power allocation should be sound (three pips to engines and weapons, and I put a pip on systems for shield recharge if I get hit a few times). I also hear the combat AI has been updated, so maybe that's part of my problem.

So, how can I beat Crimson Triumph more efficiently now? I'd really like to start playing the main game again soon.
 
Thank you for the reply, but I think you're talking about Crimson Triumph in the main game and not in the training mission (if you are, please correct me).

I don't know what Crimson Triumph is, I thought it was a faction or something you were opposing in the main game. I'm a backer and some of the training missions came out months after I started so I never did them.

Sorry to confuse things I was trying to be helpful.

Here's some top tips for the main game :

Join the Mobius group from the menu, it's a dedicated PvE group so you can learn the ropes without PvP (you'll have to wait a couple of days to be accepted).

If your shields fail, run for a high wake jump (to a different system) it takes 15 seconds to charge and is not effected by masslock (big ships slow small ships jumpdrives down).

Gankers (sometimes) hunt noobs in the starter systems, upgrade your drive (when you can) and put 100 ly between the starter system and you.

Bounty hunting is a good way to make cash, but dangerous let NPC police ships soften up your target and steal the kill when it's nearly dead.

If you are fighting a big ship target it's power-plant for a quick kill.

Always fly insured, insurance is your save-game.

Have fun, and don't grind.
 
Having just made Elite combat thru mainly high intensity CZ's, all I can say is that for me speed is the crucial part of dogfighting. Learn to anticipate when your opponent is making a run at you (watch the distance carefully), when he does - throttle back hard keeping him in your sights (flying backwards is fine). Try and keep him at 500m or less, this takes constant tweaks on the throttle. If he does get behind you, get in the blue zone (use vertical thrusters if needed) and get him in your sights as fast as you can. If he runs, boost & chase, if he turns & makes a run at you - see above. All the time pewpewpew. Have his powerplant already targetted for when his shields go down. Manage your pips so you can keep firing (4 in weps is good most of the time). Good luck commander :)
 
Hello, everyone. So, I recently bought a full CH HOTAS setup (Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals). I got the throttle and joystick first, so I started practicing the combat training missions with them. I was having a very difficult time relearning how to fight that way, until the pedals finally came in. I've definitely improved now that I have the whole setup, but I'm still not as good as I was previously (mouse and keypad). I've been practicing against Crimson Triumph, and I'm managing to kill him, but it takes a very long time to do so each time.

I'm pretty happy with the way I set up my controls now, so I think the issue now is maneuvering properly. I've looked up previous threads talking about Crimson Triumph and have seen the advice to use lateral thrusters to strafe and vertical thrusters to stay on target, but when I try to do that, it just ends up making it more difficult to aim and hit him. My power allocation should be sound (three pips to engines and weapons, and I put a pip on systems for shield recharge if I get hit a few times). I also hear the combat AI has been updated, so maybe that's part of my problem.

So, how can I beat Crimson Triumph more efficiently now? I'd really like to start playing the main game again soon.

I've been using CH HOTAS since I bought into premium beta, - where do you have your laterals assigned? I'm assuming the mini-stick but just wanted to be sure, -

Also if you're using pedals to yaw, you might try putting the yaw on the X axis of the stick and using pedals to roll - Though rolling is really important in Elite, Yaw is used for the fine tuning of aim and I find that much more controllable with a stick.

If you could post a video so we could see exactly what you're doing that would be helpful too.
 
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I've been using CH HOTAS since I bought into premium beta, - where do you have your laterals assigned? I'm assuming the mini-stick but just wanted to be sure, -

Also if you're using pedals to yaw, you might try putting the yaw on the X axis of the stick and using pedals to roll - Though rolling is really important in Elite, Yaw is used for the fine tuning of aim and I find that much more controllable with a stick.

If you could post a video so we could see exactly what you're doing that would be helpful too.

To answer your question; yes, I'm using the mini-stick for lateral and forwards/backwards thrust. (Vertical thrust is assigned to the toe brakes on the pedals - I followed this guide to combine each axis on the brakes into one Y axis: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-34256-p-2.html)

And yes, I already set the rudder axis on the pedals to roll - I also found it better for me to have yaw on the joystick.

I've never made or posted any sort of video to the internet, but I can try to do it.
 
To answer your question; yes, I'm using the mini-stick for lateral and forwards/backwards thrust. (Vertical thrust is assigned to the toe brakes on the pedals - I followed this guide to combine each axis on the brakes into one Y axis: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-34256-p-2.html)

And yes, I already set the rudder axis on the pedals to roll - I also found it better for me to have yaw on the joystick.

