Powerplay Balance issues (once again)

[Apos]

good thing is, after one year there will be another president from the alliance according the lore. than we will see, if mahon steps back as he should, or if he will try to stay as a non-legit dictatorial power. i wonder what the council of admirals thinks about someone putting himself so much into the center, as mahon does.

I have my doubts whether FD will remember that we have such a thing in the Alliance's constitution to be honest.

GalNet will probably be more busy with Aisling going out with Patreus' third cousin in law or Arissa painting her hair blue in an attempt to fool the senate into giving her the throne.

 

[goemon]

I have my doubts whether FD will remember that we have such a thing in the Alliance's constitution to be honest.

GalNet will probably be more busy with Aisling going out with Patreus' third cousin in law or Arissa painting her hair blue in an attempt to fool the senate into giving her the throne.

... while alliance supporters, who are not mahon supporters will flip every system along the line alioth - sol - achenar into the alliance...

 

[Apos]

... while alliance supporters, who are not mahon supporters will flip every system along the line alioth - sol - achenar into the alliance...

All in good time.

 

[_Flin_]

... no, really, why to "balance"/"higher" a power bonusses that's ranked on number one? what kind of balancing is that?

Mahon being number 1 is just a snapshot. As soon as ALD has lost some of her loser-systems things will change again.

Balancing is not done against standings, but against mechanics.

Some favoritism towards the Empire is listed in this thread:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=158444

If you look at the list of community goals (community goals = income = powerplay power), you will see 4 / 4 community goals being about the Empire. Drawing players to the Empire.

The thing is that the favoritism is getting on our nerves.
Number of Alliance ships: 0 (Empire: 3).
Number of Alliance powers: 1 (Empire: 4).
Number of Alliance CGs... well, we had 2 around Alioth, 2 around the old worlds, one exploration goal and a bunch of terraforming cgs. Plus 2 player group cgs. That's about as much as every single Empire power.

Every Empire power has better bonusses than every other power.

And you can see it in the participation numbers. Every single of these favoritisms draws players to the powers. The CGs. The ships. The ranks. The bonusses. GalNet Coverage. You could even say: Who are the good looking powers? The Empire powers. All others are ugly, or strange at best (maybe apart from Winters, who looks okayish. EDIT: And apart from Torval, to be fair).

It needs to be pointed out once in a while. And it always continues.

 

[Star-Hunter]

... while alliance supporters, who are not mahon supporters will flip every system along the line alioth - sol - achenar into the alliance...

And now who is the one making assumptions ?

 

[goemon]

It needs to be pointed out once in a while. And it always continues.

sure, i totally see that. but i don't think that this has to be called "balancing powerplay". i anyways not sure, how much "balancing" is a solution in a somehow-sandboxy game.

And now who is the one making assumptions ?

wishfull thinking

 

[JessieColt]

Mahon being number 1 is just a snapshot. As soon as ALD has lost some of her loser-systems things will change again.

Balancing is not done against standings, but against mechanics.

Some favoritism towards the Empire is listed in this thread:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=158444

If you look at the list of community goals (community goals = income = powerplay power), you will see 4 / 4 community goals being about the Empire. Drawing players to the Empire.

The thing is that the favoritism is getting on our nerves.
Number of Alliance ships: 0 (Empire: 3).
Number of Alliance powers: 1 (Empire: 4).
Number of Alliance CGs... well, we had 2 around Alioth, 2 around the old worlds, one exploration goal and a bunch of terraforming cgs. Plus 2 player group cgs. That's about as much as every single Empire power.

Every Empire power has better bonusses than every other power.

And you can see it in the participation numbers. Every single of these favoritisms draws players to the powers. The CGs. The ships. The ranks. The bonusses. GalNet Coverage. You could even say: Who are the good looking powers? The Empire powers. All others are ugly, or strange at best (maybe apart from Winters, who looks okayish. EDIT: And apart from Torval, to be fair).

It needs to be pointed out once in a while. And it always continues.

With regards to everything you have posted, you are pretty much asking FD to throw out all of the established Lore previous to E: Dangerous regarding the Alliance in order to compete in this game on a more "equal" footing to powers have have been around and at war with each other since around 2380 (game time)?

1. The Alliance Navy is comprised of ships from each system that is part of the Alliance. They have not, to date, ever had an organized Navy with their own ships.

