The Dance of Pirate and Traders. Advice for both parties

[khaitom]

WOW. That video should be the load screen for Open Mode.

And sadly it really shows that FD and DB have no clue about PvP…

Until ship and cargo destruction faces a proper penalty then it'll be imbalanced and pirates will complain that traders don't like them. Harsh penalties for killers and a way for bounty hunters to find them and the "worst" of the pirates (read: best, or most notorious) would help, but after a year of waiting it still hasn't happened.

Traders face massive losses when faced with pirates or PKers. Pirates face very little danger.

NPC piracy can be very profitable if you are seeking luxuries

 

[PotatoOverdose]

In my experience, traders can be broadly categorized into one of 2 groups.

1) Thoes that tunnel vission on their credit balance to the exclusion of all else.

2) Those that are looking for a visceral game play experience, with adventure and challenges to overcome. They want credits, but they also want adventure, not monotony.

For #1, solo and moebius exists.

And open exists for group #2. Think about your favorite sci-fi show. How boring would it have been to watch firefly if Malcolm Reynold's crew was never opposed by some dastardly antagonist? Watching how the crew fares when overcoming these challenges was the adventure.

What about Star Trek? If there were never any adversaries, it would be the most boring show imaginable: Captain's Log - Stardate 35976.2: Catalogued a gaseous anomaly today. All is well. Stardate 35977.4: Catalogued a gaseous anomaly today. Counselor Troi reported feeling an evil presence, must be that time of month again. Had Coffee and Croissant for Breakfast. All is well.

Some traders want adventure, challenge, and adversity. For them, open exists.

 

[Jesters09]

Traders.

If you fly a barebones tradeship focussed entirely on maximising profits, with no consideration to survivability, you can only blame yourself when a total ship and cargo loss occurs.

I see your comment and I raise you--------> money, money, money, money, money, money, money, MONEY!

I blame myself, I am such a stupid, silly, stinking rich, mother trucker!

 

[CMDR Ellegon]

What? This is the very definition of combat logging. Interdiction is part of the combat IMHO. You are correct that anyone resorting to this probably doesn't belong in Open though.

No, it is not. This is a "graceful" exit that leaves your ship in danger for 15 seconds. Combat Logging is ALT-F4 or interrupting your internet connection, which will take you out of the game immediately and without risk.

 

[khaitom]

In my experience, traders can be broadly categorized into one of 2 groups.

1) Thoes that tunnel vission on their credit balance to the exclusion of all else.

2) Those that are looking for a visceral game play experience, with adventure and challenges to overcome. They want credits, but they also want adventure, not monotony.

For #1, solo and moebius exists.

And open exists for group #2. Think about your favorite sci-fi show. How boring would it have been to watch firefly if Malcolm Reynold's crew was never opposed by some dastardly antagonist? Watching how the crew fares when overcoming these challenges was the adventure.

What about Star Trek? If there were never any adversaries, it would be the most boring show imaginable: Captain's Log - Stardate 35976.2: Catalogued a gaseous anomaly today. All is well. Stardate 35977.4: Catalogued a gaseous anomaly today. Counselor Troi reported feeling an evil presence, must be that time of month again. Had Coffee and Croissant for Breakfast. All is well.

Some traders want adventure, challenge, and adversity. For them, open exists.

What about the third type>

3. Those that are looking for a visceral game play experience, with adventure and challenges to overcome. They want credits, but they also want adventure, not monotony but are sick of player killers with no interest in dialogue or a deeper game just destroying their ship and cargo and costing them another few days of gameplay to earn it back before being blown up yet again.

Do they not exist?

How boring would Firefly have been if the ship got blown up every episode just as it was starting to get interesting.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

What about the third type>

3. Those that are looking for a visceral game play experience, with adventure and challenges to overcome. They want credits, but they also want adventure, not monotony but are sick of player killers with no interest in dialogue or a deeper game just destroying their ship and cargo and costing them another few days of gameplay to earn it back before being blown up yet again.

Do they not exist?

A part of adventure and challenge is the possibility of losing. IF there was not a chance of death and loss, there would be no adventure. In firefly, the Reavers offered no dialogue - they were still a foe to be overcome, and they could be overcome. There are traders out there that can consistently defeat interdiction attempts - I've seen them in the CG's - they consistently beat interdiction attempts from multiple groups. It CAN be done.

I would say your group #3 is a subset of my group #2 that hasn't quite mastered all of the tactics available to them - look upon it as an opportunity for growth.