I've never made or posted any sort of video to the internet, but I can try to do it.

You might consider putting vertical lateral on the mini stick too, as long as you're using the throttle axis for both forward and reverse engines there's almost no utility for analogue front back strafe, and that could be on the toebrakes.

I don't know about you but I find the toebrakes a bit awkward to use, though I do have throttle commands on them anyway in Star Citizen and Rogue System, its avoidable in Elite if you're using a centered throttle.
 
You might consider putting vertical lateral on the mini stick too, as long as you're using the throttle axis for both forward and reverse engines there's almost no utility for analogue front back strafe, and that could be on the toebrakes.

I don't know about you but I find the toebrakes a bit awkward to use, though I do have throttle commands on them anyway in Star Citizen and Rogue System, its avoidable in Elite if you're using a centered throttle.

I decided to take your advice and put vertical thrust on the mini-stick with forward/backward thrust on the toebrakes. It probably does work slightly better for me that way, so thank you.

I made a video and am uploading it to Youtube currently. I'll link it in this thread when it's ready.
 
Okay, here it is. As a fair warning, it's almost 20 minutes long:
[video=youtube;6qjWv80ivA8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qjWv80ivA8[/video]
 
It take many hours to relearn muscle memory, spend a few more hours in the training and youll be better than you were with mouse and keyboard.

I had the same trouble switching to HOTAS, took me about 3 hours to get up to scratch and about another 3 to do the same thing FA off.

Perservere, its totally worth it!
 
It take many hours to relearn muscle memory, spend a few more hours in the training and youll be better than you were with mouse and keyboard.

I had the same trouble switching to HOTAS, took me about 3 hours to get up to scratch and about another 3 to do the same thing FA off.

Perservere, its totally worth it!

Thank you for the encouragement, but I don't think this is just about muscle memory. I've already practiced for a while now, and I feel that something else is missing that's keeping me from being competent again.

As I've said before, I've heard the combat AI recently got updated to be more challenging, and if that's the case then I feel part of the problem is that the practices I acquired using mouse and keypad don't work as well anymore (I took a break from this game for a while and am trying to come back into it). If that's what's happening to me, I think I may just have to relearn how to fight enemies in general, and not just translate my previous skill with mouse and keypad to the HOTAS. If you're able to sit through the video, maybe you can figure out what it is I need to do or do better to beat the training mission more quickly.
 
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Thank you for the encouragement, but I don't think this is just about muscle memory. I've already practiced for a while now, and I feel that something else is missing that's keeping me from being competent again.

As I've said before, I've heard the combat AI recently got updated to be more challenging, and if that's the case then I feel part of the problem is that the practices I acquired using mouse and keypad don't work as well anymore (I took a break from this game for a while and am trying to come back into it). If that's what's happening to me, I think I may just have to relearn how to fight enemies in general, and not just translate my previous skill with mouse and keypad to the HOTAS. If you're able to sit through the video, maybe you can figure out what it is I need to do or do better to beat the training mission more quickly.

Wow viper you weren't kidding about the scenario taking a long time, - OK I played the whole thing, (had my eyes off it now and then and no sound, so I hope i didn't miss anything) and I second yomamas assertion about muscle memory, - a lot of what I see in that video is simply that you have an unfamiliar device in both of your hands and are now asking your feet to work in tandem with them and its simply taking a bit too much thought at this point.

I think in the end you're going to have to stop trying to nail the training scenario and get out there in a variety of settings in the full game from docking to scooping and just learn on the job. Now there are some specifics I noticed that I can mention that may help in the triumph dogfight, and hopefully in others.

First off your throttle management is completely static, which makes me wonder what you're doing with the throttle axis? I've never played mouse and keyboard, but I assume you're used to keeping throttle in the blue and using keyboard keys to either strafe forward or back depending on whether or not the situation demands acceleration or deceleration. I saw you blip the throttle up at some points which I guess you were doing with the reassigned toe brakes. But you have a full analog throttle now, and can freely move from the blue zone for turns, to full throttle when distance opens up to reverse if it looks like you can avoid an overshoot - so I'd advise moving the throttle around a lot more in response to what your opponent is doing.

