Is this a rip off? Or is this Frontier first encounters all over again?

The posting of spam, off topic and pointless posts in a topic in a deliberate attempt to derail and lock it is a lot more offensive to me than some people disagreeing about the level of communication we'd like to see.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs. If this topic does get locked now it shows that free and open debate can be shouted down and derailed by a group of people willing to make useless posts.

They're not useless posts, it's a tactic typical onsome forums.

Those that appear least affected are the most vocal
Those that shout the loudest get their own way
History is written by the victor

It seems there are enough people who can't accept the criticism so they have to attempt to trivialize the topic, which they have done, failing that it gets trolled to death.

If this thread gets locked it sinks to the bottom to be forgotten.
 

danjo

Banned
i kind of get where the OP was going here. i get the impression ED is milking a little more out of these "alpha 1,2" etc .. id hate to put ED in the same HORRIBLE basket as SC for $cheming more money from their customer base.
 

Squicker

S
i kind of get where the OP was going here. i get the impression ED is milking a little more out of these "alpha 1,2" etc .. id hate to put ED in the same HORRIBLE basket as SC for $cheming more money from their customer base.

If you can bring yourself to read all 48 pages, you'll see why that tactic would not play out so well for FD in all likelihood; the cash spend rate in alpha has to be far higher than the money they get back from selling more alphas. However, I am sure they did realise a way of offsetting some losses from extended testing was to open up the sale of that very testing.

I cannot know this for a fact, but the only way for FD to start making real money is to release the game, so I am sure they want to do that ASAP.

I'm not supporting FD by rote - my confidence in their ability to deliver has dropped off markedly due to the weak comms - but I think we can be confident they won't stay in alpha any longer than they think they have to.
 
But guys, does anyone seriously doubts that David Braben can deliver? They are sufficiently funded already. They are delivering excellence, and the alpha simply takes as long as it takes. The only thing you could do is to sacrifice quality to rush to release. Be glad they are spending the money to develop quality.

I share the frustration of the slow rate of in depth updates (the lead sound designer was nice though) and especially lack of eye candy like ships and stuff, since eye candy would actually help sell ED game. Look at what SC is doing, they are rendering ships and sell them for hundreds of dollars.
But there is more than enough evidence of good progress in the alpha video's and you can see a very structured development process. And it's not that they are not communicating, they are actually posting in this forum, listening to feedback, and pouring over bug reports. Any kind of "vote of confidence" isn't supported by the facts.

Personally I think this thread should have been closed from the start because of the insinuating thread topic. That leads to trolling, and both "sides" baiting each other. The OP issued a challenge that can't go unanswered by us fanboys.

So close the thread and make a new reasonably polite post demanding more dev updates. That could be productive, while this thread won't become productive. List what areas of the development are not covered enough and include a poll to measure how much weight people are putting on dev updates.
 
But guys, does anyone seriously doubts that David Braben can deliver? They are sufficiently funded already. They are delivering excellence, and the alpha simply takes as long as it takes. The only thing you could do is to sacrifice quality to rush to release. Be glad they are spending the money to develop quality.

I share the frustration of the slow rate of in depth updates (the lead sound designer was nice though) and especially lack of eye candy like ships and stuff, since eye candy would actually help sell ED game. Look at what SC is doing, they are rendering ships and sell them for hundreds of dollars.
But there is more than enough evidence of good progress in the alpha video's and you can see a very structured development process. And it's not that they are not communicating, they are actually posting in this forum, listening to feedback, and pouring over bug reports. Any kind of "vote of confidence" isn't supported by the facts.

Personally I think this thread should have been closed from the start because of the insinuating thread topic. That leads to trolling, and both "sides" baiting each other. The OP issued a challenge that can't go unanswered by us fanboys.

So close the thread and make a new reasonably polite post demanding more dev updates. That could be productive, while this thread won't become productive. List what areas of the development are not covered enough and include a poll to measure how much weight people are putting on dev updates.
+1
Right on, Commander!
If this had been the first reply to the OP and Mod Team responding with a quick CLOSE THREAD, lots of frustration & feather rumbling would have been avoided.

OTOH, the thread's entertainment value would also have diminished considerably... :p
 
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But guys, does anyone seriously doubts that David Braben can deliver? They are sufficiently funded already. They are delivering excellence, and the alpha simply takes as long as it takes. The only thing you could do is to sacrifice quality to rush to release. Be glad they are spending the money to develop quality.