2. Alliance Powers is 1 president that is elected. With a council of 6 leaders from each of the strongest individual navies that made up the Alliance.
2a. Are you asking to have the 6 leaders from the Council added to the game as individual Power Play members?

Balance, with regards to the named powers, is done against the game Lore, not the mechanics of this iteration of the Elite universe. This is why the Alliance only has 1 PP player, Mahon, and not 2 like the Federation, or 4 like the Empire.

By asking to have the Alliance elevated to the Lore equality of the Federation or the Empire, you are asking for massive updates to the Elite Lore, not just changes added to this version of the universe.

I am sure that this can, and may even, be done. Devs have posted in the forums that they are looking into the possibility of expanding the Alliance to at least have their own Rank Progression as the Federation and Empire already do.

I, personally, wouldn't hold my breath out for Alliance specific ships any time soon though. Since they would clearly need a dedicated Navy first before they could even begin designing and awarding/making available, their own ships.

 

[_Flin_]

Sorry, Jessie, but thats rubbish and you know it. There are no Lore reasons why there are 1 Alliance power, 2 fed powers and 4 empire powers.

The powers are all made up.

And when you talk about Lore, even in lore terms Mahon gets the short end of the stick. The Alliance is not some force of peace and freedom, but instead being painted as the corporate greedy subduers of freedom in the Old Worlds.

My problem is that almost every design and balance decision, every PR decision, outfitting decision, ship decision, looks decision etc is always pro empire and against Alliance, with feds as with some half motivated moves... Like the dropship.

And ships arent the issue. They are 1 symptom out.of ten for a recurring theme.

 

[Apos]

1. The Alliance Navy is comprised of ships from each system that is part of the Alliance. They have not, to date, ever had an organized Navy with their own ships.

2. Alliance Powers is 1 president that is elected. With a council of 6 leaders from each of the strongest individual navies that made up the Alliance.
2a. Are you asking to have the 6 leaders from the Council added to the game as individual Power Play members?

1. The Alliance, according to the lore you refer to, has the best shipyards in the whole habitable part of the galaxy. It doesn't matter if we have an organised navy, Alioth alone is capable of building their own ship designs. And they have already done in the past. The last Elite game had the Quest ship built from the Alliance.

2. No, just 2 of them. The Prime Minister and the Council. The Countil is a standalone entity in the Alliance's constitution and has full freedom of action. It would make perfect sense for it to be the Alliance's power which has a combat expansion ethos. They wouldn't have to be individually added. I don't see anything here saying that powers are supposed to be run by 1 persona. In fact, Zac's posts have shown quite the contrary, different government structures are very much possible.

 

[JessieColt]

@ _Flin_ & Apos

None of which either of you commented about is outside of the realm of possibility.

However, the game HAS to start somewhere.

FD chose to start with 10 PP Powers. They could have started with 5, or 15, but they didn't. They chose 10.

Starting with 1 Alliance PP, Mahon, still makes sense since the Alliance has 1 elected President. Does this mean that FD doesn't have plans already in the works to add more Alliance PP Players in a future update? Nope. It only means that currently, in the live game, we have 1 Alliance Power.

The Council of Admirals are made up of 6 members. Having 1 PP Faction called the Council would require a figurehead for the 6, just as Mahon is the President. It honestly makes more sense in the end to add more Alliance PP Factions, 1 for each member of the Council.

Again, we the users, have no clue if this is planned for a future update to the PP system, but it doesn't change the fact that it still makes sense that they started with 1 Power, Mahon, for the Alliance.

Just because the Alliance has the best shipyards doesn't mean that there is a current justification for adding in a ship that is exclusive to the Alliance Navy, since there is NO Alliance Navy.

The Federation and Empire ships depend solely on the fact that there is currently both a Federation and Empire Navy.

If and when FD decides to implement an Alliance Navy and Alliance Naval Rank Progression, I am sure we will begin to see dedicated Alliance ships.

 

[Star-Hunter]

With regards to everything you have posted, you are pretty much asking FD to throw out all of the established Lore previous to E: Dangerous regarding the Alliance in order to compete in this game on a more "equal" footing to powers have have been around and at war with each other since around 2380 (game time)?

1. The Alliance Navy is comprised of ships from each system that is part of the Alliance. They have not, to date, ever had an organized Navy with their own ships.