Also your rolls are very delayed and that's understandable given the unfamiliarity of the pedals. Now you can't keep up with every rotation of an evading opponent, but when it looks like a turn is incoming due to a fly by you need to preemptively roll before your target leaves line of sight so you can immediately start to pitch in pursuit. Now I bet you were doing that more fluidly with the keyboard and mouse, so that's may just be a question of getting used to your new peripherals.

Your full analog set up will also make Flight Assist Off more manageable than it may have been on mouse and keyboard. I noticed you never flipped it off in this fight, and while it won't magically make your maneuvering thrusters work better, it will let you slide your ship's rear around the outside of a turn, functionally helping you keep you nose on target in a tight turning battle. There were many points where Crimson Triumph zoomed out of your sight and even in the blue zone it took you ages to reacquire. A flight assist off turn with the addition of boost can really get him back in your sight fast, as well as opening some distance where you can better asses his trajectory and settle into a nice smooth firing solution.

Lastly its clear you're having trouble aiming with the stick that's something you just have to get used to, but you are both over correcting and lagging behind the Triumph's movements. You may benefit from flattening the curve of the X and Y axes of your stick a bit in CH Control Manager, this will make the little correcting movements slightly subtler and less responsive than the wider throws you'll use when turning. You may like the way it feels, if not, you can always put the curve back to default. Remember to re-download the profile after changing the curve.

As for keeping up, that's something I'm sure you could do with the mouse so that should translate to the stick pretty soon.

Its a bit hard to judge your use of laterals, but I recommended you put the verts on the ministick for ease of access because vertical thrusting is a great assist in keeping a foe in sight or breaking a turning fight. Assuming the opponent is moving 'up' relative to the top of your 'pit strong ventral thrust can help keep him from leaving your sights. And when you're turning to reacquire some dorsal thrust can help push you down into a more oblong turn thus breaking the endless loop of two evenly matched ships trying to turn into each other and getting him back in your sights faster. You probably have your own opinions and usage for laterals from the mouse and keyboard days, but your new kit gives you full analog control over those babies, which means you can really tailor the power to the amount of relative movement between you in your target, which is awesome.

Anyway I made a vid of my own vs Crimson, notice the preemptive rolling when I think he's going to pass, the use of FA Off and boost, and reverse to keep him in my sights. I wouldn't consider this a quick kill btw but I'm a bit rusty myself as I haven't seen another ship since February as I've been on a slow exploration cruise!

[video=youtube_share;5NbJilbhoKM]https://youtu.be/5NbJilbhoKM[/video]


As for the modified AI, - booting up this training scenario didn't seem much different from my last combat encounters, have you tried playing the mission with mouse and keyboard and seeing if the evasive patterns seem substantially different from what you remember?
 
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i just did the crimson triumph training mission, sorry no video. I have done a crude drawing though. Use the rudder to rotate your ship and keep your target on your vertical line. Put three pips to weps 1.5 to sys and eng (if he starts hitting you 4 to sys to maximise shields).

Pull up towards the target, use rudder so you always pull up towards your target.

If he's beating you on the turn thrust up (maneuvering thrusters) whilst pulling up this will tighten your turn, but close the gap (yellow line)

Standard turn without thrust (red line), he will beat you if you stick to this.

If you want to open the gap between the ships thrust down whilst pulling up (pink line).

If you lose sight of him, reverse thrust till he's back in front. If he's behind you activate FA off do a 180 and deactivate FA off.

Dodge incoming fire with up and down thrust, side thrust is not as effective for this because of the shape of a sidey.

New Bitmap Image.jpg

Hope that helps.
 
I've been through about 3 different controller setup - gamepad, joystick/keyboard, joystick CH throttle.

It just takes time to get used to it.

The transition between gamepad and joystick was very difficult. I was like a drunk flying that ship.
 
First of all, thank you to everyone for your replies. Especially Thomas with your video, Stig with your diagram, and advice from both of you. I'll be looking over your posts and media repeatedly for reference on how to improve.

I actually tried the training scenario with a mouse and keypad just now for the sake of comparison, and while things went much smoother than with the HOTAS, I still had a bit of difficulty keeping on target. I don't know whether this is because of a difference in combat AI, or simply because I'm at that awkward stage in the transition period between the two input methods where I don't have strong muscle memory for either (maybe both). I think ultimately, even when I used mouse and keypad I simply wasn't using best practices when dogfighting and now I need to retrain myself combat in general.

Now let me respond to some quotes:

I think in the end you're going to have to stop trying to nail the training scenario and get out there in a variety of settings in the full game from docking to scooping and just learn on the job.

