Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[CMDR Reaper]

I play more and more in Solo. I like the idea of having other people around, but just don't want to get blown out of the sky for no apparent reason. I would feel that it would be waste of my precious gaming time and very annoying.

I do however play in open when exploring, since I doubt that people that I meet out there would blow me out of the sky.

 

[Khelder]

I forgot the "air quotes" - I meant "fix".

As you know I don't think they're broken - but if other people do perhaps they should campaign on specific things that affect the thing in question rather than the mechanism for the whole game.

I think you're missing the point... or, at least, a point.

The differences between the modes mean very little if nobody is competing against anybody else. PvP combat is a very small example - it might be a little unfair that someone grinds up to an Anaconda in Solo and then chooses to switch over and stomp on me in Open. But CG and PP are examples of features whereby FD have intentionally pushed players together. It's not "blaze your own trail", it's "join this event" or "support this faction." I am all for that. But as soon as you go down that path, it's going to exacerbate the perceived differences between people supporting (or resisting) a particular goal in different ways.

You'll have people who will complain that one mode is having an easier time of it than others. Some will complain that they can't effectively resist a goal because (in part) people are able to avoid them by going to a different mode. You'll have those who boast about the fact that they can just avoid people trying to resist them (you know, the ones offering emergent content) by just swapping modes - neener neener. You'll have people who call that out as almost an exploit. Then you'll have those who say "Well I can do it so it's all good." There are those that will say the people who are offering emergent content are just griefers and shouldn't be playing the game. They will come back and say "It's Open - didn't you read the warning on the box?!" The response comes back "Well maybe there shouldn't be an Open." And it all ends up in this thread.

This is all a part of that fundamental game mechanic you hold so dear - modes. I don't know if there is a solution to it. I think FD (and probably most of us) want the best of both worlds.

Robert mentioned another MMO that has a similar concept of different modes (essentially the same as ED) affecting the same BGS. I haven't played it and I couldn't really find a lot of information about it so I don't know how it is working out for them. The example they gave about affecting the same BGS was that if you were playing Solo you might see things move around in someone's house even though they aren't there. That's fine. But it's hardly being part of an organised campaign of cooperation.

I don't expect that Frontier consider them broken either - they implemented them in the first place....

Maybe they don't. Maybe once FD have implemented something it is set in stone. Maybe no element of this game has been tweaked or nerfed.

 

[ianw]

I play more and more in Solo. I like the idea of having other people around, but just don't want to get blown out of the sky for no apparent reason. I would feel that it would be waste of my precious gaming time and very annoying.

I do however play in open when exploring, since I doubt that people that I meet out there would blow me out of the sky.

My experience of open - where I am all the time trading mostly - is that most people are fine. It helps knowing how to get out of trouble - either avoid interdictions or high wake to escape. So if you like seeing people around it is possible.

On your second point I'd be wary of other people when exploring - some people have gone to extraordinary lengths to ruin anexplorer's day.

 

[Daffan]

Wow.. rarely do I see a written temper tantrum, thank you for the opportunity. You seem to think PVP is essential to the game, and because others don't this is how you reply?

I'm starting to think you do not know what a sandbox game is, nowhere in a sandbox game is PVP a requirement. Some have PVP some don't. And you use "meta-gaming", but again you are using words out of context. In truth if you have used any website to look for profitable trade routes, help build your ship, to find where a ship component is located, or looked for a route to a system than you are technically meta gaming. Playing a game without PVP is NOT in anyway metagaming. You think anyone not playing PVP is playing without risk, yet that is your opinion and has been proven false time and time again.

Your entire rant above is nothing more than that .. a rant..without merit or substance lambasting PVE just because you don't like it. PVP is a part of the game, be it CQC, in open, or even in private groups. The actions of some abusing the PVP system may be seen as Metagaming possibly.. so maybe your rant though directed at those of us who do not engage in PVP is more properly directed back at those who don't PVP, but instead abuse the PVP system to grief/gank.

I never said there was pvp only

I said there was cooperative too. You could enter a CZ/NAV/RES in Open and find other players from your faction and group with them. You could join those people and go into enemy faction space and do stuff that is more relevant that undermining NPC's or grinding NPC's. There might be opposing wings or not, or there might be a lone enemy pilot - who knows. It's a lot more engaging then FARMING clueless AI over and over.

I don't hate PVE. I find risk/reward and challenging games more fun.

