Is this a rip off? Or is this Frontier first encounters all over again?

[sporadic_kit]

Dear Frontier,

I'd like to have a better understanding of when this game will be released. I pledged £35 for the game on kickstarter all that time ago and it was said back then that elite dangerous would be released in March 2014.

You are now asking for £75 to play the Alpha / Beta version and on your forum you state:

"As you know the Alpha has several stages to get through and the Beta stages cannot commence until the Alpha is completed. Because of this it is not possible to give you an timeframe. The best thing to do is to keep your eyes here as all the latest information will go right to this place. "

It seems to me like the longer you keep on charging people £75 to play ( people that already pledged £35) then the more money you are making and the more money we are spending. Is this fair, given that you haven't yet indicted when the final version will be available? Is this whole thing a rip off? Will the game ever materialize?

Three words then spring to mind. Frontier First Encounters (oh yes that old chestnut). Many people who backed this may not remember what happened there, but that game never got released on the Amiga, even after it was marketed as being available frontier started taking orders on it, selling it then..... nothing. Many disappointed and messed about customers. Including me.

As an initial backer, that makes me and the rest of the backers key project stakeholders. I understand that project milestone dates slip and I also understand that the game needs to fully tested. I don't find it acceptable that your communication of project progress and future project milestones has been so poor.

At the very least, your project manager should issue Bi-Weekly project updates to all stakeholders. Most importantly, to your paying customers. Even if dates slip which of course they will, that's fine, theres probably a good reason for that. We deserve to know. Even if you don't want to commit to dates, at the very least let us know how many more stages it has to go through (and how many more costs for us there will be along the way).

I appreciate your consideration of my frustration here.

Thank you.

 

[Ixnatifual]

Braben recently said he believed the game would be ready for retail release by the end of the year. Don't know the history of First Encounters, but ED seems very real judging from the videos posted.

 

[Valenquo]

And for those that pledged £35, you will have access to the Gamma phase which I guess will be a soft release with a wipe at the end of the phase coming out before retail.

As mentioned here: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11113

Alpha, Beta and Gamma Dates.

Alpha is now live, this will continue until Frontier decides that the game is ready to goto Premium Beta (1st stage), this is scheduled for early 2014 at the moment, but Frontier will announce details when they are ready to proceed.

Currently these are set as follows.

Alpha Phases 1.0 started December 2013 (£200) includes expansion pass
Alpha Phase 2.0 started 4th Feb 2014 (£200) includes expansion pass
Beta Phase Premium Beta (formally 1st beta) to start after Alpha has finished. (£100) includes expansion pass
Beta Phase Standard Beta (formally 2nd beta) to start after Premium Beta has finished. (£50)
Gamma Phase to start after Standard Beta has finished. (£35)
Commercial release end part of 2014

With the new upgrades option you can now include your original pledge in your price when upgrading to a higher level. This includes the expansion pass

Please note: These dates are estimates and can change.

 

[sporadic_kit]

That's really nice of him to say that... Who did he say it to? Some guy while he was on a cigarette break?

So the project will be delivered (only) 1 year late. Fine. We all want the game to be the very best it can be. They need to sort out their communication as its not acceptable to just keep charging us money for countless releases.

How many stages will there be in the Alpha release? Will we have to pay for each one?

How many stages will there be in the Beta release? Same question.

Any other releases that we'll have to pay for that didn't get properly communicated yet??????

Not acceptable.

 

[OillyRag]

you will have access to the Gamma phase which I guess will be a soft release with a wipe at the end of the phase

Not sure there will be a wipe at the end of Gamma.

Well to be honest, I hope there wont anyway

 

[JohnStabler]

I pledged £35 for the game on kickstarter all that time ago and it was said back then that elite dangerous would be released in March 2014.

No, they said the *estimated* release date was March.

Three words then spring to mind. Frontier First Encounters (oh yes that old chestnut). Many people who backed this may not remember what happened there, but that game never got released on the Amiga, even after it was marketed as being available frontier started taking orders on it, selling it then..... nothing

Was it Frontier or the publisher that did that?

