The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Windscreen Smudge]

Sorry, can you extropolate?

So you're not suggesting any possible benefits (eg: financial) from being in a guild and running a station?

We have NPC oriented community goals right now. This is just a stand-in for what a lot of player groups do. They'll create their own community goals such as "Saturday night we're going to hold a mass expedition to the Coalsack Nebula and explore every celestial body within it. BYOS (Bring your own scanner) and meet in front of the Lave station at 6 P.M. Central." Then suddenly you have 75 commanders heading out en force to scan and explore a deep region of space collectively, organizing their movements so that they get every last object out there. They could choose to focus their efforts in bringing a minor faction into power in a certain system simply to get better prices on their trade goods, they could organize to push conflict zones and pop capital ships, etc....

That's what people do. Community goals, Powerplay, and Galnet News are just a sad mockery of what player social groups typically provide in any MMO.

Is ED not enough of an example? It does not matter how many Games do this and that, all ED needs is ED to work. If its the only Game that works without that, or one of 2 or one of 100 - it does not matter.

You assume that it's working. I point out that it's not. Sales are continuing to grow, but the population is gradually declining because players do not have anything invested in the game to keep them playing. One of the primary aspects that they can invest in a game is social interaction. The community will keep them coming back and playing, and it will keep them enjoying the game.

http://steamspy.com/app/359320

And what's to stop other people docking at your station in Solo, logging into Open, and lulzramming all the snug and happy guildies thinking they are all safe?

Oh, what's this, you mean it only takes ONE PLAYER to cause problems?

Gee, imagine that.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Is ED not enough of an example? It does not matter how many Games do this and that, all ED needs is ED to work. If its the only Game that works without that, or one of 2 or one of 100 - it does not matter.

I don't consider ED a shining example. It's new and unproven. And then there's this thread. A few threads over are people griping that they can't find motivation to play anymore.

time will tell
(or maybe it won't... As there are rumours of guilds coming soon (tm) )

 

[Evil]

Sorry, can you extropolate?

So you're not suggesting any possible benefits (eg: financial) from being in a guild and running a station?

Well that really depends on the mechanics in place, there could be beneficial and negative aspects, as there generally is with everything that is well balanced.

Small server match based games don't have hardly any clan support, that's almost always provided by the players. You could even say that's one of the defining reasons they don't fall under the MMO category.

"don't have hardly any clan support", so they do have some, and thats the basis, even a clan TAG in ED would be better than nothing.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Personally I would like the ability to talk to all my friends at once.

I can do this around a station to random people so the technology is there in ED; I can PM people 1 by 1 which is awkward for organizing things and/or being sociable with a large group (unless we're all in the same system); however I can't en masse send a message to everyone I know on my friends list.

That I believe is what is missing : A guild / clan then would become a collection of friends.


P.s: The chat system needs an overhaul anyway as it's quite annoying to hear a "ping" from someone when you're docked in a menu and have to come out to read it.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I don't consider ED a shining example. It's new and unproven. And then there's this thread. A few threads over are people griping that they can't find motivation to play anymore.

time will tell
(or maybe it won't... As there are rumours of guilds coming soon (tm) )

Its doing quite good so far, but of course a game that is only out for year can't proof how its doing in the long run, rules of times don't allow that yet.

There are Threads of People saying how much they enjoy this Game. What now? Did the Internet create a paradox that will destroy the Universe?

 

[SiriusSeven]

And totally jarring to what Elite is: one man and his ship.

That makes me sad then. Multiplayer is what eD has going for it. If all I wanted was one man and his ship, I should have stuck with X3. It does a much better job at it.

 

[NeilF]

a place to call your home
a place you feel safe
profit sharing
a point of pride
a tangible *thing* to care about, develop and defend
a source of meaningful community (ie. Guild) goals
etc

I'd imagine one problem would be simply maintaining the members...

Who is in charge of membership? Who decides if Johnny - who hasn't logged on for two months - should get kicked from the group?

Who's going to decide Bob is being counter productive by purposefully undermining the groups achievements?





I've wondered about these issues myself. In my head I like the idea of groups working akin to a local faction in a station. Anything they do at that station benefits their position at that station (eg: trading or cashign in bounties). As their position improved they could dominate the local system and actualy take ownership of the local station(s). At that point their group/faction could then become a viable group/faction at neighbouring stations where the same process would begin there. So in effect they have a bubble of ownership/effect.

What I could never rationalise in my head is... why? There would need to be some sort of reward ultmately. eg: For any station they own, any visiting CMDR (& pretent virtual NPC calculated on station business) pay small docking fee (eg: 500CR), and that is then spread across all members etc... So if a group take over a busy station they could bey getting a nice regular income. But other groups could then take an interesting in taking the station over etc...

But I always saw too many issues/problems with any mechanics I could come up with


I always liked the idea of my group of friends trying to become a viable faction/group in a little station and getting a nice little financial reward from our efforts as other CMDRs passed through/used it.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Misread - never mind

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

And totally jarring to what Elite is: one man and his ship.

I think you better take a look around the cockpit next time you're in the game and count the number of seats in your Python, Cobra, Asp, etc...

Seems ED is fundamentally NOT about one man.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Misread - never mind

Nothing to see here....

 

[Asp Explorer]

Misread - never mind

Oops! Oh well, free bacon and beer for everybody

 

[Earthshine]

Personally I would like the ability to talk to all my friends at once.

I can do this around a station to random people so the technology is there in ED; I can PM people 1 by 1 which is awkward for organizing things and/or being sociable with a large group (unless we're all in the same system); however I can't en masse send a message to everyone I know on my friends list.

