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It really is solid. Increasing response of police or bounties takes the response out of the hands of the players and puts it into the realm of PVE. Again, people do not want to PVP so the response to PVP is lackluster. The only way to fix this is to remove PVP!
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I figured...but in this thread...a joke like that could get out of hand quickly! ;P
"The chances that a player that doesn't want a given type of play and it is forced upon them is what does" - No one is forcing you to play in Open, no one is forcing you to play a Space Game with Combat and Piracy.
" PvP in this game forces activity on those that do not want it."
Well if they put a PvP tag next to Open play, that would solve the issue entirely. Other games with PvP servers have always worked like this. We can pretend every single attack on an unsuspecting player in a PvP environment was non-consensual, but that would be intellectually dishonest. No one is being "forced" to do anything. Even in solo, private, an NPC can "force" you into combat and destroy your ship for arbitary reasons, because it was told to do so. It appears the only difference is that when a player does it, it hurts the feelings of the person being interdicted a lot more. Or is it only a violation of consent when another human interdicts you?
"The issue as you see it is that those that do not want to PVP in some way should be forced to fight other players directly over positions of morality." - No, this is a strawman. No one is being forced to do anything. This is like playing Tetris and claiming the game is forcing you to put blocks into lines against your will.
"Just do away with the problem all together. It will give us all peace"
No it wont give us "all" any peace, you have made nothing but mean spirited comments against people who, for all intense and purposes, are just playing Elite Dangerous. I have no idea why you would be so offended at the prospect of people playing a game as intended. It is not just that your position is extreme, but you have made specific claims about players, offensive ones. You did not retract them either, so I take it you stand by them. It sounds like you do not want "peace", you seem more interested in denying others a game for reasons of "morality". It may also be possible FD ignore all the PK that happens because it was the way it was intended. After all, the other possibility is they just forgot to get rid of PvP and add a PvE gamemode.
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This is what happens whenever devs use rewards to attract unwilling players. If all that the player cares is the rewards then he will do whatever it takes to get the reward with the least possible effort. Many such players won't even care if they are ruining the game for others in their quest for the rewards.
You can see this in the PvP issues of many MMOs, where players often collectively decide to bypass the game in order to get the rewards. Like the losing pre-mades or the cordial swapping of the Tol Barad citadel in WoW, the three factions swapping bases without defending or even fighting in TSW, the whole of early Ilum in TOR, and many other cases. Every time the devs make must-have rewards for PvP, enough players will aim for the rewards, without caring for the game or even if they are ruining it for those that actually enjoy the PvP, to create large issues.
Because of that, I doubt any kind of communication tool or other peripheral improvements will "fix" how players engage in Powerplay. Too many players there that don't care at all about Powerplay and merely want the reward, which means getting them on the same page is about impossible.
So, how to solve it?
The main solution would be to make the activity itself enjoyable, so the players sabotaging it for the rewards decide to instead play it in earnest. Easier said than done, unfortunately, and I really can't offer insights about PowerPlay here; the very core of it is unenjoyable for me.
If that isn't possible, create different ways to get the same rewards, so players have a choice in how they get those rewards. Hopefully one of the choices will be enjoyable enough to each player to get him playing it for fun, instead of only pressing on for the reward.
Theoretically, a third way is to tweak how rewards are granted so only activities that improve the enjoyment for other players are rewarded. Might be workable the day computers become able to tell apart what is enjoyable and what isn't.
Frontier can't. The game is PEGI-7, which means that either the game must allow players to never meet anyone else, or else each and every player interaction must be curated.
And, when I say "curated", I mean preventing anything, in speech or act, that is inappropriate for a 7 years old kid. Costs aside, I doubt anyone here would ever want that.
They could theoretically increase the rating of the game, of course. If they want to deal with child protection agencies all over the world inquiring why they sold to children something that isn't appropriate for them anymore, and what they plan to do about it, which would likely require a no-questions-asked refund policy. I somehow don't see Frontier going that way.