2. Alliance Powers is 1 president that is elected. With a council of 6 leaders from each of the strongest individual navies that made up the Alliance.
2a. Are you asking to have the 6 leaders from the Council added to the game as individual Power Play members?

Balance, with regards to the named powers, is done against the game Lore, not the mechanics of this iteration of the Elite universe. This is why the Alliance only has 1 PP player, Mahon, and not 2 like the Federation, or 4 like the Empire.

By asking to have the Alliance elevated to the Lore equality of the Federation or the Empire, you are asking for massive updates to the Elite Lore, not just changes added to this version of the universe.

I am sure that this can, and may even, be done. Devs have posted in the forums that they are looking into the possibility of expanding the Alliance to at least have their own Rank Progression as the Federation and Empire already do.

I, personally, wouldn't hold my breath out for Alliance specific ships any time soon though. Since they would clearly need a dedicated Navy first before they could even begin designing and awarding/making available, their own ships.

None of these arguments hold any water. Nobody said we want to be able to crush everybody else in the galaxy.
All we want is equal opportunities and equal treatment as players. They dont have to be the same (and i hope they wont) as the other factions, but at least something.

And the lore argument is totaly invalid. Established lore should continually be expanded and extended, thats how storytelling works. Or do you want to replay the same stories again and again.

 

[_Flin_]

A few quotes from
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Elite_Timeline
Regarding Alliance ships

3230 -ArgentAmalgamatedAerodynamics(Inc.)isformedbyMeredith Argent and Mic Turner and based on thenewly-renamed world of Argent's Claim. The company immediately announces its position as "The Official Alliance Shipbuilder." Construction begins on the soon-to-be-famous New Rossythshipyards.

3231 - The AAAI's New Rossyth shipyards are completed. The new facility utilizes state-of-the-arttechnology and immediately begins producing its own ships.

3237 - The Mantis class transport is produced by the AAAI of Alioth

- The Wyvern class light explorer is produced by the AAAI of Alioth.

3245 - The Griffin Carrier is produced by the AAAI of Alioth.

3250 -MicTurner of AAAI fame completes his design of a brandnew type of starship called theQuest class. New Rossyth Shipyards begin laying the groundwork for this newvessel.

3251 -NewRossythrebuildsprototypeClass4MilitaryDriveand mounts it onthe prototype Quest class ship, the Turner's Quest. The Quest class starship is officially announced and becomes the largest privately owned vessel ever produced.

3270 - The new AJN battle cruiser, the Victor class, is unveiled. The first ship of its class, the AJN Hood, is launched.

 

[Star-Hunter]

@ _Flin_ & Apos
....in a ship that is exclusive to the Alliance Navy, since there is NO Alliance Navy.....

Why should a ship be part of a Navy. Its a ship. It can be sold to authorized pilots. There is no need to include a "NAVY" in any shape or form.

There are any number of ways a ship license can be acquired.

 

[_Flin_]

I am not saying we need to get stuff stuff stuff.

Its only that there is a constant favoritism towards one major faction and a constant belittleing of another one.

 

[JessieColt]

None of these arguments hold any water. Nobody said we want to be able to crush everybody else in the galaxy.
All we want is equal opportunities and equal treatment as players. They dont have to be the same (and i hope they wont) as the other factions, but at least something.

And the lore argument is totaly invalid. Established lore should continually be expanded and extended, thats how storytelling works. Or do you want to replay the same stories again and again.

Where in my other replies did I say that the lore should not be updated? No where!

I have said that the Lore of the Alliance is that it does not have a dedicated Navy with Alliance Naval progression and that FD would have to add that to the game.

I didn't say they shouldn't. And I didn't say that they wouldn't. I only said that the Alliance doesn't have a dedicated navy with their own ships and their own Naval Progression.

I also said that the Devs have commented elsewhere on the forums that they ARE looking into Alliance Naval Rank Progression.

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Alliance

"The Alliance does not contain ranks, instead featuring a complex permit scheme that restricts commanders' travel to Alliance systems."

And regarding the question of adding Alliance focused content:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=167367&p=2554106&viewfull=1#post2554106

"Then you get naval rank, which currently includes the Empire and the Federation."

Note the word currently in the quote above. This doesn't mean that nothing is going to change in the future, only that currently the only ones in the game are for Federation and Empire.

