The griefers are coming, the griefers are coming, the griefers are starting to grow.

[Sysmon]

When there are contrasting targets in community goals, the odd scuffle should be expected. If the stations and outposts are doing nothing to stop random killing they are either unable to do so (small and insignificant, not caring (anarchy), or the mechanics around their activity are broken.

In case of CGs, one would expect a certain interest from the local power or at least Pilots Federation. The Feds themselves might have sent a good assortment of Navy showstoppers to haunt the troublemakers and protect the traders (isn't Hudson Orbital in Federal territory?) when trouble started, as one would assume the stations can communicate. The Pilots Federation needs a police force as well, as one would assume the CGs are backed by them and it is in their interest that they are undertaken in a civilised and efficient manner.

So yes, we still after all this time need a strong, automated, in-game response to the random and pointless killing.

S

 

[Lheim]

Simple solution for sensible PK consequences:

Temp ban obvious exploiters.

Add bounties people rack up for PKs onto their insurance rebuy when they're killed by Cmdrs.

Make murder cost more than 6000.

Done.

 

[h347h]

That's not the issue though. Killers are indeed expected. Killers without adequate consequences for those actions (when carried out in policed space or next to a station/outpost) is not.

Tell that to IRL.

 

[Khelder]

Tell that to IRL.

Are you suggesting that in real life you would not expect adequate consequences for killing? I don't know where you would have to be where that 'expectation' wouldn't be there. Sure, there are places where corruption and fear hold sway, but I'm pretty sure that society in general would still 'expect' a response. Or did I missunderstand?

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Should this not be merged with the Open/Groups/Solo Thread? It is just covering the same ground.

- - - Updated - - -

Simple solution for sensible PK consequences:

Temp ban obvious exploiters.

Add bounties people rack up for PKs onto their insurance rebuy when they're killed by Cmdrs.

Make murder cost more than 6000.

Done.

What do you mean by exploiters? People using station security as a defense or means to kill others? This may be the only solution, if the Ai cannot be made aware of what is happening and respond appropriately. If you just mean for people who PK in open, then I don;t agree.

 

[Kristov]

Should this not be merged with the Open/Groups/Solo Thread? It is just covering the same ground.

- - - Updated - - -



What do you mean by exploiters? People using station security as a defense or means to kill others? This may be the only solution, if the Ai cannot be made aware of what is happening and respond appropriately. If you just mean for people who PK in open, then I don;t agree.

And this is why you should read the thread instead of just posting to post...exploitation is happening at Hutton, ramming people at low speeds inside the no-fire zone, covered in the very first post no less.

 

[Rojo Habe]

The problem is the "griefers" are already in their server. It's called open. The players who hate "griefers" already have their servers called private and solo. Basically you want to ban those people from the only one server they had just because you don't like to "live by the sword". Please use the servers already you have and leave us "griefers" in our server named OPEN.

So if I go out walking in a public place and you walk up to me and shoot me in the head, that's my fault is it? For not staying at home?

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

As one of the people opposing these so-called pirates... No. Frontier should absolutely not intervene to prevent this sort of thing. This should be dealt with by in-game methods. On the other hand, if they wanted to make crime actually matter, I'd be all for that.

- - - Updated - - -

So if I go out walking in a public place and you walk up to me and shoot me in the head, that's my fault is it? For not staying at home?

It's a game. Not a valid comparison. Grow up and deal with it.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

And this is why you should read the thread instead of just posting to post...exploitation is happening at Hutton, ramming people at low speeds inside the no-fire zone, covered in the very first post no less.

Well are you aware this has been part of the game since Alpha? Not just at Hutton CG.

 

[Sandmann]

What do you mean by exploiters? People using station security as a defense or means to kill others? This may be the only solution, if the Ai cannot be made aware of what is happening and respond appropriately. If you just mean for people who PK in open, then I don;t agree.

