The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[rootsrat]

$1 million was spent to get a certain level of quality (..) highly detailed (...) animations (..) All of that in incredibly high fidelity.

Just for the sake of clarity: Star Citizen character animation is anything but highly detailed or high fidelity, it's the most clumsy animations I've seen in a computer game in many years.

As for the product itself - you can't call an early alpha demo a game really. Imagine if someone gave you a wheel, an exhaust and a gear shift lever and said "This is a car".

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to SC, but be realistic.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Chris Roberts interview from October 2012:

"You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?"

"Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale."

 

[fourty6to3]

People that think Star Citizen is taking a long time don't really know what developing groundbreaking games is all about:

https://i.imgur.com/flrVzR9.png

And this picture it's very adequate because we could say that Star Citizen is bringing more details and mechanics to the game scope than all those les together!

I think that chart needs to be put into it's proper context. Those dates given are the development times for the FULL release of those games, including beta periods. It's been "2y 7mo" for Star Citizen, or about half way through compared to the rest, and we're still on the AC module. So the pace of things might put it at 2017 for something meaningful to play. And speaking of "meaningful", yes, at least we have Elite - which should put me to sleep until then.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yes Star Citizen is delayed but I am not sure you can read to much into that. Games are often delayed, and that is with a known budget. I do not think anyone expected SC to explode like it did, and with that the scope of the game increased, which in turn increased dev time.

I am no SC fanboy and indeed what we have now worries me in terms of the flight model (personal subjective opinion).... however you cant imo read anything into the delay.

dont forget ED launch date was March 2014... and whilst it was "only" 9 months late, truth be told, it should really not have come out of gamma till after wings were working properly imo, which would have took it to 12 months late.

couple that with the fact that where as ED is going on a modular approach, SC is for the most part looking to drop all its content in 1 go.

 

[1500]

Wait, what ? That is bizarre xD

Come on now. How can you add in 1 year spent on a tiny proof of concept ? That's ridiculous. A handful of people making proof of concept that is minute fraction of the scope of the actual game, with the sole purpose of pitching that to Kickstarter. Adding on 1 year from that and saying "It took 3.7 years" ? Whether he spend $1 million or not, common sense should tell you that saying "3.7 years" is simply an inaccurate statement, and it's just unfair to say that.
"Yes I count that as development, most people would"
No, most people don't. I've seen a lot of people who expect a game of this size to be done in 2.5 years, but this one is a first. I've never seen this before in any SC argument.
Maybe if the game was still at $7 million in funding, and set to release 2014, then maybe what you're saying would be a little more reasonable, but to count that initial proof of concept as 1 year of development for SC as it is now... doesn't work.

In response to your second paragraph - It doesn't matter how much any other games asked for. Are any of them close to the scale and the quality of Star Citizen to begin with ? No, not at all. $1 million was spent to get a certain level of quality - with a massive Bengal carrier, some of the interior. Hornets with animations, Vanduul ships, highly detailed characters with animations - something which the games you mentioned don't even have. All of that in incredibly high fidelity. The comparison you're making simply doesn't work.
Star Citizen has AAA quality First Person level detail, with very highly detailed characters and animations and everything. The proof of concept had this as well. That's on a completely different level to any of the other games you're talking about. This, by itself, renders all those comparisons useless. Some things simply cost a lot of money. Getting that insane quality, getting some mocap even ? Ofcourse it could cost $1 million. There is no comparison, it's all just very different - they're on different levels altogether.

Full scale AAA game development costs are really really high. Star Citizen is one of the few, along with Kingdom Come Deliverance, to attempt this through crowdfunding. As far as space games go, SC is the only one.

- - - Updated - - -

PS - Don't mean to offend you or be condescending btw. It might come off that way because of the beginning of the comment,but I'm just arguing that's all.

I didn't add the year, CR stated that when he started work on it. Since its what CR said he started development on SC, I will use that as the start of development. Many projects start with very few people. Just because the assets ended up not being used does not mean the work didn't happen. Every project has work that ends up not being in the final game, should we not count that either? So perhaps we should not count the start time for ED as being at the kickstarter, after all those assets ended up not being used. We are not talking about just putting up a few drawing, we are talking about full blown models and a Demo of the game (well the flying part anyway). They had the Bangel and Hornet along with other ships fully modeled, a lot of work went into SC in order to create game assets and a working demo, that is development. Just because the development changed does not mean you get to ignore all work that went before it.