And this doesn't even get into all the other reasons, legal and otherwise, Frontier can't and shouldn't remove Solo.
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My 'spirit' is not mean towards anyone...and if that is how I come across I apologize. What I am hoping on doing here, and with your help it is succeeding, is having an intelligent discussion about the state of PVP and PVE in this game...and help people realize that PVP is not needed, serves no purpose in the game, and is coming close to becoming irrelevant to everyone.
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I already did put my two cents in, about an hour ago, you got rep and I seconded the notion. Seems fair..
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It is one solution - whether others share your opinion that it is a "great" solution is open to debate. Regarding the modes being equal and valid:
It will be interesting to see whether Guild proponents get what they are expecting with the introduction of player supported Minor Factions. As to crafting - I don't think that it was ever a definite no - and it will be very interesting to discover how "Looting and Crafting" tie in together in Season 2.
Frontier will do whatever they think that they need to do - and they are the only ones who have access to the game's statistics to be able to use them to inform their decision making process.
Well as one of the "Guild Proponents" (I prefer the term Commander), it sounds like I am getting pretty much what I wanted! I found it heartwarming as well, that the news was released a day or so after being told by many that I was unlikely ever to get what I wanted with regards to these features. In my opinion, an Open PvP universe with player factions competing to drive the BGS, from their home systems, is about the best news I heard regarding the core game. As for FD being the only ones with access to the games statistics..Cool
I don;t think I ever wanted to know too much about what goes on behind the curtain, as it demystifies the game for me. I think we will see over time whether or not the Minor Factions "ruins the game", as so many feared. I think it will be so much better.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
For me it's a case of "hope for the best, plan for the worst".
That is a good attitude. I fear so many were just "hoping for the Worst", given they were so opposed to the feature.
Well as one of the "Guild Proponents" (I prefer the term Commander), it sounds like I am getting pretty much what I wanted! I found it heartwarming as well, that the news was released a day or so after being told by many that I was unlikely ever to get what I wanted with regards to these features. In my opinion, an Open PvP universe with player factions competing to drive the BGS, from their home systems, is about the best news I heard regarding the core game. As for FD being the only ones with access to the games statistics..Cool
It will depend on the Open/PVP issue that so many are concerned about.
If people fly through a 'controlled' system and are constantly attacked by the 'owner's' there will be some jimmie rustling occurring...the more groups that play this way...the larger the amoung of jiimmies and rustling will occur.
I happens anyway though. It may even prevent your jimmies from being Rustled, Powerplay made many routes safer for me, given people were too busy looking for enemy factions, rather than lone traders who are basically bringing goods to their home system, which should bolster the controlling faction (assuming it works like it does now). Players can even get an allied and friendly rep maybe (again assuming it is just like an NPC faction, I have no idea right now).
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Shifting populations to hot spots, making the galaxy safer, is generally, a step to far for this discussion.
People will see other people killing folks to prevent them from getting into their sandbox and call foul. That is as far as the discussion will get. 'This game is designed to prevent ownership because we are not supposed to be special snowflakes is THE reason we have things in the game and this CANNOT change!'
So, ownership is bad. Control is bad. There is a strong case being made currently that removal of local factions SHOULD be implemented. Although this case is being made for NPC factions...this will also have to extend to PC factions.
Once this occurs...no player faction will ever be safe from extinction.
Well you may think it is bad, and that is your opinion. But it is coming nonetheless, and is being developed by FD to be included into the game. Whether or not it was in the original vision is probably irrelevant now. They said players can start or adopt minor factions and name them, and pick a home system. NPC factions already exist in the game. I don't see why player factions should be safe from extinction at all, anymore than I see the need for an invulnerable commander who cannot lose his ship.
Well, if this is what the guild proponents wanted, then I am guilty of misreading the guilds thread over and over again. I have no problems with FD's implementation of minor factions. Where I play in the lonesome universe it will be business as usual, the effected stations will just show a player faction in place of the current AI faction. What I understood the guildies wanted was control of said stations, to prevent other players from using them without kissi....er....securing their permission, and other sweeping powers favored by autocrats everywhere. I could not care less if it's a player faction or an AI faction on the right panel. That's all the same to me.