So close the thread and make a new reasonably polite post demanding more dev updates. That could be productive, while this thread won't become productive. List what areas of the development are not covered enough and include a poll to measure how much weight people are putting on dev updates.

One thing is for sure... FD _WILL_ deliver, as they have already delivered with the Alpha. Let's be honest though, poking holes and finding fault in everything and anything is possible - even TESCO oranges if it's suits us. (for example) :D

I think a lot of the frustration and annoyance comes from the Alpha being just so damned good. It looks jaw-droppingly awesome and the friends I have in Alpha do not have anything bad to say about it, with only the occasional software crash being a minor setback.

I've always said "Let the dev's get on with it." and I guess you're right about threads of this nature not being productive and putting extra pressure on them when they already have more than enough work on their hands. Which is why I agree that complaining openly about things isn't the best way forward.
 

Squicker

S
But guys, does anyone seriously doubts that David Braben can deliver? They are sufficiently funded already. They are delivering excellence, and the alpha simply takes as long as it takes. The only thing you could do is to sacrifice quality to rush to release. Be glad they are spending the money to develop quality.
.

They will definitely deliver something!

Emotionally, I *feel* they will deliver a good game. But someone who merely goes through life on feel alone will end up disappointed many times and also put themselves in some tricky positions!

We have to remember DB has not always covered himself in glory in the past. FFE was no doubt rushed out as a total mess to meet publisher deadlines. So no one here is asking they do a similar thing and compromise on quality to rush this out, but the simple fact is, when a project has poor comms (and I appreciate this can be viewed relatively) it is often the tip of the iceberg. When a project cannot even get the public interface right - the comms - it's nearly alway a signifier that other things are also wrong with a project. Most projects try their utmost to make sure that at the very least they present a calm and considered face to the outside world, even when all inside is utter mayhem; the swan paddling analogy.

So when we see a project clam up on reasons for significant delay (remember, few are asking for a new timeline here), it is prudent to at least consider the project may be experiencing equally significant problems. To just say to oneself, "it's DB, he made the original Elite 30 years ago, it'll be great", is blinkered. Until the game is installed and we can see for ourselves, it could always be a turkey. It's not like the gaming industry doesn't let us down on a regular basis.

Whilst there is no publisher pushing a deadline here, there is a pot of money doing the same thing. I am not sure how FD is staffed, but perhaps there are also freelance resources that have limited timespans to dedicate to the work, so the longer it goes on, the risk of not retaining resource or staying in budget gets higher. If the game is significantly delayed (if we were talking say 2015 release or later), it would be out of date upon release, in terms of engine etc. This would hurt sales, a lot of people these days simply don't want to play games that look dated upon release. There are so many great playing games out there that also look great, why settle for a valiant effort that looks a bit naff...

I don't know how much money they have but the KS £2m will not last long at all in alpha mode (fully resourced project team in all roles). People do say they have a lot more on top of this, however.

So yes, it's great to extend timelines to improve quality, no one would argue otherwise, so long as it's sustainable. But we've not even heard from FD that is why the timeline is extended. That's the crux of the argument for more comms; "just give us some rationale and we'll shut up!"

Closing this thread, which has at nearly all times been polite and well reasoned by both sides, would have been a perfect example of over-moderation. And someone would have merely opened a new thread for the same things. Maybe the OP opened the thread with a tone some people don't take to, but so what? - we are not tiny children. If we all went through life trying to silence those that spoke or behaved in ways we don't like, it'd be rather autocratic. We have no right in life to expect people to talk in terms we personally like or agree with.
 
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I think a lot of the frustration and annoyance comes from the Alpha being just so damned good. It looks jaw-droppingly awesome and the friends I have in Alpha do not have anything bad to say about it, with only the occasional software crash being a minor setback.

Don't worry, alpha 2 changes this perception pretty fast. Ok, it looks better with each release, but network issues, strange crashes, routing configurations. People complaining being griefed :D You don't want to go there :p

At this point everyone seems to be very determined to get to beta as fast as humanly possible. I mean, look at 2.2 changelog - I didn't expect gameplay changes, and I didn't expect avatar. Heck, even planet fixes and other PG stuff are rolled in.
 
At this point everyone seems to be very determined to get to beta as fast as humanly possible. I mean, look at 2.2 changelog - I didn't expect gameplay changes, and I didn't expect avatar. Heck, even planet fixes and other PG stuff are rolled in.

There are many people working on the game... it makes sense that each area is incrementally improved (or made worse in the case of the avatar :p ;) ) with each release as you don't have the graphics folk or the sound folk working on the netcode (which seems to be the most broken part so far)!
 