And this is WHY it's pointless to demand that FDev "do something" about griefers... because one man's griefing is another man's legitimate gameplay, and because it'd require FDev to take a stand and make rules and definitions about the various things they have decided are griefing, and because it'd be impossible to accurately program the game to deal with it and it'd take human "moderators",none of which FDev want to do. This is because a lot of what makes it griefing or gameplay is intent, which software can't determine.

For the very same reasons nothing can or will be done about combat logging.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

So if I go out walking in a public place and you walk up to me and shoot me in the head, that's my fault is it? For not staying at home?

No one is saying it is your fault you died, a more accurate analogy would be "So I go play squash with another person and they beat me", it is a game, not a life or death situation involving ACTUAL violation of your person. Sure, peoples FEELINGS get hurt when this happens, but then they knew it was a risk.

- - - Updated - - -

And this is WHY it's pointless to demand that FDev "do something" about griefers... because one man's griefing is another man's legitimate gameplay, and because it'd require FDev to take a stand and make rules and definitions about the various things they have decided are griefing, and because it'd be impossible to accurately program the game to deal with it and it'd take human "moderators",none of which FDev want to do. This is because a lot of what makes it griefing or gameplay is intent, which software can't determine.

For the very same reasons nothing can or will be done about combat logging.

Killing other players is considered legitimate gameplay by FDEV, and that matters more than peoples opinions.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

It's a game. Not a valid comparison. Grow up and deal with it.

His comment was in response to this...

Tell that to IRL.

IRL stands for "in real life", in case you were unaware.

 

[Raile]

Forget griefers, I think we need to do something about those filthy explorers. Who do they think they are writing their name on every star and planet they discover

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Forget griefers, I think we need to do something about those filthy explorers. Who do they think they are writing their name on every star and planet they discover

Yeah, breaking my immersion with their silly commander names.

 

[CMDR Starschulz]

The harsher the punishment, the more degrading it becomes on everyone, not just those who it intends to punish.

And remember that there will always be a way to exploit a system, it cannot be perfect. someone will find something, and abuse it until a fix is put in place. Remember when there weren't speed limits near stations and you didn't have to worry about being blasted away when you were coming in hot and you hit a lonely sidewinder in your great anaconda?

Or maybe you remember when there was more than 20 cargo containers in a single instance? Some abused the lack of a limit to the detriment of other players and it was fixed. but now others suffer because of the limits put in to prevent such abuse.

Missile damage was reduced against shields because people used them to kill people in stations, and were given no compensation. But using chaff and shield cells to tank the station defenses was... ok?

Or maybe you found out about how gold farmers were abusing the bounty system to sell credits for real world money. now bounties only go up to 1 million per minor faction, making multi-million dollar bounty hunting against criminal players almost not worth the risks. even if you do aquire the bounty, you would still have to travel far to turn in and claim the money.


I read many ideas about making an attacker pay for their target's insurance cost, and even to go as far as to bankrupt them out of their own ship. but who is to decide whether the attack was with or without reason? anyone wanting to participate in PVP would suffer. I have yet to read any suggestions that are properly balanced and aren't someone angry because they lost an avoidable encounter.

 

[Kristov]

Well are you aware this has been part of the game since Alpha? Not just at Hutton CG.

And how often has it been used in the manner it's being used at Hutton currently? Flying in in Group/Solo, docking and repairing, switching to Open and ramming people just arriving at Hutton while inside the no-fire zone so no one can fire on you. And since all the targets have just made a .22LY flight and are at 37% or less structural integrity, hitting them once or twice is all it takes to destroy them, so they can't exactly ram you back.

I understand the low speed no-foul ramming bit, exploiting it as is being done is something totally different.

Again, I don't mind the pirating, I don't mind getting blasted without a word of explanation, so long as it's done without exploiting.

Exploiting in this fashion should be punished, simple and easy, if you disagree with that, well, I can think of only one reason why you'd be for allowing it...