Maybe you're right. I certainly would like to return to the main game again. However, the reason I want to master the training scenario is because bounty hunting is my primary source of income in this game, and I want to make sure I can still do that much effectively.

First off your throttle management is completely static, which makes me wonder what you're doing with the throttle axis? I've never played mouse and keyboard, but I assume you're used to keeping throttle in the blue and using keyboard keys to either strafe forward or back depending on whether or not the situation demands acceleration or deceleration. I saw you blip the throttle up at some points which I guess you were doing with the reassigned toe brakes. But you have a full analog throttle now, and can freely move from the blue zone for turns, to full throttle when distance opens up to reverse if it looks like you can avoid an overshoot - so I'd advise moving the throttle around a lot more in response to what your opponent is doing.

Your first assertion is correct, I'm used to keeping the throttle on blue while using forward and backwards thrust to strafe. The few times my throttle went up during the video was actually because my hand isn't entirely steady with the throttle axis yet, so sometimes I accidentally slide it forward or backward a little.

Your full analog set up will also make Flight Assist Off more manageable than it may have been on mouse and keyboard. I noticed you never flipped it off in this fight, and while it won't magically make your maneuvering thrusters work better, it will let you slide your ship's rear around the outside of a turn, functionally helping you keep you nose on target in a tight turning battle. There were many points where Crimson Triumph zoomed out of your sight and even in the blue zone it took you ages to reacquire. A flight assist off turn with the addition of boost can really get him back in your sight fast, as well as opening some distance where you can better asses his trajectory and settle into a nice smooth firing solution.

This is something I'll have to try. There was a period of time in the past when I tried to teach myself to fly with the assist off, but I couldn't figure it out and gave up in frustration.

Lastly its clear you're having trouble aiming with the stick that's something you just have to get used to, but you are both over correcting and lagging behind the Triumph's movements. You may benefit from flattening the curve of the X and Y axes of your stick a bit in CH Control Manager, this will make the little correcting movements slightly subtler and less responsive than the wider throws you'll use when turning. You may like the way it feels, if not, you can always put the curve back to default. Remember to re-download the profile after changing the curve.

I've already been assigning sensitivity curves to the joystick, as well as the throttle mini-stick and the pedals' rudder axis. I've tried different curves for the joystick, but I can't seem to find one that really works out for me.

By the way, is there a way for me to personally save this thread? I'd like to always be able to read through it for reference.
 
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my suggestion?....roll axis on stick, with pitch as in the normal planes (stick forward,fly down, stick back, fly up)
Throttle as a throttle...and pedals with yaw axis...and with a ministick on your throttle for lateral vertical thrusters.

Learn to fly in this way and stop try to use different setups...it needs time and practice.
 
My power allocation should be sound (three pips to engines and weapons, and I put a pip on systems for shield recharge if I get hit a few times).

Trying to have a single, near-universal "power allocation" hurts you IMO. Pips in a subsystem that's not being stressed at that moment, are pips that could usually be allocated elsewhere.

In combat I go with four engine pips (and boost as necessary) when maneuvering or in a hurry to create/close distance, otherwise four weapons pips and with the two "spare" pips to shields unless I'm taking heavy fire or about to ram/be rammed, in which case four pips to shields and two to engines/weapons depending on the situation.

It really helps if you can use some kind of automation (many Commanders use Voice Attack; I use GlovePIE) to have your favourite pips pre-sets at a spoken command or a button press.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, is there a way for me to personally save this thread? I'd like to always be able to read through it for reference.

Subscribe under "Thread Tools" near the top of the page.
 
my suggestion?....roll axis on stick

I've already tried it this way. I found that I personally do better with yaw on the stick and rolling on the pedals. I already have all the other axes set up as you suggested.

In combat I go with four engine pips (and boost as necessary) when maneuvering or in a hurry to create/close distance, otherwise four weapons pips and with the two "spare" pips to shields unless I'm taking heavy fire or about to ram/be rammed, in which case four pips to shields and two to engines/weapons depending on the situation.

It really helps if you can use some kind of automation (many Commanders use Voice Attack; I use GlovePIE) to have your favourite pips pre-sets at a spoken command or a button press.

Thank you for the tips on power management. I actually do use Voice Attack, I just haven't tried using pip presets with it before. I'll try to do that from now on.
 
Oh and one last thing Viper if you feel yourself getting really tense in the bicep of your stick arm try and relax, its one of those things where if you get too locked up you start working against yourself.
 
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