That I believe is what is missing : A guild / clan then would become a collection of friends.


P.s: The chat system needs an overhaul anyway as it's quite annoying to hear a "ping" from someone when you're docked in a menu and have to come out to read it.

Have to agree.

What I was imagining was an extension to the chat/friends system. Perhaps something like being able to create "channels" that you could name and include certain friends. Might be good just to organise friends lists too since I'm sure many of you have alot and get confused from time to time

You could perhaps then transmit your "channel" to a targeted commander which would automatically add him as a friend on acceptance and allow him to see all the friends you had included in that channel.

Not sure about how you'd control the numbers though. 1000 friends in a single channel and 200 of them online could be tricky perhaps for the p2p infrastructure?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I don't see the point in those either

Indeed

And Rob needs to edit his post too as I misread the objection. Thought the argument was against it being MP, not station owning

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think you better take a look around the cockpit next time you're in the game and count the number of seats in your Python, Cobra, Asp, etc...

Seems ED is fundamentally NOT about one man.

We're waiting for ship's crew to be implemented: DDA thread.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Its doing quite good so far, but of course a game that is only out for year can't proof how its doing in the long run, rules of times don't allow that yet.

There are Threads of People saying how much they enjoy this Game. What now? Did the Internet create a paradox that will destroy the Universe?

No paradox. It wasn't a figure of speech. I honestly mean that time will tell if this turns out to be a good lasting design. The other games with guilds, already mentioned, have the advantage of time. We already know, after years or decades, that they are/were successful. It is truly too early to tell.

And no, I am not proclaiming that ED will die unless.... I'm not ready to make that call.

 

[Herik]

Windscreen Smudge, I know what I said; but you are right there are (other) uses for guilds, and they are good. Of course those uses are not the ones the player base and I dislike...

I cant see any implementation of Guilds without most of them game restricting players, and thus my statement.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I think you better take a look around the cockpit next time you're in the game and count the number of seats in your Python, Cobra, Asp, etc...

Seems ED is fundamentally NOT about one man.

We're waiting for ship's crew to be implemented: DDA thread.

Indeed we are - and you can bet it still won't take >1 player to fly an Anaconda when multi-crew is implemented. It'll be optional

 

[Malpherian]

Care to share links to the peer reviewed, uncontested, studies that you are referring to?

I actually agree with you when you say that Guilds are not the problem but people are. As the behaviour of people, if Guilds were to be introduced, within those Guilds and the effects that their behaviour may have on the community at large cannot be proven (until after the fact) but only be guessed at, saying that there would be no problems if Guilds were to be introduced would be ludicrous by your reasoning.

Again, links to facts and evidence would be appreciated - I'll exercise my prerogative to stick by my opinion at this time.

1. Demystifying guilds: MMORPG-playing and norms

http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uploads/digital-library/09291.50401.pdf


2. What Makes an MMORPG Leader? A Social Cognitive Theory-Based Approach to Understanding the Formation of Leadership Capabilities in Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games


http://www.eludamos.org/index.php/eludamos/article/viewArticle/vol6no1-4/6-1-4-html


3. MMORPG Guilds as online communities.Power, Space and Time: from fun toengagement in virtual worlds.

http://larica.uniurb.it/wp-content/pictures/download/rossiIR90.pdf


4. Object of Study, MMO Guilds as Networks

https://dawnofthecyborg.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/object-of-study-mmo-guilds-as-networks


5. Even FORBES has something to say on the matter: Studying Player Commitment To MMORPGs

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2012/11/30/studying-player-commitment-to-mmorpgs/


Nuff said.

But I'll save you the reading. They all contend that MMO's which have guilds are far more successful, and their players are much happier then MMO's without them, they also attribute higher profits, as well as longevity of a game based on it's social ability for players to interact. Games which encourage and support such, generally last years if not decades, games which do not, well... do not.

The positive effects of guilds in MMo's is clearly seen, all tests which were done in non guild MMO's were found to be exceedingly negative with the game not being very popular, and sales being only about a quarter (average) of their potential compared to MMO's with guilds. The effect of guilds on the community in which they reside was found to be overwhelmingly positive in almost all cases.

There were a few in the studies which show that games enheritly designed as single player games converted into an MMO such as "Skyrim" and "Fallout", lacked the structure to support large groups of people in their virtual environments. (But again that's not really a anything concerning actual guilds anyway. ED has more then enough structure and potential to house and sustain an almost unlimited number of guilds. so that would not be an issue here.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

No paradox. It wasn't a figure of speech. I honestly mean that time will tell if this turns out to be a good lasting design. The other games with guilds, already mentioned, have the advantage of time. We already know, after years or decades, that they are/were successful. It is truly too early to tell.

And no, I am not proclaiming that ED will die unless.... I'm not ready to make that call.

Not all Games with Guilds have been successfull. All sorts of diffrent games can be successful and no design will ever make every game that uses it successful. I just don't think "but others doing it!" is a good argument for anything, and if there already that many Games with Guild/Clan features then there are plenty of games where you can get what you what. Can't hurt to have one Game that offers something diffrent that people like me want, don't you think? Diversity in the Games market is a good thing.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

We're waiting for ship's crew to be implemented: DDA thread.

Which doesn't detract from my statement at all. ED is not about the individual. Open play and private groups have been the focus of FD's attention from the beginning and the amount of player cooperation is set to expand exponentially as time goes on. Guilds can only complement and encourage the use of all of these upcoming features that people are eagerly anticipating.

If you want to fill your Anaconda with players to head out to a conflict zone, is it going to be easier to find pilots for every seat with or without guilds? Are you going to find more people you can reliably depend on with or without a tight social network of people you have gotten to know?