OP and other moaners need to get a little perspective. If you want to see an in-Beta game (yes, Beta - so it should be better than Alpha ... right?) that's been extremely badly handled, you need look no further than Blizzard Entertainment's 'Hearthstone'.

Not only is the game itself badly broken with a number of long-standing game-breaking bugs, but there are major server issues with ALL of Blizzard's games, particularly in Europe (you either can't connect, the connection is very slow or the connection is randomly dropped mid-game). Such issues are causing people to lose games which they have paid to play (in Hearthstone, for example, you pay to play Arena with earned in-game Gold or real money). However, if people lose games due to server issues do Blizzard offer a refund? Nope. Not a chance. They are more than happy to take the money (-real money or earned in-Game Gold), but don't like to give it back when a server issue causes game losses.

On top of all that, besides the Blizzard EU Twitter account, there is no direct line to Blizzard to get updates on current situations (and what is Tweeted is often (but not always) placatory and vague at best - the people are obviously doing their best to help but information available to them is apparently lacking - at least that's the impression that I get).

Their forums are a mess, filled with kids wailing and being offensive to others and their customer services folks not being able to help much with technical issues.

There is a SEVERE communications problem at Blizzard. There isn't even a location that lists the status of their servers.

Frontier Developments and Elite: Dangerous are bloody excellent in comparison (and in all ways imaginable). In fact, even without comparing the two, I'd say that Frontier Developments are doing a superb job, not just with Elite: Dangerous but also with keeping their customers informed.
 
Frontier Developments and Elite: Dangerous are bloody excellent in comparison (and in all ways imaginable). In fact, even without comparing the two, I'd say that Frontier Developments are doing a superb job, not just with Elite: Dangerous but also with keeping their customers informed.
That's like comparing a cake to a turd, and saying that because the cake is better than the turd, it can't be improved by a bit of icing :p
 
No, gamma comes after beta 2, which comes after beta 1, which comes after the last alpha - all of which have no timescale except "when they're ready".

Kickstarter said:
The game is planned to be released on the PC in March 2014.
This information has not been updated on the Elite website.
No delay announcement has been given that I'm aware of.
I'm not expecting full release next month but there is no other customer information published on the home page to suggest any delay. From around 43,000 backers not all of them would root around a forum to discover delays. Many may still be expecting the full game in a couple of weeks time.
 
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Frontier Developments and Elite: Dangerous are bloody excellent in comparison (and in all ways imaginable). In fact, even without comparing the two, I'd say that Frontier Developments are doing a superb job, not just with Elite: Dangerous but also with keeping their customers informed.
We shouldn't have to compare this project to the worst examples of project management in order to make it look good.

I admire your mañana attitude but it isn't shared by everybody. Some people would like some information about why there has been a delay. Others, including myself, would even like there to be a new estimated delivery date to replace the one we were originally given.

My opinion is that there is a good reason that Kickstarter requires project owners to give an estimated delivery date. It isn't an arbitrary requirement and it's not optional. In casually dispensing with the estimated date Frontier have sidestepped something that is there to hold them to a modicum of accountability to their backers.
 
This information has not been updated on the Elite website.
No delay announcement has been given that I'm aware of.
You are right on the website thing, but they did speak about the delays in their latest development video thingummy, the link to which was sent to all backers (I believe - at least I remember getting it).
 
My opinion is that there is a good reason that Kickstarter requires project owners to give an estimated delivery date. It isn't an arbitrary requirement and it's not optional. In casually dispensing with the estimated date Frontier have sidestepped something that is there to hold them to a modicum of accountability to their backers.

Whilst this is undeniably true, from today (19 Feb 2014) it will be 42 days until the originally estimated Kickstarter release deadline is passed. So technically the game is not yet actually delayed. Of course we all know that two more alphas and the entire beta are unlikely to come and go in the space of 42 days, unless the answer to life the universe and everything, really is 42. But joking aside, if we regard the Kickstarter FAQ guidelines as 'law' (which they of course aren't), then FD still have 42 days left in which to report on any delay to the aforementioned release estimate and still be within that FAQ guideline with regard to advising backers of a delay.
 
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This information has not been updated on the Elite website.
No delay announcement has been given that I'm aware of.
That's very true and it would be worth their while updating this so as not to be advertising possibly misleading information. I seem to remember an FD staff member mentioning something like this to us regarding "joke" posts that might be read by outsiders and taken as gospel! :p
 
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