At the very least, your project manager should issue Bi-Weekly project updates to all stakeholders. Most importantly, to your paying customers. Even if dates slip which of course they will, that's fine, theres probably a good reason for that. We deserve to know. Even if you don't want to commit to dates, at the very least let us know how many more stages it has to go through (and how many more costs for us there will be along the way).

Different people have different expectations of what constitutes regular updates. Some people are happy with the current newsletters. Others want a big red telephone they can pick up so they can pester Michael Brookes.

They have told us what stages they need to go through (alpha, beta, gamma). They even went so far as to tell us that beta comes after alpha and gamma comes after beta.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

No one likes delays but to be honest it happens in almost all software projects.
ED is nothing new there...... but even if it is I doubt it will be a year.

Worst case scenario (in my head, I have nothing to back this up) I reckon the game will retail launch on the 30th anniversary (so i think that is September) with the gamma coming maybe 3 months before then. IF that happens that would be only a 6 month delay - less if you take into account Gamma, so maybe only 3 or 4 months delay then - not really world ending.

Am not going to get into the alpha being extended, plenty of other threads cover that, or on the communication, also covered with a search..

FFE released on the amiga? wow that would have been painful, Frontier was bordering on unplayable on the A500 (not great even on my 1200).

FFE is a good point however. (Far) better to delay a little bit rather than have an FFE disaster release (which I went through as i bought on launch on the pc)

Finally........... As for the Gamma, It is my understanding there WONT be a wipe after gamma unless a huge game breaker is found.



PS there will be 2 more major Alpha releases after the current multiplayer one
there will be 2 beta releases
then there will be gamma which is almost finished and fully playable but with a little tweaking still going on.

 

[Alien]

It's a bit unfair to criticise the release date, esp as this is common in game development all the time. Yes the game was stated to be released in March 2014, but Frontier have to get it right.

You complain about the release date being pushed back further and further and mention First Encounters, yet with FFE, it was the publisher who forced the release too early, this is exactly what Frontier are NOT doing.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Yes with 35 pounds, you can start playing the gamma which should begin in 2-4 months. Gamma is an almost final version

 

[JohnStabler]

How many stages will there be in the Alpha release? Will we have to pay for each one?

There are 4 stages. 2 have been rolled out already. No, you don't pay per stage.

How many stages will there be in the Beta release? Same question.

2. They are referred to Beta 1 and Beta 2. No, you don't pay per stage.

Any other releases that we'll have to pay for that didn't get properly communicated yet??????

Not that I know of.

 

[Yaffle]

There is this from Michael too:

In the latest newsletter we've said that there are two more major alpha releases.

The reason we've been adding opportunities for people to join in the alpha because they wanted to, we were happy to have a hard cut off, but many of you wanted to join in so we have facilitated that.

As for extending the alpha to gain more revenue that arguement doesn't make financial sense, we want the game to go to retail to sell to the wider world.

Michael

Emphasis mine.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I appreciate your consideration of my frustration here.

First, if you really interested in FD answer, please contact them directly. They will provide more detailed answer what and why. All we can do is to provide information what we do know.

Second, Kickstarter dates were estimates. Estimates changes, especially during 1 year of development. That's a nature of game development. Alpha made a target, however alpha takes longer than planned.

Third, we are not paying customers. We supported game with our pledges. And game gets delivered. Seems everything fine.

Four, alpha will have two additional phases, traveling/trading and outfitting - as explained in last newsletter. When they will start/end it is not possible to tell, because game is in alpha testing.

Fifth, people *required* to have some kind of update from beta to alpha. Btw, you got numbers wrong, if you have 35 bgp pledge, you have to pay 165 bgp to upgrade, there's no 75 bgp upgrade to alpha anywhere. It is same old version of backer app upgrade, but as it is not available anymore, people still wanted to do that, so FD provided means.