Even you said that if the funding had stopped at 7million it would be a different thing, well what does that matter? Clearly you thought it was real work, and real development. You just want to ignore it because CIG started over, that is just not how it works. Many companies start over, and have to throw out past work, it does not change the companies start date though.

It does not matter what level of quality a game is going for, that does not magically change the start date of the project. And your second part you admit that a lot of development was put into SC before the kickstarter. Oh and as others pointed out, the animations up to this point have been horrible. But they still required work to be put in.

 

[Monk]

I think SC is coming along...I always figured it would run way over budget and over time with a comically silly scale for size and distance because, Chris Roberts. Even knowing that, I've had fun with his games in the past and $30 plus more (i think $10 for each iteration) when things start coming out seemed reasonable to me.

I did find one thing rather disappointing about the multi-crew demo....I thought getting a ship back on line would be more than just "push to start" type gaming mechanic. I thought I remember hearing that getting a ship on line would require some skill based activities. Pressing "F" might be a skill for some, but I was hoping for more. I'm going to assume, for the moment, that it was a shortcut for the sake of demoing the concept of a multi-crew.

EDIT: Let's not get all high and mighty though...Braben started teasing Elite IV in 1997 (granted publisher issues, funding, technology yadda yadda)

Mentioned at the end of this article...couldn't find a better one, the old internet is so cute
http://www.sslmit.unibo.it/zat/files/front3/e_braben.html

 

[Troels]

I think that chart needs to be put into it's proper context. Those dates given are the development times for the FULL release of those games, including beta periods. It's been "2y 7mo" for Star Citizen, or about half way through compared to the rest, and we're still on the AC module. So the pace of things might put it at 2017 for something meaningful to play. And speaking of "meaningful", yes, at least we have Elite - which should put me to sleep until then.

Well I believe CR has said they are planning to release the game in Q4 2016, so if we accommodate for the usual delays, a release somewhere in the middle of 2017 does indeed seem realistic.

 

[Jenner]

Yes Star Citizen is delayed but I am not sure you can read to much into that. Games are often delayed, and that is with a known budget. I do not think anyone expected SC to explode like it did, and with that the scope of the game increased, which in turn increased dev time.

I am no SC fanboy and indeed what we have now worries me in terms of the flight model (personal subjective opinion).... however you cant imo read anything into the delay.

dont forget ED launch date was March 2014... and whilst it was "only" 9 months late, truth be told, it should really not have come out of gamma till after wings were working properly imo, which would have took it to 12 months late.

couple that with the fact that where as ED is going on a modular approach, SC is for the most part looking to drop all its content in 1 go.

Well said. It's good to keep things in perspective.

 

[1500]

Yes Star Citizen is delayed but I am not sure you can read to much into that. Games are often delayed, and that is with a known budget. I do not think anyone expected SC to explode like it did, and with that the scope of the game increased, which in turn increased dev time.

I am no SC fanboy and indeed what we have now worries me in terms of the flight model (personal subjective opinion).... however you cant imo read anything into the delay.

dont forget ED launch date was March 2014... and whilst it was "only" 9 months late, truth be told, it should really not have come out of gamma till after wings were working properly imo, which would have took it to 12 months late.

couple that with the fact that where as ED is going on a modular approach, SC is for the most part looking to drop all its content in 1 go.

Like I said, that has to deal with the quality of the work produced after said dealy, more than the delay its self. Yes ED was delayed but FD delivered very high quality work throughout its development, something CIG has not been able to do.

 

[Troels]

I think SC is coming along...I always figured it would run way over budget and over time with a comically silly scale for size and distance because, Chris Roberts. Even knowing that, I've had fun with his games in the past and $30 plus more (i think $10 for each iteration) when things start coming out seemed reasonable to me.

I did find one thing rather disappointing about the multi-crew demo....I thought getting a ship back on line would be more than just "push to start" type gaming mechanic. I thought I remember hearing that getting a ship on line would require some skill based activities. Pressing "F" might be a skill for some, but I was hoping for more. I'm going to assume, for the moment, that it was a shortcut for the sake of demoing the concept of a multi-crew.

I believe the repair mechanics are largely unimplemented currently, which is why they went with a much simpler mechanic for the demo, since they needed a placeholder. If you watch the live demo, I believe CR actually mentions the repair mechanic being unimplemented, since they accidently end up damaging the Retaliators quantum drive, leaving them stranded (once repair is implemented, you would be able to fix this).

 

[1500]

Someone else said it better than me so.

Star Citizen began as a concept by Chris Roberts in 2011. He funded the development of assets, including modifications to CryEngine. Besides anyone who thinks it was just a video isn't paying attention. Has Chris ever been satisfied with a video? The initial development was for a full blown demonstration that was playable.

