Exploring for profit vs. exploring for the experience

[Ushgarak]

Not sure why one view is functional and the other isn't? .

Well, this is really getting into semantics, but like I mentioned above, exploring for profit is functional because that is seeing exploration as a functional tool to a particular end- making money. Exploring for the experience does not see exploration as a function at all- it sees the process itself as the entire point of playing. That's what 'functional' means in this particular circumstance. I didn't mean 'functional' as in one works and the other doesn't.

Also as I noted above- yes, this is not a digital issue; all explorers will be to some extent interested in both, but nonetheless there are still two different approaches to this being espoused by some people. You simply cannot do both at once and they both require different approaches that the game mechanics would need to cover differently. There isn't really a simple "It doesn't matter because I'll do both" kind of answer possible here, really. If you say you are doing both because you want to use the money for more joy from exploring- that's not actually wanting both from the perspective of this thread. It's decidedly putting you into the latter group of doing it for the experience- if you didn't HAVE to go back and sell up to prolong the experience, you wouldn't bother; the money is only useful to you in as far as it lets you do more exploring. If you had infinite fuel and exploring cost nothing, you would do it forever (or at least a very long time). In contrast, if I couldn't make money from exploring, I wouldn't even start, even if I had infinite fuel and it didn't cost anything. It's just a means to an end for me- which is not to say I won't enjoy the means, as that is why I choose to do it, but if it didn't lead to a practical end, there would literally be no point to me.

Right now, if you want to make money from exploration, there's plenty of information about how this is likely to work in the game. If you want to know how long you can keep on going out and out and out, how you would maintain and fuel yourself, and how often you'd be forced to return home, there's almost no information. We have two related but still separate areas of the game here, both being referred to as exploration, but we only have information about one.

 

[Valenquo]

Depending on how pilot to plilot interaction works in space, maybe a group of pilots could get organized with one of them piloting a larger, trader\cargo ship as a main outpost and the others in their Asp and Cobras MkIII.

The cargo ships (let's say Anaconda) would have enough cargo fro repairs, ammo and supply and could jump to an uncharted system that would become the main outpost system, while the other pilots would jump from that system and explore other systems, only needing to return back to the Anaconda when needed, and not civilized space.

That would also be a great way to play co-op.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Right now, if you want to make money from exploration, there's plenty of information about how this is likely to work in the game. If you want to know how long you can keep on going out and out and out, how you would maintain and fuel yourself, and how often you'd be forced to return home, there's almost no information. We have two related but still separate areas of the game here, both being referred to as exploration, but we only have information about one.

EDGE MAGAZINE: "Even when you know there's a star there; you don't know what's in its system. Ultimately, there will be things for explorers to find, not just [the opportunity to] name systems. One hundred years ago, 200 years ago, people could go out adventuring and find things that other people hand't seen before - that's been lost. I love that spirit, that once you're out of the few tens of thousand, or hundreds of thousands, of systems that people will regularly frequent, generally you'll be on your own..."

Quote: David Braben

I don't think the two notions of exploration are mutually exclusive. Exploring for the sense of experience, will inevitably result in some type of profit or reward. That is the nature of exploration.

 

[Ushgarak]

EDGE MAGAZINE: "Even when you know there's a star there; you don't know what's in its system. Ultimately, there will be things for explorers to find, not just [the opportunity to] name systems. One hundred years ago, 200 years ago, people could go out adventuring and find things that other people hand't seen before - that's been lost. I love that spirit, that once you're out of the few tens of thousand, or hundreds of thousands, of systems that people will regularly frequent, generally you'll be on your own..."

Quote: David Braben

I don't think the two notions of exploration are mutually exclusive. Exploring for the sense of experience, will inevitably result in some type of profit or reward. That is the nature of exploration.

I can really only point you back to what I already said there. It'is about what people want to do with it. The difference between people who are doing it for the experience and those for the money is pretty much one that makes the two distinct, even though both groups will of course benefit from both areas. Obviously I, as a profit-seeker, plan to enjoy the experience and those looking for the experience aren't just going to turn down any money they can easily make. However, I am never going to do what some people propose- to go out there and keep going as far as possible, perhaps infinitely if that was possible, which is an experience that has nothing to do with money beyond how much you need to make it possible.. Likewise, those that want that experience aren't going to be like me and have their options dominated by what makes the most money; instead, they will want what gives them the best exploration experience. In many ways, needing money to keep going is simply an obstacle to them that they will want to get around as much as possible, whilst for the for-profit types, making money is the entire point.

