General / Off-Topic World refugee crisis
- Thread starter Surfinjo
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This is an interesting German documentary (English subs) contrasting their refugee, immigration and integration policies (and some consequences thereof) with Canada's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=32&v=KVWAIKoatWM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=32&v=KVWAIKoatWM
EU-countries governments need to help fighting terrorists in middle east under Putin command. You've already been doing this under american presidents and look where it got you - 20 years of genocide of middle east nations.
As much as it will pain the European ruling classes, I think you're essentially right.
Though my instincts say to walk away. I doubt any intervention can ever help.
America is the problem here simply because their priority isn't the ME or Europe, or refugees. Their priority is Israel and the numbers of voters in the US who will vote against anyone who doesn't agree with that.
It would be interesting to see the Russian peoples perspective of all of this. The UK perspective is that Putin is backing Assad all the way and so fighting against the US backed rebels. My personal perspective is that Putin is just looking after Russian interests, e.g. the russian military base they have in Syria.
As to the 'genocide of the middle east'? All I can say is, some one is supplying all of those AK47s etc, that groups like ISIS are fighting with.
I see it like this: US wanted control over cheap oil - so after USSR collapse they started to overthrow middle east governments by instigating "revolutions", presenting fake evidence of chemical weapons (Iraq) and many other stories (some real ones too) about leaders of Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Iran. Basically their goal isn't in overthrowing governments - their goal is to create chaos. So they fund and give weapons and training to various terrorist organizations in exchange for oil. When there is chaos - there is no control and no need for taxes, so they can use dirt cheap labor force and ignore local taxes completely. That is why this chaos is lasting for so long - because it's very profitable. That is the reason why US, GB, France, Germany, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey today asked Russia to stop bombing of terrorists (they present it as if we might be harming "good terrorists" who fight Hafiz Asad
)As for AKs - beside the fact that every major country is making them, there is that ridiculous amounts of various soviet weapons and ammunition were sold (mostly illegally) or stolen from by every old soviet republic (which are now form eastern europe countries). And lately I mostly see news about ISIS taking over US military base and taking humvees, tanks and other things.
A few days ago there were news about huge Pentagon budget for training anti-Asad militia and then as soon as those "militants" got to middle east they joined ISIS and Al-Nusra terrorist groups with all the weapons and things - how stupid one might be to think that them joining ISIS was not planned from the beginning. Nobody point fingers officially, but this fact shows exactly how america is supporting ISIS. It's just that someone caught pentagon red handed and this stupid explanation is their attempt to make a poker face.
With the Russia and the Westerners in Syria and with the Iran and the Saudi Arabia, some newspapers in France, asks if we do not start the World War III, now
I see it like this: US wanted control over cheap oil - so after USSR collapse they started to overthrow middle east governments by instigating "revolutions", presenting fake evidence of chemical weapons (Iraq) and many other stories (some real ones too) about leaders of Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Iran. Basically their goal isn't in overthrowing governments - their goal is to create chaos. So they fund and give weapons and training to various terrorist organizations in exchange for oil. When there is chaos - there is no control and no need for taxes, so they can use dirt cheap labor force and ignore local taxes completely. That is why this chaos is lasting for so long - because it's very profitable. That is the reason why US, GB, France, Germany, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey today asked Russia to stop bombing of terrorists (they present it as if we might be harming "good terrorists" who fight Hafiz Asad
As for AKs - beside the fact that every major country is making them, there is that ridiculous amounts of various soviet weapons and ammunition were sold (mostly illegally) or stolen from by every old soviet republic (which are now form eastern europe countries). And lately I mostly see news about ISIS taking over US military base and taking humvees, tanks and other things.
A few days ago there were news about huge Pentagon budget for training anti-Asad militia and then as soon as those "militants" got to middle east they joined ISIS and Al-Nusra terrorist groups with all the weapons and things - how stupid one might be to think that them joining ISIS was not planned from the beginning. Nobody point fingers officially, but this fact shows exactly how america is supporting ISIS. It's just that someone caught pentagon red handed and this stupid explanation is their attempt to make a poker face.
Apply Hanlons Razor "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".
Malice would indicate a new world order and a vast conspiracy by the advanced military industrial nations to keep the middle east destabilized for profit. I don't think our leaders could do it, they are too thick lazy and incompetent. Falsifying their expenses is about the limit of their ability to plot.
Stupidity would indicate dumb politicians trying to solve a delicate multifaceted problem in a slipshod rushed way without learning about the potential dangers of any of the following :
regional history
tribal affiliations
religious splits
past experience of armies invading that country
ongoing feuds
announcing in advance an enemy list (G W Bush axis of evil speech)
badly researched intelligence (sometimes rewritten for political reasons)
offering knee jerk support for factions that later prove to be bad (surprising no-one with any knowledge of the situation)
losing credibility by initially supporting one side then switching to the other
criticizing a country for doing exactly what you have done
lying to your own populace to drum up support for a war (and getting caught)
not getting a genuine UN mandate
arming people of uncertain loyalty
Whilst chancers in business try to make money from all sides, not because they control the situation but because they are carrion feeders.
Are you saying that politics in any country in not driven by businesses? It even legalized in US when politicians receive money from businesses for their election campaigns - your logic is inverted.
First find money interest - then use politics (including war) to gain it.
Money is a massive issue there are greedy and stupid people at every level of society, personally I think politicians should be paid so well they don't get tempted (although I'd want them to work hard for it).
I just don't think greedy stupid people have that much deliberate influence in the world. Accidental influence and unforeseen consequences through bad planning is something I believe in.
