Is this a rip off? Or is this Frontier first encounters all over again?

Squicker

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Marc Alexander said:
wowsers... this thread still going is it...

..and I do recognise the irony as I've just extended it to post 401..
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It's not a patch on, "what rig do I get?". Those guys must have discussed every possible permutation of computer; past, present and future.
 

sporadic_kit

S
-o- said:
You book a flight and know its published estimated flight time is 12 hours. You board the flight and 12 hours in, you notice you haven't landed. Other passengers also notice this and the cabin crew inform the captain that economy class are getting anxious and angry. The Captain informs the crew member that its all under control and he will shortly make an announcement to the passengers explaining the situation. A few moments later he activates the PA system and says .. 'This is the captain speaking. We will be landing, when we ready to land."


At such times its a good idea to step back and get an objective perspective on the matter. Here is Kickstarter's own advice to any project running under their scheme ;


What do I do if I miss my Estimated Delivery Date?

The Estimated Delivery Date is intended to set expectations for backers on when they will receive rewards. Setbacks are common to any project, and creative ones especially. When the unforeseen occurs, creators are expected to post a project update explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is part of the Kickstarter experience.

Creators who are honest and transparent will find backers to be far more forgiving. We’ve all felt the urge to avoid things when we feel bad about them, but leaving backers in the dark makes them assume the worst. It not only reflects badly on the project, it’s disrespectful to the support that community has given and to other Kickstarter creators. Regular communication is a must.

So the question is that as estimatated delivery dates have already been missed, have the backers involved in these slips been left in the darK?

Being left in the dark means not being informed directly via email, or via the project's main page (elite.frontier.co.uk), that there has been a delay and the reasons for that delay. It does not include some forum comment made by a FD dev or manager. Respectfully, these discussion forums should not be used to communicate significant information to backers because there is no assurance that the information will be seen by a backer. The obvious method is via email, the same method used to deliver other information such as the backer news letters. There seems to be no means for FD to deliver messages to specific backers, or groups of backers, via their "Backer's Login" which exists on their main page.

As of today, we know that over 3,000 backers who pledged at or above the "£100 - Participate in the first round private beta test", have already missed their estimated delivery dates for the 1st round Beta.

By the end of Feburary, another 5,000 backers who pledged at or above the "£50 - Participate in the second round private beta test", but below the £100 level, will also miss their estimated delivery dates.

Thus based on Kickstarter's own objective opinion, if these 3,000 backers (and soon to become 8,000 backers) did not receive a project update explaining the delay, it reflects badly on the project and is disrespectful to the backers.

This 'project update' concerning the missed estimates does not take alot of effort, and costs next to nothing, except perhaps some lost pride. The value of that lost pride needs to be assessed next to the value of the lost backer respect. Perhaps FD are hoping that in time, everything will be forgotton once the backers get their hands on the gamma. Till then, if this silence continues, theres bound to be some passenger triggered tuburlance on this long flight.

I think if FD made regular official announcements about project timeframes, it would help them more than harm them. Not much to ask for, but it would go a long way in helping us backers understand the delays and their reasons, and thus allow us to be more forgiving.
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Very well said.
 

sporadic_kit

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jedt said:
no consensus.... of course not.

there are two groups here (possibly more) one that, having made its £35 'investment', feels the need for continual updates on all aspects of progress. the other group (including me, and it was a lot more than £35) who are saying 'let me know when something interesting happens'

there is no bridge there that i can see....

@op given that you had such a bad experience all those years ago why did you back this project?

hey, if a dog bites me i sure as **** ain't going to try and stroke it again.
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Because Elite is a great game and im sure the next release will be also be awesome.
 

jedt

J
cadmonkey33 said:
dead-horse.gif
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^^this +1. would be a lot more but......
 

sporadic_kit

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Pyros said:
And I don't need to be spammed about the game development :p - my mail has enough mails already (yes WFTO, I'm looking at you).

Still think that Josh (from Limit Theory) approach is the best, although his daily dev post is a bit over the top. And the communication style and frequency only really works because it is mostly one person effort.
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One email every two weeks is not spam.
 

sporadic_kit

S
Squicker said:
Agreed: I support more comms but I don't think email is right, backers should come to the PBF to get it. No one wants more spam and if we're interested enough to be demanding more comms, we are surely interested enough to bother to get to the PBF. We can't inflict our desire upon those that are actually happy with the status quo.