The Braben quote doesn't say anything about range or fuel or self-maintenance or anything at all useful for those seeking just to fly out there as long as they can, only caring about the money for as much as it allows them to go out further. For someone like me, I don't really care about that and the current info we have, about how to make money from it, is what I need. The DDF covers the money-making angle, so I know what I need to know about exploration, but those wanting a long-term experience do not. There are two different areas, and they are related but still dissimilar.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

The Braben quote doesn't say anything about range or fuel or self-maintenance or anything at all useful for those seeking just to fly out there as long as they can, only caring about the money for as much as it allows them to go out further. For someone like me, I don't really care about that and the current info we have, about how to make money from it, is what I need. The DDF covers the money-making angle, so I know what I need to know about exploration, but those wanting a long-term experience do not. There are two different areas, and they are related but still dissimilar.

There is more info on that further in the magazine. Basically hydrogen scoops to refuel remotely. Though that's not new information.

And I agree, there isn't much information about that aspect of exploration. It would be nice to see some more...

 

[NeilF]

The second idea is those who want to explore for no reason other than the experience of exploration itself, for the joy of seeing new things and recording their experiences; of setting off into the effectively infinite space that ED offers and see what is out there.

The game engine will need to be something pretty special to achieve this IMHO, and furthermore a lot of dedicated hand-crafted content will need to be generated too IMHO.

I know a lot of people see procedural generation as the answer to all these worries, but I see it as more difficult.

I want to be able to fly to new systems with the potential to see something new or beautiful. I do not count different coloured stars, or planets with variations of atmosphere in this department. While most systems will obviously differ only by things like this, there needs to be special and unique rare features. Some will of course be procedural, but many need to be down to hard crafted content/code.

Will you even be able to fly to the region around the crab nebula and not only view the nebula in all its beauty, and be able to see PSR B0531+21 (pulsar).

Will you be able to find an asteroid maybe with strange markings on it? Or a long tunnel leading to something odd/unique inside? etc?

 

[exioce]

"Tens of thousands" of inhabited systems according to that quote from DB!? Guess it's a good thing I put down enough to be able to start in an explorers Cobra on the edge of known space. Wouldn't want to have to travel from Earth. Might take a while!

 

[NeilF]

"Tens of thousands" of inhabited systems according to that quote from DB!? Guess it's a good thing I put down enough to be able to start in an explorers Cobra on the edge of known space. Wouldn't want to have to travel from Earth. Might take a while!

If you're in the woods, and there's 10,000 trees does the tenth one you pass still interest you?

When you get to one with a cave under it, that will probably interest you... When you get to one with some carvings on it, that will probably interest you... When you get to one with a rope leading up somewhere into its branches, that will probably interested you... But all the rest - which are all unique in their own right - probably won't.

I'm not trying to be glass half-empty here, just trying to make a point. That it doesn't matter if there's 1,000 or 1,000,000 systems to explorer. Unless there's interesting features in some of them, after you've seen the 10th variation on the same theme, the novelty will probably start wearing thin.

I'm sure the developers are more than aware of this, and I for one will be overjoyed when we see screen shots, or read information, showing they've taken action to address it.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Don't you guys feel that emergent / dynamic game play is the answer?

Take that new game "Rust" for example. The developers made a relatively simple open world, and gave the players some basic tools. Survival tools, a few tools for building etc.

Pretty soon people were coming up with wildly inventive and enjoyable ways to play the game. Many of those play styles were never even dreamed of by the developers.

This was possible because the developers provide tools; game mechanics, which allowed for emergent game play.

It also means that hand crafted developer content is not required. And that in fact it is the antithesis to what a sandbox game truly is.

The question is then; do you guys feel it is possible to provide certain dynamic tools and game mechanics to enable the players to have emergent experiences during exploration?

 

[Sterlino]

I want to be able to fly to new systems with the potential to see something new or beautiful. I do not count different coloured stars, or planets with variations of atmosphere in this department. While most systems will obviously differ only by things like this, there needs to be special and unique rare features. Some will of course be procedural, but many need to be down to hard crafted content/code.