You really don't get it do you?

if you make something super easy and super fast. Nobody is going to play the other options. That's where meta-gaming and human psychology came in (Path of Least Resistance)

Secondly, meta-gaming has nothign to do with pvp. It's simply put, a way to play the game the simplest and most efficient and not really intended. I doubt Frontier intended that Undermining in solo was where everyone was going to gravitate to.

Lastly, my rant was about how the player interaction and everything else is completely null and void in this game. Than again I guess you never really played a online sandbox before, where it actually felt immersive and real with other players and stuff actually felt meaningful. PowerPlay should feel important if you join a faction, you want to fight and defend it, killing NPC's over and over with no risk/reward makes it dull.

Addenum: I already said the crime system in this game needs an overhaul, so that griefing/ganking is reduced to almost none. If you made murder and killing actually bad and could only dock in anarchy, could be attaceked by anyone anywhere etc. There would be way less meaningless PVP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The OP/Solo issue is a part of something bigger. In one sentence: almost a year after release, the ED is still background simulation but not a game. Something like a theatre scene without actors and some mouses passing through it. From the equal NPC/Player fines, through the Power Play, to the Community goals, it seems that FDevs tell us: “Look people, we are creating the VR that will exist and function with or without you. But unless they didn’t found a way to receive their real salaries from the NPCs, they should consider more the players wishes than the background simulation balance.

Is this so difficult to apply PvP/PK system? I think no, but obviously nobody cares. There is no difference if someone kills a player or NPC. The fine is 6000 cr. For FDevs both NPCs and players have the same value - 6000 cr.

About PP – they are still trying to attract the players to participate in it… In other words: to make human beings to lose their time for the honor, glory and prosperity of an NPC… Seriously?

And in 1.4, instead of player controlled fractions, they gave us the CQC. “Come on kids, stop willing for power, it is reserved for NPCs, go play with puppets! Don’t bother us; we have a job to do!”

In order to grow up from background simulation to the game, this background simulation should be ruled from the players. This is the point and implementing the PvP/PK system is part of it.

From a slightly different perspective, Frontier would seem to be telling us that we can each affect the galaxy, just as much as any other player, by a realistic amount - one person trying to affect even one station's economy won't achieve much.

The game is not about players owning and controlling systems / stations / etc. - that's beyond what a player can achieve.

What do you mean by a PvP/PK system?

Again, the players in the game are massively outnumbered by the NPCs in the game - and the galaxy is truly enormous. If the only changes to the background simulation were made by players then we might well have an even more static galaxy than we have already....

 

[Robert Maynard]

Maybe they don't. Maybe once FD have implemented something it is set in stone. Maybe no element of this game has been tweaked or nerfed.

In the context of Frontier stating that all game modes are equal and valid and their obvious commitment to the single shared galaxy state that every player experiences and affects, I don't expect that fundamental changes are likely with regard to which modes can affect Community Goals or Powerplay.

 

[ianw]

I think you're missing the point... or, at least, a point.

The differences between the modes mean very little if nobody is competing against anybody else. PvP combat is a very small example - it might be a little unfair that someone grinds up to an Anaconda in Solo and then chooses to switch over and stomp on me in Open. But CG and PP are examples of features whereby FD have intentionally pushed players together. It's not "blaze your own trail", it's "join this event" or "support this faction." I am all for that. But as soon as you go down that path, it's going to exacerbate the perceived differences between people supporting (or resisting) a particular goal in different ways.

See I don't think they have pushed people together - they have just put it out there as an option like everything else.

Sandro (dev) himself said PP is entirely optional and they see it as a way for people to play the background SIM.

 

[Khelder]

See I don't think they have pushed people together - they have just put it out there as an option like everything else.

Sandro (dev) himself said PP is entirely optional and they see it as a way for people to play the background SIM.

Yes, PP is entirely optional. And, yes, it is a way to play the BGS. But...

But for me the best reward is how Powerplay changes combat. The Pilots Federation waives all penalties for engaging invaders in combat during times of war, so you'll have license to attack anyone from a rival power in your own territory without incurring a bounty. We're giving players a reason to engage in PVP against supporters of other factions, and a chance to feel like part of a team even if you prefer to play alone.

(bold mine)

I think the idea was more that you're supposed to feel like you are a part of something... part of a team.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yes, PP is entirely optional. And, yes, it is a way to play the BGS. But...


(bold mine)

I think the idea was more that you're supposed to feel like you are a part of something... part of a team.