The game is running again. This time, giant motors crank back the hangar doors and the fighter zips into a massive asteroid field. Articulated thrusters and turrets react to every control, missiles detach from their pylons and fire up. The pilot hits the correct buttons on his joystick for each action. I ask if the asteroids have physics, if they're destructible. They do, they are. Fidelity is the game.

I ask Roberts if he can land on top of the carrier and get out. He can, and does. He floats about awkwardly (zero-G movement isn't animated yet), then returns to the cockpit and does a fly-by of the carrier's flight deck. Ideally, he tells me, a friend standing inside the carrier will wave to you as you fly by.

Star Citizen was under development long before Chris asked anyone to fund it. But hey, if Wikipedia (the same source used for all the other games) isn't good enough then just go with Chris himself:

“This is my vision,” he says after the demonstration. “I've spent the past year [putting this together] with my money and a few others', but we can't take it all the way. It's too expensive and I'm not doing the traditional EA publisher deal. I don't want to make a console game. This is what I want to do.”

Assets, engine modifications, character animations, a playable level. Clearly not development.

And anyone else remember CIG stating that they had to turn off half the Bangels weapons in order to let the Sythe come even close to shooting it.

 

[Toumal]

whilst he does have a penchant for over promising (but to be fair most do! I adore Elite D but the jury is still out as to whether they will get all the content DB has chatted about over the last few years imo.... We will know more in a few years time!), i think this criticism against CR is a little harsh. I have loved every one of his games personally........

Hmmmm... *takes off his rose-tinted nostalgia glasses*

Don't know if I agree. I vividly remember all the hype about Strike Commander for example. It promised a lot of things, like a living breathing world with a completely dynamic storyline, and that no playthrough would be the same. There were even lofty claims about the dogfighting AI. In the end, Strike Commander did deliver on one thing, and one thing only: Graphics. It was undoubtedly an amazing looking game at a time when my own computer could only comfortably run games like F15 Strike Eagle II and F117A Stealth Fighter. The fun of Strike Commander was extremely short lived - it turned out to be a very linear, limited affair. It was really just Wing Commander with airplanes. His games were the kinds I only played through once, and then never touched again. The only possible exception was Wing Commander Armada because it had IPX and dialup multiplayer, a novelty at that time, and it featured a tactical "metagame". It was also one of the first Wing Commander games with ships made of 3D polygons.

I think it's way, way too harsh to claim that CR has never delivered. However, he always delivered late and with considerable trouble, Freelancer being one of the more well-remembered examples, though I think it's one of his best games overall. Whether or not that's due to, or despite of the influence of the publisher finally yanking control from him, I don't know.

At this point, who cares what anyone thinks constitutes "development" and whether they believe ED was in development for "years prior" or not. You can talk until you're blue in the mouth and cite facts, people will still not believe, or will believe what they want to.
No. Let's focus on the game, on the results. If SC ends up delivering a fun experience (note I'm not saying "realistic" or anything like that), then that's awesome. There's always someone who'll complain no matter what, but let's not worry about that.

If they release something as glitchy as we've seen at GC then there's gonna be a major fallout. As someone once said, you can be late, but you can't release crap. Is SC late? Oh yes it is, and anyone who claims otherwise is just talking to make himself feel better. It's just a fact that they're super late. But you know what? That's not the issue here.

Let them be late. Just don't let them release crap.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Yes Star Citizen is delayed but I am not sure you can read to much into that. Games are often delayed, and that is with a known budget. I do not think anyone expected SC to explode like it did, and with that the scope of the game increased, which in turn increased dev time.

I am no SC fanboy and indeed what we have now worries me in terms of the flight model (personal subjective opinion).... however you cant imo read anything into the delay.

dont forget ED launch date was March 2014... and whilst it was "only" 9 months late, truth be told, it should really not have come out of gamma till after wings were working properly imo, which would have took it to 12 months late.

couple that with the fact that where as ED is going on a modular approach, SC is for the most part looking to drop all its content in 1 go.

The delays are important because it costs money. ED and SC have roughly been around for the same amount of time, give or take 6 months. Whilst ED has issues - it is out, and it is playable, and it has two updates and an expansion due in the next 16 weeks, SC is not doing very well. It's also wrong to say that:

"SC is for the most part looking to drop all its content in 1 go"

According to this. What worries me is how much of that budget they must have burnt through in 3 years of development, not forgetting that they had to set up studios from scratch to begin with. There is no "over budget" here, there's just "out of money".