Will you even be able to fly to the region around the crab nebula and not only view the nebula in all its beauty, and be able to see PSR B0531+21 (pulsar).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_Pulsar

that should be a very very infernal place to visit... no life is possible in there (i think btw nothing is impossible)
Anyway i totally agree with your opinion and more..

...as you see from my signature the exploration is the most important thing for a kind of player like me.
And i would do it also in the maximum extreme conditions and ''dangerous'' places.
Black Holes, supernovae, massive stars systems, strange phenomenas, wormholes, comets, strange nebulas, hidden systems, hidden/strange planets, bizzare asteroids,
... i would like to explore anything.

i know that the engine will probably admit only few of these things but just give me the horse of the supercruise and hyperjump velocity and i will be happy enough.

Experience ? Profit ? i don't care.. i want only 'emotions' in dangerous places.

Elite : dangerous - that name is just perfect for me.

 

[Rollo]

If you're in the woods, and there's 10,000 trees does the tenth one you pass still interest you?

When you get to one with a cave under it, that will probably interest you... When you get to one with some carvings on it, that will probably interest you... When you get to one with a rope leading up somewhere into its branches, that will probably interested you... But all the rest - which are all unique in their own right - probably won't.

I'm not trying to be glass half-empty here, just trying to make a point. That it doesn't matter if there's 1,000 or 1,000,000 systems to explorer. Unless there's interesting features in some of them, after you've seen the 10th variation on the same theme, the novelty will probably start wearing thin.

I'm sure the developers are more than aware of this, and I for one will be overjoyed when we see screen shots, or read information, showing they've taken action to address it.

I have a feeling, a good feeling mind you, that I would have trouble leaving any system I'm in, if they're going to look as good and be as varied as I suspect! I might not stay too long in a system with no planets, that's true, but if we can scan/explore for various things like stellar substance, better jump-points, comets, asteroids and whatnot, well, exploration could be very interesting even in a bland and seemingly empty system. At least I hope so.

Exploration will certainly be a big part in my game, but just exploring inhabited space will also be something I want to do, a lot. Going to the familiar places from the prequels and from the upcoming books.

There'll be plenty to explore!

 

[Memnoch]

Unless there's interesting features in some of them, after you've seen the 10th variation on the same theme, the novelty will probably start wearing thin.

I'm sure the developers are more than aware of this, and I for one will be overjoyed when we see screen shots, or read information, showing they've taken action to address it.

What action would you suggest? Other than pretty scenery it will probably be as you describe, in all its procedural glory.

 

[NeilF]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_Pulsar

that should be a very very infernal place to visit... no life is possible in there (i think btw nothing is impossible)

Most likely, but we'd need to go there and find out

Anyway i totally agree with your opinion and more..

...as you see from my signature the exploration is the most important thing for a kind of player like me.
And i would do it also in the maximum extreme conditions and ''dangerous'' places.
Black Holes, supernovae, massive stars systems, strange phenomenas, wormholes, comets, strange nebulas, hidden systems, hidden/strange planets, bizzare asteroids,
... i would like to explore anything.

i know that the engine will probably admit only few of these things but just give me the horse of the supercruise and hyperjump velocity and i will be happy enough.

Experience ? Profit ? i don't care.. i want only 'emotions' in dangerous places.

Elite : dangerous - that name is just perfect for me.

Well, sounds like we're after the same thing... and I suspect many others want this too.

My fear is "procedural generation" is being bandied around as some super solution to a computer replicating the laws of physics and nature, and in turn offering all the variety, nuances and uniqueness that can be found in the real world... Alas procedural generation is only as clever as the "tools" the programmers gives it. And I suspect real uniqueness (that asteroid with strange markings on it) will only exist in the game by hand crafting.

I think unless there is a lot of time and effort put into very powerful renderings for the procedural engine to use, and a even more importantly a lot of time and effort put into hand crafting certain areas, vistas and specific items/location to visit, the universe may not be as interesting as a lot of us are hoping.

Let's hope those extra special vistas, locations and objects - no matter how rare - are out there to find in ED!