"We are looking to give more attention to military ranks in the future, developing a more defined career structure. This should address issues of allegiance, as well as showing some love for the Alliance."

The balance is coming. Not as fast as some users think it should happen, but it is also not being ignored by FD as some users seem to believe.

- - - Updated - - -

Why should a ship be part of a Navy. Its a ship. It can be sold to authorized pilots. There is no need to include a "NAVY" in any shape or form.

There are any number of ways a ship license can be acquired.

Because currently the Federation and Empire specific ships are restricted to the Navies of those powers.

FD could easily make Alliance ships and have them available only on Alioth.

We already know that there are more ships coming. How do we know that the new ships wont include Alliance specific ones?

 

[JessieColt]

I am not saying we need to get stuff stuff stuff.

Its only that there is a constant favoritism towards one major faction and a constant belittleing of another one.

But isn't that exactly what you are asking for though?

Better PP bonuses
Better Modules (everyone is asking for this, not just the Alliance)
Dedicated Alliance only Ships
Alliance Naval Ranks

All of those are "stuff".

I am not saying that asking for them isn't justified, warranted, or needed. I am only saying as a place to start from, FD stuck more to Lore than just game mechanics when it came to some things.

1 Alliance President = 1 PP Faction Player

No Alliance Naval = No Alliance Naval Rank Progression Ships.

From the current Elite Lore standpoint, the Alliance navies are represented by various ships from across the universe and not by dedicated naval ships.

This doesn't mean that things wont change in the future, or that Alliance Faction Specific ships wont be introduced.

I have yet to see any employee of FD "belittle" any of the other factions.

 

[Star-Hunter]

...

I cant decide if you are agreeing with me or not, so just to reiterate.

-The alliance does not need a navy to have faction specific ships.
-I know that FD is planning on some alliance content, just find it strange (to put it mildly) when people insist that change in the current state is not needed.
-Just because Fed. and Emp. have "NAVAL" faction ships, the alliance does not need to.
- Neither does it need naval ranks as faction progression.

 

[John Adams]

I cannot see how anyone can justify the Alliance not having a least one dedicated ship - ideally 3. It's like First Encounters never happened. That's coming from a Torval supporter. The Alliance deserves more attention.

 

[_Flin_]

But isn't that exactly what you are asking for though?

Better PP bonuses
Better Modules (everyone is asking for this, not just the Alliance)
Dedicated Alliance only Ships
Alliance Naval Ranks

All of those are "stuff".

I am not saying that asking for them isn't justified, warranted, or needed. I am only saying as a place to start from, FD stuck more to Lore than just game mechanics when it came to some things.

1 Alliance President = 1 PP Faction Player

No Alliance Naval = No Alliance Naval Rank Progression Ships.

From the current Elite Lore standpoint, the Alliance navies are represented by various ships from across the universe and not by dedicated naval ships.

This doesn't mean that things wont change in the future, or that Alliance Faction Specific ships wont be introduced.

I have yet to see any employee of FD "belittle" any of the other factions.

Well, i dont ask for stuff, i ask for balance. Whether this is achieved by reducing the bonusses for ithers or increasing my own is not relevant for me. It's not that the Alliance has anything relevant. We dont need more. But seeing that we have nothing and others who have more get even mord and more is infuriating.

And i still doubt that you have your Lore correct. The Alliance played a rather prominent role in the last 100 Elite years and there could have been either naval progression or scientific progression.

And it's not just the Alliance. Where is the corporate power in the Federation? Why does the biggest major faction in the Elite World only have two powers?

The thing is that it's not that hard to balance powers. Just give everyone the possobility to kmprovd their earnings by 30% per hour. Problem is that ALD gets up to 480%. Only mediocre passive empire bonusses are Aisling. On the other hand are Mahon, Hudson, Winters that get downright asful passive bonusses.

A good way to balance would be to remove cumulative stacking of bonusses and change it to additive.

 

[fergal]

We would have loved to have a second power, but there was no room left after the Empire got 4 of them apparently.

The Empire had a big, the Emperor is dying plot, and Community Goals before PP with the characters opposing each other (I helped Patreus turn normal slaves into Imperial Slaves)
They needed 40% of the powers because they have an epic struggle for the Imperial Throne.