 

[SuperG]

The delays are important because it costs money. ED and SC have roughly been around for the same amount of time, give or take 6 months. Whilst ED has issues it is out, and it is playable, and it has two updates and an expansion due in the next 16 weeks, SC is not doing very well. It's also wrong to say that:



According to this. What worries me is how much of that budget they must have burnt through in 3 years of development, not forgetting that they had to set up studios from scratch to begin with. There is no over budget here, there's just "out of money".

Yes delays are very important. For ED they finalize funding's so max is set. So delay can then be disastrous. Planning then is important. To stay within budged.

How ever SC was a small project so with production planning for something small. But grow really large. So those early and mid planning are not valid, so any milestones based on smaller feature sets. Delay are costly but the funds are still coming in. So there funds are growing. There is no max setting set. How ever it take more time. And they have the room to pass somewhat beyond milestones.
If you don't have a hard deadline and can produce without trouble of hitting a fund wall. Delay cost can be covered.

But we don't know there financial state. CR state he have margin that would be enough to finish what they got. But that his word.

But If you plan within budged you must avoid as much risk and stuff that makes planning undoable. So going for save this shows. These games are often barebones but in good shape. This is work on contract project base. Most common in game industry working for publisher to make there game.
Games that over shoot funds and didn't reach beta stage well that something like X-rebirth. Rushed out extreme case. Lot lesser example are a bit buggy game missing some polish. But this game misses fully playable implementations.
Then there are Game dev that follow it done when it done" Which means the have the fund backing to get the time they need to make something great.

SC is bit different. Although the funds are coming in it not clear if SC production cost to finish would be covered. It a could be a big variable. But they have some luxury to be able to handle delays.

 

[kilvenny]

Additional funding has dropped off in recent months and the number citizens is not growing significantly. That would suggest they are currently burning more than they are collecting. I don't see that being a problem any time soon, but it is going to eventually force a focus on releasing product prematurely to attract new punters which carries a danger of reduced reduced content and quality. If the burn rate is 2m dollars a month then they have 4 years development collected. If its 4m a month then we are down to 2 years. My guess is its somewhere in the middle of that and the last 18 months is probably at that rate. So Q4 2016/ Q1 2017 starts to look like a key period for me. FD quoted 4m sterling a year for 85 employees (6m dollars) in a mature software house; SC (circa 300) are hiring experienced people, actors and have start up costs for multiple offices so would be significantly greater.

 

[Viking]

Well I believe CR has said they are planning to release the game in Q4 2016, so if we accommodate for the usual delays, a release somewhere in the middle of 2017 does indeed seem realistic.

I think that CR's words here is believable. Because who am I to doubt his estimate? He's the best qualified to say something about a release date and until he says otherwise the end of 2016 is official.

 

[Cotic]

Hmm. It's hard to accept Roberts at his word when every single date/estimate he's given out has shot by with a difference of months as opposed to weeks.

 

[Instrument]

Hmm. It's hard to accept Roberts at his word when every single date/estimate he's given out has shot by with a difference of months as opposed to weeks.

lets hope
12 days and counting for the social module drop lets hope that he can hit this one as he gave this date less than a month out

 

[Virgil Tracy]

I think that CR's words here is believable. Because hwo am I to doubt his estimate? He's the best qualified to say something about a release date and until he says otherwise the end of 2016 is official.

Really? This is what he said in October 2102.

Chris Roberts interview from October 2012:

"You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?"

"Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale."

So, he said he'd already done a year's work and needed another 2 years... i.e. it would be ready by the end of 2014

That's what I backed when I funded him back in 2012. I believed him.

I know he got a lot more money than originally asked for and that people are now saying it means the scope of the game means a much longer development time with the game being out and ready anywhere from 2017 - 2020 depending on who you read.

But when we were concerned about stretch goals and scope creep meaning delays and a longer development we were told "No - parallel development means it shouldn't take longer" and we were worrying about nothing.

So when did they announce that there has been a major change of plan and that 2 years development it was now going to be more like 4,5,6 or whatever...

When did they say that because I must have missed it?

And for those of you who say you're happy to wait until 2019/20 whatever, well you're lucky to have that option. I have an illness which means I probably won't be around by then, which is why I'm upset that I haven't been playing the game for a year already as was originally promised in the Kickstarter.

When did they announce that they were changing the rules?

 

[bliss]

lets hope
12 days and counting for the social module drop lets hope that he can hit this one as he gave this date less than a month out

The first release of the social module is basically an empty map. Surely they can hit this deadline.