Being given a reason to PvP as part of a team is not the same as each player being told to join a team with the express intent to PvP.

 

[ianw]

Yes, PP is entirely optional. And, yes, it is a way to play the BGS. But...


(bold mine)

I think the idea was more that you're supposed to feel like you are a part of something... part of a team.

You forgot to bold the ...even if you prefer to play alone.

Sounds like solo mode to me..

 

[Khelder]

Being given a reason to PvP as part of a team is not the same as each player being told to join a team with the express intent to PvP.

I don't see your point.

I doubt too many people who don't like PvP would have started PvP purely because of PP. I reckon a lot of people who enjoy PvP saw it as a free license to go on a shooting spree. I wonder how many people who pledged to a power because they liked the toys on offer thinking, "I'll just trade", without realising they were sticking a "Kill me" sign on their backs?

That's not even my main point. The emphasis on the (yes, optional) content of PP was to become part of a team. To work towards the goals of your team - while opposing teams were simultaneously working against you. My suggestion is that by bringing a more competitive element into the mix, they have brought certain "issues" with an "everyone is equal" system to light. Therefore, I am not overly surprised that people would complain about it.

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You forgot to bold the ...even if you prefer to play alone.

Sounds like solo mode to me..

Because that is intentionally not what I was highlighting. Even if you play PP in Solo, you are still playing as part of your PP team.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't see your point.

I doubt too many people who don't like PvP would have started PvP purely because of PP. I reckon a lot of people who enjoy PvP saw it as a free license to go on a shooting spree. I wonder how many people who pledged to a power because they liked the toys on offer thinking, "I'll just trade", without realising they were sticking a "Kill me" sign on their backs?

That's not even my main point. The emphasis on the (yes, optional) content of PP was to become part of a team. To work towards the goals of your team - while opposing teams were simultaneously working against you. My suggestion is that by bringing a more competitive element into the mix, they have brought certain "issues" with an "everyone is equal" system to light. Therefore, I am not overly surprised that people would complain about it.

- - - Updated - - -



Because that is intentionally not what I was highlighting. Even if you play PP in Solo, you are still playing as part of your PP team.

The point is, as you have alluded to, that some players now have a(nother) reason to go with their desire for PvP - Powerplay offers players the choice to participate and then the choice to PvP as part of that (but with no distinct rewards for PvP).

Given the 24/7 nature of the game, as well as instancing in Open and Private Groups, the ping-time related matchmaking, with the addition of a new platform to the mix, there's no guarantee that any player would be able to oppose any other player even if they were in the same mode. While Powerplay may encourage some players to PvP because they want to it equally offers players with no desire to PvP rewards for working on behalf of their chosen Power.

 

[Roybe]

It is amazing how many people don't get this and think that loss to someone is "funny" and quipped that it is "Just a game."

However, everyone has a choice not to risk that time by playing where no PK can hurt you...so no problem, right? Working as designed and intended, right?

 

[Robert Maynard]

However, everyone has a choice not to risk that time by playing where no PK can hurt you...so no problem, right? Working as designed and intended, right?

Working as delivered - certainly. Working as designed and intended? Debatable. In the design (DDF Criminality - Final Proposal) there is the Pilot's Federation Bounty proposal that would allow players to levy bounties on those who have destroyed them - sadly not implemented.

The simple fact is that the only mode in which players can encounter random players is Open. Unsurprisingly this is the same mode in which PKers ply their trade as they know that players of all types are drawn to the mode due to the opportunities to meet random players.

Little wonder that there have been calls for a PvE equivalent of Open mode.

 

[Roybe]

Nobody would call the two cities you mentioned with that quote as "high security" areas. Leesti* is a high security system according to the galaxy map. Going into an anarchy system should be dangerous, going into a high security system should be very, very secure.

In YOUR game this might be true...but FDev, apparently disagrees. Until FDev changes this...it is all we have. Currently, it does not appear they are even working on this issue. So, now, what do we do? Avoid the area...or play in Private to avoid the players. Sounds like the only plan available...which is exactly the plan that FDev have devised for players to avoid other players...for any reason. Working as intended!

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

In YOUR game this might be true...but FDev, apparently disagrees. Until FDev changes this...it is all we have. …

I guess I didn't put enough "in my opinion" and "I think" into my posting. Yes, I think it would make the game better if that security info in the galaxy map had some meaning to it. I can only speculate if FD disagrees or if the are working on this issue. In my opinion it is an issue that makes the game less enjoyable for me and I think for some other players too.