 

[khaitom]

A part of adventure and challenge is the possibility of losing. IF there was not a chance of death and loss, there would be no adventure. In firefly, the Reavers offered no dialogue - they were still a foe to be overcome, and they could be overcome.There are traders out there that can consistently defeat interdiction attempts - I've seen them in the CG's - they consistently beat interdiction attempts from multiple groups. It CAN be done.

I would say your group #3 is a subset of my group #2 that hasn't quite mastered all of the tactics available to them - look upon it as an opportunity for growth.

No, the third group are the ones who avoid interdiction completely or submit, boost, jump, repeat, and get away. They're the ones pirates complain about, they've learnt to use the tactics to avoid Pirates and PKers alike. It lessens the pirates' game but until there is balance it'll keep happening.

Of course avoiding interdictions can be done, that doesn't provide for a deeper experience. I haven't been pirated in months because I now assume they're all KPers as they all have been. I avoid, evade and run from interdictions. I'd prefer to meet genuine pirates but the number of player killers about means it's not worth the risk.

Where is the pirates' "chance of death and loss" that you are so keen on?

(I've only met player killers in the entire time since pre-beta, save for one inexperienced pirate who ran when my trader turned out to be less unarmed than they assumed. I don't know where all the pirates are but they're welcome to pirate me if they can catch me. I've only ever pirated rich NPCs)

 

[anikaiful]

What's there for both Pirates and Traders to do: clear the playfield of the giggling psychos who ruin the name of actual pirates and the game for traders.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

No, the third group are the ones who avoid interdiction completely or submit, boost, jump, repeat, and get away. They're the ones pirates complain about, they've learnt to use the tactics to avoid Pirates and PKers alike. It lessens the pirates' game but until there is balance it'll keep happening.

Of course avoiding interdictions can be done, that doesn't provide for a deeper experience. I haven't been pirated in months because I now assume they're all KPers as they all have been. I avoid, evade and run from interdictions. I'd prefer to meet genuine pirates but the number of player killers about means it's not worth the risk.

Of course you can avoid loosing cargo by submitting, boosting away, and using high wake. But here's the thing: when you do that, the next time that pirate sees you, he'll try to kill you on sight. And he'll be right to do it.

So if you're one of those traders that don't co-operate, don't complain when you're kill-on-sight. You're only worth anything alive if you give cargo - if not, best to make an example of you.

 

[khaitom]

Of course you can avoid loosing cargo by submitting, boosting away, and using high wake. But here's the thing: when you do that, the next time that pirate sees you, he'll try to kill you on sight. And he'll be right to do it.

So if you're one of those traders that don't co-operate, don't complain when you're kill-on-sight. You're only worth anything alive if you give cargo - if not, best to make an example of you.

Everyone who has ever interdicted me (save for the one person mentioned above) has tried to kill me on sight, so what exactly is the difference? Pirates still calling for a guaranteed win or you get put on a kill list. Ha.

The fact that pirates maintain revenge lists is laughable. You'll probably never meet me again.

Traders choice:
Submit and wait - almost certainly get blown up.
Run - get put on a kill list to get blown up
1 in 100 times - meet a pirate who will let you go in exchange for cargo

 

[Jockey79]

What's there for both Pirates and Traders to do: clear the playfield of the giggling psychos who ruin the name of actual pirates and the game for traders.

Unless of course the "giggling psychos" are just trying to stop people from playing their way - and dragging them away from other pursuits in game to deal with them, which actually accomplishes their goal of stopping traders / hunter etc. So we end up with, the only people being happy with the game are the "giggling psychos".

Then those who don't get to play their way, get bored and leave because they are not doing what they want.
Then the "giggling psychos" run out of people to torment, distract and force to their end game - they get bored and leave.

Yay, game is dead and every one is happy...

oh, wait...

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Everyone who has ever interdicted me (save for the one person mentioned above) has tried to kill me on sight, so what exactly is the difference? Pirates still calling for a guaranteed win or you get put on a kill list. Ha.

The fact that pirates maintain revenge lists is laughable. You'll probably never meet me again.

Question: do you boost away when you get interdicted? Many pirates I've spoken to will only try to open up a dialogue if the target doesn't try to run, myself included. If you're already running, there's no point in talking, so might as well shoot you.

 

[khaitom]

What's there for both Pirates and Traders to do: clear the playfield of the giggling psychos who ruin the name of actual pirates and the game for traders.

As soon as Frontier give us the tools and rewards I'll be back to my preferred trade of bounty hunting.

- - - Updated - - -

Question: do you boost away when you get interdicted? Many pirates I've spoken to will only try to open up a dialogue if the target doesn't try to run, myself included. If you're already running, there's no point in talking, so might as well shoot you.