I would like to point out that as alpha tester I would strongly disagree with "rip off" claims. Duration of alpha testing phase was set way too optimistic during Kickstarter. We test multiplayer combat now, and it have ton of stuff to fix. It is most complex thing in game though, so I think last two alpha phases will be shorter.

About any new estimates - we can only guess, but I suspect beta at the end of March, and gamma in June. That gives 3 month testing period till September when I suspect game will start to get PR for be released on retail. "End of the year" release isn't that big mystery - Elite has anniversary at the end of September, and FD wants to use it for obvious reasons.

Said all that, you will get to play game in June, if you pledged for copy of the game. I don't like to call it 'gamma', because essentially it is a 'backer's release'. FD will tweak game here and there, but for 99% it will be finished.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yes with 35 pounds, you can start playing the gamma which should begin in 2-4 months. Gamma is an almost final version

I would FD to ditch "gamma" label, and call it simply "backer's release". It would be less confusing too.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And for those that pledged £35, you will have access to the Gamma phase which I guess will be a soft release with a wipe at the end of the phase coming out before retail.

FD has stressed it enough that gamma won't have any kind of reset, unless absolutely necessary. Heck, they even say they will try to avoid resets in betas.

 

[kfriman]

A few months extra waiting is nothing compared to waiting after FFE the next Elite. And I really don't mind the game to be really finished and polished before releasing This will most likely be worth extra waiting. Now we get at least information on how it is progressing, of course more information doesn't hurt

 

[Kroy]

The op's frustration may well be borne out of a lack of consistent, well written and concise communications from FD in a clear and prominent position. For example, from the front of this page of elite's home page to this page:

http://elite.frontier.co.uk/about/#.Uvy-L2J_t8E

it seems fair that you could find an answer to the question "in what timeframe can I expect to play this awesome game you are developing" directly off the front page. Even if the answer is exactly that which is given by T.J. (an unpaid forum moderator) in the link provided by Valenquo above.

FDev should not expect people to come moan on the forums to have this information put in front of them.

I will happily defend FDev when someone is posting something which is otherwise plastered in a clear-view manner on their website, but I don't think the information should be buried in a forum. This is a website content issue, and it should be easy to resolve.

And to put my time where my mouth is and do what I can to help - I'll stick some further information over as a sticky or better yet a wiki on the subreddit over at www.reddit.com/r/elitedangerous which would become a good place to send people for this kind of useful information.

 

[Mark Boss]

Dear Frontier,

I'd like to have a better understanding of when this game will be released. I pledged £35 for the game on kickstarter all that time ago and it was said back then that elite dangerous would be released in March 2014.

You are now asking for £75 to play the Alpha / Beta version and on your forum you state:

"As you know the Alpha has several stages to get through and the Beta stages cannot commence until the Alpha is completed. Because of this it is not possible to give you an timeframe. The best thing to do is to keep your eyes here as all the latest information will go right to this place. "

It seems to me like the longer you keep on charging people £75 to play ( people that already pledged £35) then the more money you are making and the more money we are spending. Is this fair, given that you haven't yet indicted when the final version will be available? Is this whole thing a rip off? Will the game ever materialize?

Three words then spring to mind. Frontier First Encounters (oh yes that old chestnut). Many people who backed this may not remember what happened there, but that game never got released on the Amiga, even after it was marketed as being available frontier started taking orders on it, selling it then..... nothing. Many disappointed and messed about customers. Including me.

As an initial backer, that makes me and the rest of the backers key project stakeholders. I understand that project milestone dates slip and I also understand that the game needs to fully tested. I don't find it acceptable that your communication of project progress and future project milestones has been so poor.

At the very least, your project manager should issue Bi-Weekly project updates to all stakeholders. Most importantly, to your paying customers. Even if dates slip which of course they will, that's fine, theres probably a good reason for that. We deserve to know. Even if you don't want to commit to dates, at the very least let us know how many more stages it has to go through (and how many more costs for us there will be along the way).

I appreciate your consideration of my frustration here.

Thank you.