I thought same way when I was young and naive. Since then I saw few things with my own eyes that changed my opinion. That is exactly how our world lives - by will of stupid greedy psychopaths. And people can never get enough
There's a good chance to meet a decent person among non-politicians though
I can accept your postulate to a large extent.
Though the continuing stupidity would seem to suggest that there is an overall callous management.
I hate to reference something from fiction but there was an episode of ST Voyager, which seems to be reminiscent here. One of the few of that series, indeed any of the revived series which had an intelligent script
Some fellow used a time machine to alter current reality. Unfortunately, it had the effect of altering things which he didn't intend. not least the loss of his family. So he repeatedly went back and forward trying to create a current reality that he could accept. But of course, he never quite succeeded.
That, on the basis of your postulate, seem to indicate what is happening here.
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Unforeseen consequences is the biggest problem humanity face (I think) this is from the washing post yesterday :
"The United States, by contrast, is closely allied with the Iraqi government in its fight against militant Sunnis in that country. But it finds itself fighting on the same side of these militant Sunnis across the border in Syria as they battle the Assad regime."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...163ec4-6875-11e5-9ef3-fde182507eac_story.html
Not a particularly clear message to send to the world, allies or enemies. And in strategic terms an absolutely unwinnable situation, if the US gain ground against these militants they cross the border into Syria where the US will help them. It's sheer stupidity to treat a faction as both your enemy and your friend at the same time.
The US is in this position because it knee jerked into opposition of Assad (who was supported by the west prior to the current civil war, then betrayed at it's start because the west thought he would lose quickly and wanted to be on friendly terms with the winner) and with hindsight the US realize the people they support in Syria are hard line Islamic militants (who the west have been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for over a decade).
Had the west thought/learned about the situation, listened to their advisers or just not interfered until the situation became clear they would have supported Assad, now they are locked into opposing him because they can't lose face and admit a stupid mistake (even though they've changed sides once already, but western media don't mention past support for Assad). Syria needs help from the global community, who do we side with Assad who the West have declared to be an enemy or ISIS/ISIL who the West have declared to be an enemy.
It now looks like the west are going to start supporting Assad again (or at least stop directly opposing him) because of Russia's clear message.
The unforeseen consequence of this (my worst case prediction for the future) :
Russia compete with the US to be the "worlds policeman", proxy wars, new cold war worsens.
The west's repeated changing side's and unfocused strategy makes them look like they will swap sides at the drop of a hat. Other nations trust them less and their ability to form alliances is weakened, not the best way to a new cold war.
[video=youtube;wB2WB_d7S58]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2WB_d7S58[/video] [video=youtube;esLP40YQwU4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esLP40YQwU4[/video]
I can't accept these claims of allegiance. All that seems clear is that the policy is to ensure continuing chaos.
America doesn't care two jots frankly. The only refugees it takes are carefully selected anyway.
America's only priority as far as I can see is appeasing the huge numbers of voters who think Israel is some sort of god blessed promise land and to defend it is to do god's work.
The only other are of the ME which has remains relatively stable is Saudi Arabia where much of US oil comes from.
I can't accept these claims of allegiance. All that seems clear is that the policy is to ensure continuing chaos.
America doesn't care two jots frankly. The only refugees it takes are carefully selected anyway.
America's only priority as far as I can see is appeasing the huge numbers of voters who think Israel is some sort of god blessed promise land and to defend it is to do god's work.
The only other are of the ME which has remains relatively stable is Saudi Arabia where much of US oil comes from.
As soon as Russia launched airstrikes in support of Assad the west immediately claim civilian casualties criticize Russian dumb bomb technology, and claim that its somehow helping IS (who are one of the organizations the Russians are bombing).
One day later the US bomb a hospital in Afghanistan (with a "smart" US bomb) but this time it's "collateral damage" and the unavoidable consequence of war.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34432471
Unforeseen consequence the US looks hypocritical, weak and dishonest.
I found it delicious : The Russia said Saturday that its air strikes in Syria, started to sown the "panic" among the Islamic State Group, by forcing 600 of its members to abandon their positions. "We have succeeded to significantly reduce the military potential of terrorists [...]. The panic and desertion have started in their ranks" says the General Andrei Kartapolov. According to him, "approximately 600 activists of the Islamic State Group abandoned their positions and try to run away towards the Europe ".
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Update.
The US were informed in advance of the hospitals location by MSF, and they informed the US they were bombing a hospital during the attack which continued for another 30-45 minutes (depending on source).
The death toll of MSF staff has risen.
http://news.yahoo.com/death-toll-jumps-nine-kunduz-hospital-bombing-msf-093606654.html
Geneva convention article 4
Under this Convention, civilians are afforded the protections from inhumane treatment and attack afforded in the first Convention to sick and wounded soldiers. Furthermore, additional regulations regarding the treatment of civilians were introduced. Specifically, it prohibits attacks on civilian hospitals, medical transports, etc. It also specifies the right of internees, and those who commit acts of sabotage. Finally, it discusses how occupiers are to treat an occupied populace.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/geneva_conventions
Unforeseen consequence : UN regard it as potentially being a war crime.
Barack Obama promises a "full investigation" into the raid against the MSF hospital in the Afghan city of Kunduz, which killed 19 people.
Sadly, the Americans have long abandoned any pretence of submitting themselves to the Geneva Convention. Putting so many in chains and imprisoning them, especially in Guantanamo Bay concentration camp will have long lasting repercussions.
Every American is now at personal risk because none can hope for nor claim protection under the Geneva Convention or any other international law. Their only hope in the US government will continue to offer them military protection.
A rather optimistic position given the US governments record.