 

[cadmonkey33]

My fear is "procedural generation" is being bandied around as some super solution to a computer replicating the laws of physics and nature, and in turn offering all the variety, nuances and uniqueness that can be found in the real world... Alas procedural generation is only as clever as the "tools" the programmers gives it. And I suspect real uniqueness (that asteroid with strange markings on it) will only exist in the game by hand crafting.

I think unless there is a lot of time and effort put into very powerful renderings for the procedural engine to use, and a even more importantly a lot of time and effort put into hand crafting certain areas, vistas and specific items/location to visit, the universe may not be as interesting as a lot of us are hoping.

I think they may be aware.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVutbSqBI0

 

[popuptoaster]

they are obvioulsy aware of these issues and will be working to do something about it, the main reason we are not getting planetary landings straight awa is because Db wants there to be a reason to land, he said they COULD do it easily enough right now, but what would be the point if there was nothing to see when you got down there?

I think the same will apply to exploring systems, a lot of effort will have gone into making it worth doing.

don't forget there is lore and previous games to call on, just because the main bubble of human activity has only reached a certain point does not mean there wont be lost settlements and stations further out to find.

people have been exploring the galaxy since the first Elite game so there could easily be procedurally generated stations, towns, space arks or whatever out there already.

 

[Gibbonici]

I think unless there is a lot of time and effort put into very powerful renderings for the procedural engine to use, and a even more importantly a lot of time and effort put into hand crafting certain areas, vistas and specific items/location to visit, the universe may not be as interesting as a lot of us are hoping.

Let's hope those extra special vistas, locations and objects - no matter how rare - are out there to find in ED!

I don't know if you've played about with Space Engine, but I'd thoroughly recommend it if you haven't. There are some amazing things to see in it, and it's a procedural simulation of the Milky Way much like ED, only it's designed and written by one guy in Russia in his back bedroom.

Also, DB's TED talk on procedural generation Rules Can Be Beautiful gives a good idea of how much thought he's put into the concept over the years. It gave me a lot of hope for what Frontier could pull off in ED, anyway.


EDIT: Damn you, cadmonkey! Ninjad

 

[NeilF]

I think they may be aware.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEVutbSqBI0

Yes, I remember seeing that some time ago... And it's interesting him talking about adding science to the procedural generation, and maybe that's where we'll get something "interesting."

But I've only ever really heard him talking about planetary generation, but TBH, I'm not very interested in looking at planets from up in orbit. I'm sure they'll look beautiful and varied, but I still suspect after a few dozen, you'll feel a sense of "been there done it".

It's the asteroid with strange markings, or a tunnel going into it I want to find/visit. It's the star with its atmosphere being ripped away by its twin I want so find/visit. It's the moon with geysers shooting water vapour up into its atmosphere I want find/visit. It's the jovian giant with huge lightening storms I want to find/visit

I want to find those generation ships mentioned in the original Elite, that never existed in it.

I'm sure over the next 3-4 months as we approach beta we'll get a better idea of the what the scope of the game is, and how much there really is to discover via exploration.

My only concern has been how little talk there's been of it, and indeed no screen shots either. This is hopefully just cards being played close to chests

 

[Sterlino]

but promises are here:

bizarre asteroids

comets

dangerous places

wierd Nebula (same routines/scripts used for gas atmospheric planets as you see in this concept art)

strange wierd places

and much more...

so the idea of create some incredible places to be explored is scheduled, my hopes are high.

 

[NeilF]

but promises are here:

bizarre asteroids

comets

dangerous places

wierd Nebula (same routines/scripts used for gas atmospheric planets as you see in this concept art)

strange wierd places

and much more...

so the idea of create some incredible places to be explored is scheduled, my hopes are high.

Fingers crossed! But note, all artist impressions surely? Not one in game example?

 

[Sterlino]

Fingers crossed! But note, all artist impressions surely? Not one in game example?

of course art... we are still in alpha 2.0 , don't you remember ? lol

well, no.. jokes apart i know what you mean with that answer.

Comets_: well we have a prospect of a map that should be just in development now (or i hope so).

Nebula: in one of the early dev diary you can see Braben talking about proc gen with behind him an example of
nebula created with the game engine.

i think that some of the pictures are just near to be confirmed then.. concept/art hopes for the rest of them.