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

And how often has it been used in the manner it's being used at Hutton currently? Flying in in Group/Solo, docking and repairing, switching to Open and ramming people just arriving at Hutton while inside the no-fire zone so no one can fire on you. And since all the targets have just made a .22LY flight and are at 37% or less structural integrity, hitting them once or twice is all it takes to destroy them, so they can't exactly ram you back.

I understand the low speed no-foul ramming bit, exploiting it as is being done is something totally different.

Again, I don't mind the pirating, I don't mind getting blasted without a word of explanation, so long as it's done without exploiting.

Exploiting in this fashion should be punished, simple and easy, if you disagree with that, well, I can think of only one reason why you'd be for allowing it...

Loads. Ever been to Leesti? These guys hang around places other than Hutton. They dealt with it by adding the speeding condition, but obviously it needs more work. It is not an impossible fix, but given FD's previous way of dealing with it, I would not expect bans to be handed out. They usually engineer a better solution. Also, you cannot assume that because I am not in favor of external punishment for player killing by ramming, means I engage in the tactic myself. It is also possible that I would like to see REAL solutions, not draconian ones. We have all been there, I myself became GREATLY annoyed at watching other players die at the hands of a griefer in a type 9 in Leesti, he was uploading it to you tube as a montage, killing haulers and cobras in the station without punishment. FD engineered a solution to that, the problem used to be FAR worse. People could float around inside the Coriolis for minutes, smashing everyone at high speed who came in or out. There is no need to lump me in with the people who are doing this. I am 500 light years away in a metallic asteroid field..

 

[CMDR LACEWING]

Forget griefers, I think we need to do something about those filthy explorers. Who do they think they are writing their name on every star and planet they discover

Wouldn't surprise me if it'll become CODE's next "RP" excuse for blowing up random commanders.

 

[Heavensburn]

Or maybe you remember when there was more than 20 cargo containers in a single instance? Some abused the lack of a limit to the detriment of other players and it was fixed. but now others suffer because of the limits put in to prevent such abuse.

<sigh>Sometimes I wish that hadn't been nerfed. The Code dumping about a gazillion biowaste containers in Lave Station was one of the funniest things I've seen in this galaxy. I laughed so hard, I damn near had my own biowaste accident.

 

[Khelder]

No one is saying it is your fault you died, a more accurate analogy would be "So I go play squash with another person and they beat me", it is a game, not a life or death situation involving ACTUAL violation of your person. Sure, peoples FEELINGS get hurt when this happens, but then they knew it was a risk.

Killing other players is considered legitimate gameplay by FDEV, and that matters more than peoples opinions.

Actually, it certainly sounds like some are suggesting that it is their fault because they chose to play in Open. I don't think the real question of the original analogy should have been if the person being shot was at fault for leaving their home. I think the real problem is what happens to the person doing the shooting.

Think about that scenario and then what you would realistically here in the news. The broadcast wouldn't be, 'Guy got shot this afternoon. He should have stayed at home.' The broadcast would more likely be, 'Brazen killer shoots man on street. City-wide police hunt for dangerous criminal continues.' Depending on the situation, there may be comments from people along the lines of, 'Well, he shouldn't have been in that dangerous area all alone.' That's fair enough. There are anarchy systems in ED too where you stray at your own risk. But in civilised (and enforced) systems, you would expect an adequate response to murder.

Killing other players is legitimate gameplay in ED. But there was supposed to be legitimate consequences as well. These haven't eventuated yet.

Also, just because you may not be physically touching someone in real life does not mean that you are not ACTUALLY violating that person. Cyber-bullying is a thing. There have been real life situations where people have been overwhelmed and in some cases committed suicide as a result of harassment and bullying via Twitter, Facebook, and the like. I am not suggesting that simply being attacked in this game is anywhere close to those scenarios. But please don't be under the illusion that your actions in a multi-player game with real people do not have a real affect on other people. It seems so easy for people to disconnect from common decency when they cannot see the person they are dealing with.