Only ONE person since pre-beta has ever attempted any dialogue. Sorry two, one asked me to tell them a joke and when I couldn't remember one they opened fire. Now (for the last two months) if they can successfully interdict me I just run and don't even give the comms a second look. It's just a waste of time when even submitting and instantly dropping everything still gets you blown up.

 

[OnePercent]

I Either Fly towards them, go passed them and boost then jump away, if i find my self in a situation with no return, I just waste their time as much as possible. Not a single ton dropped.

 

[Jockey79]

..... so might as well shoot you.

and that is why people boost away / HW out / logout properly / combat log / avoid open

Have a macro set up so as soon as you're out of the mini game, stating your intentions.
If they boost away, leave them to it. Just spam your macro.

Sooner or later, people will learn that you are not the killer type and may stick around to see what you actually want.

 

[khaitom]

and that is why people boost away / HW out / logout properly / combat log / avoid open

Have a macro set up so as soon as you're out of the mini game, stating your intentions.
Id they boost away, leave them to it. Just spam your macro.

Sooner or later, people will learn that you are not the killer type and may stick around to see what you actually want.

Yes, this might help. The fact that pirates see any form of resistance as justification to destroy a ship and cargo doesn't help their cries of noble piracy.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

and that is why people boost away / HW out / logout properly / combat log / avoid open

Have a macro set up so as soon as you're out of the mini game, stating your intentions.
If they boost away, leave them to it. Just spam your macro.

Sooner or later, people will learn that you are not the killer type and may stick around to see what you actually want.

But I AM the killer type - I kill anyone that tries to run. After the interdiction is successful, I do one of two things:

1) If the target is standing perfectly still, not trying to run, I'll say "hello", cargo scan them, and if they have something. I'll ask for a paltry 10 tons of cargo to be jettisoned as 'abandoned'. Then, they're free to go.

2) If they run, fight, boost, charge FSD, I kill them.

To me, it's win-win. I get to chase and kill them if they run, but if they co-operate, I don't "poison the well" for pirates and co-operative traders alike.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, this might help. The fact that pirates see any form of resistance as justification to destroy a ship and cargo doesn't help their cries of noble piracy.

So let me get this straight: You're running away, not co-operating. And I'm supposed to have a chance of getting your cargo without shooting you? lol-wut?

 

[Jockey79]

But I AM the killer type - I kill anyone that tries to run. After the interdiction is successful, I do one of two things:

1) If the target is standing perfectly still, not trying to run, I'll say "hello", cargo scan them, and if they have something. I'll ask for a paltry 10 tons of cargo to be jettisoned as 'abandoned'. Then, they're free to go.

2) If they run, fight, boost, charge FSD, I kill them.

To me, it's win-win. I get to chase and kill them if they run, but if they co-operate, I don't "poison the well" for pirates and co-operative traders alike.

But, you are "poising the well". If killing is you first resort then people will assume that's all you do they will just leave open while in your area.



You can take out their thrusters, you can have friends in big ships to mass lock so they cannot get to their destination and have to HW.
If traders feel they can escape from time to time, they are more likely to risk the encounter.

No chances of escape = why bother playing

 

[PotatoOverdose]

But, you are "poising the well". If killing is you first resort then people will assume that's all you do they will just leave open while in your area.

View attachment 66171

You can take out their thrusters, you can have friends in big ships to mass lock so they cannot get to their destination and have to HW.
If traders feel they can escape from time to time, they are more likely to risk the encounter.

No chances of escape = why bother playing

Thing is, there are plenty of traders that co-operate. Not 5 minutes ago, I interdicted an unshielded type-7 at the bacon CG. We had a pleasent chat, he dropped 10 tons of meat, and was on his way.

In my experience it's maybe 60/40 against a trader co-operating. That's not bad odds. Put it another way: There are good eggs - the traders that co-operate. No reason to punish them, and my paltry 10 tons are a meager fee. I like these traders, so I treat them well.

Then there are the traders that don't co-operate. The bad eggs. One way or another, these are useless to myself and other pirates. So I may as well have some fun and see a pretty explosion.

 

[Jockey79]

...
Then there are the traders that don't co-operate. The bad eggs. One way or another, these are useless to myself and other pirates. So I may as well have some fun and see a pretty explosion.

Not everyone is a "bad egg" - just as not every armed ship is flown by a "griefer"

If people have had bad experiences in the past with an interdiction - they will react to that.
Showing them you are not one of those will help them chill out and respond in a way you like, not try to run / HW etc...

All your doing by killing is reinforcing what they expected to start with. Letting the odd one or two escape will put them at ease and perhaps have them play along next time.