I am thinking that having taken accountability to donate some money, we should take accountability for tracking what's being done with it!
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I disagree with this. I check my emails frequently and I do not check this forum frequently. I'm not going to play this game until its 100% ready. Me and i'm sure many other people are in the same boat. If you don't want emails, opt out. Or even if you do want mails, opt in.

ZeeWolf said:
so you think that backing a small amount on a Kickstarter proposition gives you the same rights regarding expectation and deadlines as a publisher or investor may expect?

no
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Clearly some people on this forum are just gamers who play games when their not at school. Some are professional people.

I am a backer of this project (a stakeholder) and therefore deserve frequent updates. You may call these bi weekly, twice monthly, or you could even have a long old discussion about the terminology used to describe such methods of communication.

Bottom line is that 75% of the posts in this thread are (such as the one I just quoted). The rest of them, frontier need to pay serious attention to.
 

Riandor

Riandor
sporadic_kit said:
Clearly some people on this forum are just gamers who play games when their not at school. Some are professional people.

I am a backer of this project (a stakeholder) and therefore deserve frequent updates. You may call these bi weekly, twice monthly, or you could even have a long old discussion about the terminology used to describe such methods of communication.

Bottom line is that 75% of the posts in this thread are (such as the one I just quoted). The rest of them, frontier need to pay serious attention to.
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They're...

Just saying.
;)
 

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror
sporadic_kit said:
Clearly some people on this forum are just gamers who play games when their not at school. Some are professional people.

I am a backer of this project (a stakeholder) and therefore deserve frequent updates. You may call these bi weekly, twice monthly, or you could even have a long old discussion about the terminology used to describe such methods of communication.

Bottom line is that 75% of the posts in this thread are (such as the one I just quoted). The rest of them, frontier need to pay serious attention to.
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I'll start this by saying, "you have a point, but..."

There's a huge difference between a reasoned request for better communication and implying that we're being scammed. That's what you did. You also dredged up a particularly contentious episode in the history of both Elite and Frontier Developments. Whatever you think the justification for that was, it was bound to switch this from a rational discussion into a flaming row instantly.

Most of the "" responses, as you call them, are reacting to the tone of your argument, which is confrontational to say the least. None of this means that you don't have a point, but you really could have approached this better, and calling our responses "" implies that you don't really understand your part in all of this.
 

Perseus

Perseus
sporadic_kit said:
Bottom line is that 75% of the posts in this thread are (such as the one I just quoted). The rest of them, frontier need to pay serious attention to.
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You seem to have an arbitrary attitude. I have to wonder why. I want meaningful updates, not obligatory progress reports.
What will you do if FD don't listen to the 25%? Just keep posting/smearing your version of Brown Sauce?
 

Matt168

M
Several people say they don't want to be spammed with meaningless updates. The main body of people asking for more information are only asking at most for a fortnightly update, easily ignored.

The only anxiety I would have is that the new dates would be considered as the new deadline for delivery of a final game. I don't know if that would cause more trouble than it dispelled.
 

Pyros

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sporadic_kit said:
I disagree with this. I check my emails frequently and I do not check this forum frequently. I'm not going to play this game until its 100% ready. Me and i'm sure many other people are in the same boat. If you don't want emails, opt out. Or even if you do want mails, opt in.
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Believe me, mails are not good for organized status reports or any other reference information. They are good for announcements, but those are irregular by nature on a development project. If I want to have a clearer view on the evolution of a project on demand, a dev blog (as a forum thread can be) is a way better tool than mails scattered throughout a project execution period (months to years).

Along with spreadsheets, mail is probably the most misused information technology ever.

And for satisfying everyone, FD could activate a subscribe this thread with automatic mail alerts to everyone that signs up :)

Anyway, it is FD call ;)
 
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fireFly1000

F
Blah, blah, blah, blaaaah... bla.

Just stopped to give you my opinion on the matter.:D
Carry on! I'll be back when this thread reaches 100 pages. :p
 

Toumal

Toumal
Yes you can.

I want to see someone post a thread titled "Is this a rip off? Or is this Privateer 2 all over again?" in the SC forums and see how long it survives.

Can we close this thread, now that the differences in perception have been sufficiently elaborated upon?
 

deusx_ophc

deusx_ophc
toumal said:
yes you can.

I want to see someone post a thread titled "is this a rip off? Or is this privateer 2 all over again?" in the sc forums and see how long it survives.

Can we close this thread, now that the differences in perception have been sufficiently elaborated upon?
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no it must go on or else... :D
 
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