Hi,

First of all I'm sorry you feel this way, we try to respect all our backers wishes, because without them we wouldn't have a game to make, so please understand that we care.

In this occasion though there's not much else that can be done I'm afraid. I have spoken to Michael Brookes regarding this and when it comes down to it, each phase lasts as long as it needs to, therefore it's pretty hard to estimate when the next phase will be released. There's still a number of fixes being done to the current build, once those are out of the way, more info will become available.

Try to remember that we're trying to make the best game possible and please as many of the backers as possible via constant communication with you guys, whether that be through the forums, Twitter or Facebook.
That's why things like the Design Discussion Forum, the Dev Diaries and the Newsletters exist.

In response to other queries - Money from Alpha and Beta purchases goes straight to the development of Elite: Dangerous. It's an extension of the Kickstarter.

As mentioned by Valenquo the list of phases can be found here - http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11113

I hope this reply helps in your query and we appreciate your support

 

[Squicker]

The op's frustration may well be borne out of a lack of consistent, well written and concise communications from FD in a clear and prominent position.

Well put.

The comms from FD is, in a word, utter crap. Actually, that's two words ;-)

I absolutely understand that they cannot publish a definitive timeline, but they do need to share the reason for the estimate not being met.

Estimates are estimates, they are prone to slip, we all understand this. But we are not just customers, we are also project investors and therefore an explanation of the reason for the estimate to slip is expected. I re-iterate, I do not think that it would be in anyone's interests for FD to publish a timeline at this point.

All FD have done is put someone on the front-line who simply says, "it'll be ready when it's ready". Yes, well, I think we could all work that one out, we're not little children.

I asked an outright question of the reason for the slippage on another thread, and it was completely ignored, even though what seems to be FD's comms bod (can't recall his name) posted an answer to someone else a few posts later. From this I deduce that FD have no intention of answering that question, which in itself is rather scary. If there's nothing massively wrong, why shy away from answering a straightforward question?

Honestly, if my business treated its investors and customer like this I'd be out of business.

I have now formed the view that FD posted a near random estimated release date on KS to get the $$ rolling in, when they must have known that was not acheivable. It seems incredibly unlikely that their planning was that out (est March release, now end of 2014 - something like a 75% discrepancy in planning) unless they have come across a very serious problem(s) in alpha.

Additionally, the KS charter says projects must 'share the journey with backers, speedbumps and all'. So FD are not playing ball with us or KS.

I'm out of patience with them and already have shifted interest to other games that *do* keep their communities informed and engaged. FD have my money, there's not a lot I can do about that, but in my case, FD's inexperience\lack of interest in communications, has turned an Elite devotee from back in the day, into someone starting to get skeptical of their ability to deliver. I mean, one of the first things drafted in any formal project is a solid communication plan, FD don't seem to have a cohesive one, so what else do they not have?

One thing I will say, is that it is not tenable that FD will keep alpha rolling as long as possible to generate cash. For various reasons, the take-up of alpha upgrades seems to have not been that high (from reading the forum I deduce this) plus the burn rate of keeping on board a full team of developers, testers etc probably outpaces any money they make from alpha upgrades.

So, I think FD want to deliver the best game they can as soon as they can (general release is the only time they start to generate any real revenue) but I am starting to question their ability to deliver, simply because they can't even deliver good quality comms.

 

[Dejay]

BTW where there any "stretch goals" for ED? Oh just googled, more ships
I don't know when they announced march, before or after the end of those.
But it's natural that strech goals increase the development time. Your fault for giving that much money!

But seriously predicting software development is notoriously impossible. From the videos and feedback there is obviously a lot happening and FD is working hard and very structured. They could now say they'll release at X but when they slip THAT again... in a way a slip makes you more hesitant to predict new date

I'm not concerned about the release date, but I did think the last newsletters were rather light on new details about content, ships, planets etc. Just boring multiplayer alpha. Ok it's only boring if you don't have the alpha lol.

 

[Stoo]

I love a good moan, don't you?