So apologies. If this is what guild proponents wanted all along, I just misunderstood you, and this addition to the game is fine by me. However, I still suspect that guild proponents wanted so much more.
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Well as one of the "Guild Proponents" (I prefer the term Commander), it sounds like I am getting pretty much what I wanted! I found it heartwarming as well, that the news was released a day or so after being told by many that I was unlikely ever to get what I wanted with regards to these features. In my opinion, an Open PvP universe with player factions competing to drive the BGS, from their home systems, is about the best news I heard regarding the core game. As for FD being the only ones with access to the games statistics..Cool
I might be mixing things up, but weren't the minor factions merely NPC factions that get promoted to powers through player action? As in, players won't have any more control over them than they currently have over the powers?
It's quite far from the kind of player-led factions that many players don't want in the game, and I don't see anything in that idea that would be any worse than the current Powerplay is.
This was suggested long before mega thread 1.
And it was countered in every mega thread (linked in my sig).
Yes FD did say all modes are valid, they also said they are blanced - linked in my sig (last link)
So open does not need anything to the rewards.
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Solo / Group advocates tried for concessions but Open advocates refused and continued to be insulting and making wild demands.
Read the past 2 megas and you'll see it for yourself.
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Also, Solo is not "easier" - I've personally proven Open is no different, as has other mode switching advocates. Also, Open is instanced - so who in open would get bonuses? as someone in Open could be placed in a Solo instance for what ever technical reason the game sees fit - how is it fair a person in a solo instance in open gets a bonus, but a solo player doesn't despite being EXACTLY the same situation.
Saying Solo is easier is a specious argument at best, at the monst honest it is an out right lie to push an agenda.
People do attack Mobius from the Open advocates camp though. In a litteral sense as CODE members joined Mobius and started griefing other players and focing PvP in a group made for PvE players.
How do you feel about that?
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"Spice and danger" are a personal preferance. I play the game to relax, looking at my scanner every 5 seconds is not relaxing for me.
I joined Mobius so I could relax, but again I cannot due to players still being able to force their game style on everyone else, as proven by CODE.
Also, not everyone in Open knows about Mobius - so you cannot count them as PvP votes, they have not been given the choice (a choice Open advocates don't want showing as they fear people would leave Open PvP or a real Open PvE mode). Less than 10% of the player base know about Mobius, as it's only advertised on the forums.
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As for the tag line "Play it your way" - that is an out right lie from FD. PvE players cannot play a multiplayer space game with others their way - as PvP players can force unwanted PvP on the PvE players, even in their own private group.
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I was lead to belive I could PvE when I want to with others, and I could PvP when I want to with others - but in truth, it's Solo or PvP. There is no PvE choice.
Even the new game mode is PvP (CQC).
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Some of us want the "Play your way" to actually cater for everyone - as we were told it would.
You keep misinterpreting MY beliefs in what I write. I am only explaining to you a couple thousand post thread, from others points of view. If you are unaware, check my sig. I am involved with one of the longest running guilds in the game...that I think is also amongst one of the most successful in the game at attaining stated goals. I understand what guilds want, but also understand that many of those desires are not going to occur because the game does not allow for it.
Just to be clear, guilds are an illusion of control within this game. A guild only exists because the community allows it to. If the community feels that a group is acting outside the rules of the game, they can either fight against your guild to remove its influence from the game...or worse, completely ignore your interactions and fly around you. This is by design..and will not change. It would be nice to have a guild owned station...and I have argued for that in other places. However, I do not ever expect to see this occur...because the implication goes against the stated design of the game.
You might look at power play and say 'But our group can become a power! You can control that!' What you are not seeing is that once any group becomes a Power...they are not owned by those that created the group any more. You have lost complete control of the group and the group plays, and exists in PowerPlay, at the whim of the community. So the largest reward a player group can achieve is that their group, and the content they provide, turn into an NPC.
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