As you wrote, until FD changes this - that's why I wrote what I think would make the game better. Just in case that FD reads this and just for the tiny little almost not existent possibility of a chance of FD changing it.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

There is a difference between high security and low security systems... its (to my mind) just not different enough.

 

[Roybe]

I guess I didn't put enough "in my opinion" and "I think" into my posting. Yes, I think it would make the game better if that security info in the galaxy map had some meaning to it. I can only speculate if FD disagrees or if the are working on this issue. In my opinion it is an issue that makes the game less enjoyable for me and I think for some other players too.

As you wrote, until FD changes this - that's why I wrote what I think would make the game better. Just in case that FD reads this and just for the tiny little almost not existent possibility of a chance of FD changing it.

You have to remember, in this game, crime is desired by the devs...and the game is being designed to allow crime to occur without being to onerous on the attacker. The levels that are considered healthy by the devs will not align with all players...and they understand this and offer other places that will not have the same amount of crime. I suggest people use those avenues and enjoy themselves.

If the cost is to high to the attacked..then we all know how to avoid these costs. I am sure that Open has what the devs would consider a 'healthy' population...in spite of the complaints to the contrary...otherwise there would be changes to strengthen or weaken the justice system to increase or decrease the Open population. Since the other modes are all equal in their eyes...again this is probably not a major concern for them either. The only concern they would have is if people just stopped playing the game. But this still will not change their two basic ideas...that crime is expected to happen and that the modes are valid...

 

[Marcus Tullius]

From any kind of business perspective the customer is always right. If they announced ED as a game, they should give us a game, not an explorable simulation of the Milky Way.

“The game is not about players owning andcontrolling systems / stations / etc. - that's beyond what a player can achieve.” – but the game is about the players. If the players want something… the customer is always right

About the size of the ED galaxy and the player influence: Almost all the people cannot affect the real world and they feel themselves quite insignificant. That’s why they are playing games – to be somebody in the game. Let’s not forget, that this is a game and everything is allowed.

PvP/PK system is used in most MMORPG games. It makes a difference between fight and killing. For example: if one player hits the other and he returns fire, they can fight to death without penalty. If the second player doesn’t return fire, when he dies, the first one becomes “PlayerKiller”, he highlights in red on radar screens to all without necessity to be scanned. He becomes an open target for hunting until he dies or pays the fine in ananarchy station. The fine could be some kind of “Pilot Federation Fine” valid all around the galaxy, just like ranks. Such system will prevent unnecessary killings and will pull back a lot of players in Open.

 

[Roybe]

There is a difference between high security and low security systems... its (to my mind) just not different enough.

Although I agree with this line of reasoning...I have to accept that the devs probably think otherwise. It would be very nice to not have to worry about getting my face shot off in Lugh every time I fly in Open. It is a high sec system. However, this is not the case...and has never been the case. We have a police presence...but the police are actually a dirty lot..and can be found cavorting with all sorts of criminals...and it seems our system is not alone in this problem...every system I have flown through, I have seen similar AI behavior...and those missions these NPC's offer us to fly...upstanding Pilots that we are...murder, smuggling, mayhem...all of it designed to undermine and damage other places!

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From any kind of business perspective the customer is always right. If they announced ED as a game, they should give us a game, not an explorable simulation of the Milky Way.

“The game is not about players owning andcontrolling systems / stations / etc. - that's beyond what a player can achieve.” – but the game is about the players. If the players want something… the customer is always right

About the size of the ED galaxy and the player influence: Almost all the people cannot affect the real world and they feel themselves quite insignificant. That’s why they are playing games – to be somebody in the game. Let’s not forget, that this is a game and everything is allowed.

PvP/PK system is used in most MMORPG games. It makes a difference between fight and killing. For example: if one player hits the other and he returns fire, they can fight to death without penalty. If the second player doesn’t return fire, when he dies, the first one becomes “PlayerKiller”, he highlights in red on radar screens to all without necessity to be scanned. He becomes an open target for hunting until he dies or pays the fine in ananarchy station. The fine could be some kind of “Pilot Federation Fine” valid all around the galaxy, just like ranks. Such system will prevent unnecessary killings and will pull back a lot of players in Open.

No business thinks this. Never did. If they claimed this...they were just trying to get people to shut up and go away.