If you link to SC imdb page does that mean you just doxed CR?
The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0
- Thread starter Jenner
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Well at some point they have to build the ship. If a concept sale brings in a million bucks, then sure, I think that'll cover it. If not, then there's a problem.
And on top of that is the overall financial situation, which CR has not answered to date, because "It would spark criticism". Which is not the kind of response I was hoping for.
Yeah LOD is a mess. Even the demo videos are choppy and I've written a better looking procedural terrain engine from scratch back in 2000 myself.
And the worst part is, Derek's using an existing engine now too, or to be more precise a wild mishmash of commercial middlewares and libraries. His ambitions are great, but his execution is lacking. I love how the sound of his ship is just a single, obviously looping sample.
So yeah, whatever problems SC has, the unfinished output of CIG looks and plays better than the finished results of Derek Smart so far. He should really hire some better people, and perhaps think about scrapping the entire thing and doing a fresh start. Still, I don't think this invalidates all of his points. Quite the opposite, because as bad as his games are, they do have a massive scope and he does have experience with trying to realize such a big variety of gameplay mechanics in a single product. Don't forget that when you judge the value of his statements.
Additions to CIG Frankfurt.
- Robert Stephens, joined Foundry 42 FFT as Senior Environment 3D Artist / Prop Artist was Senor Environment Artist / Prop Artist at Crytek
Portfolio: https://www.artstation.com/artist/logan_5
- Christopher Speak, joined Foundry 42 FFT as Senior QA was Embedded Editor QA Tester (Cinebox) at Crytek
- Atri Dave, joined Foundry 42 FFT as Senior Technical Artist, was Senior Technical Artist at Crytek
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You could argue that Derek Smart is the worlds foremost expert on failing to make successful massive space games. As such his concerns (learned through his own repeated failures) should be taken seriously. Or you could write him off as sulking because other people are making the games he always wanted to make.
I don't recall anything near it being done before, let alone in under a year. There is clearly a market for this, given the million backers and insane amount of money the game has brought in, so if it were that easy then why aren't more "competent teams" doing it?
I don't get this argument either. You could say the same thing about specific trees in Crysis or a particular dinosaur in ARK - except that neither of those bring in any extra money from concept sales.
As far as that money goes, how much did the Endeavor sale make? How much have they made since CitizenCon? I read an argument about these events being time and money wasters recently yet both appear to have brought in $millions in a matter of days.
No it'll still matter about the same as whatever his pledge was. I think you'll find he'll be one of the extreme few who is asking for a refund since CitizenCon or from the start though, just barely over 0.1% according to this - https://www.vg247.com/2015/08/21/roberts-star-citizen-refund-numbers-very-very-low-definitely-the-minority/
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I dunno. Turns out building a hall effect thruster for spacecraft is actually quite easy if you know how. So why aren't you doing it, and making millions yet selling them to major space frame producers like Boeing? Maybe because even if you have the know-how, it's still a risk? Maybe you'd not be taken seriously even if your product was working fine? Maybe you may have other projects that are less risky with a better payout?
Also, other teams are indeed doing it, though on a smaller scale.
Developer efficiency varies by a factor of 100. (Quote from mythical man month, but my experience says it's pretty much spot-on)
You can't just "get better developers". It's damn difficult to attract the right people. And when you're stuck with a team of middle-of-the-range devs, there's not a switch you can throw to fix this.
What's difficult to get? If you announce a new ship and do concept sales for it, you're incurring a certain debt. You're getting money now, but you have to factor in the future cost of turning the concept into a fully playable asset. And SC ships are quite complex beasts by and in themselves. Plus you're selling a drawing with some text, with the risk of irritating your customers as you find out that even major specs have to change due to balance reasons. Or in the case of the explorer vessel, how can they advertise such a thing when there's no exploration?
I'm not saying ship concept sales can't work. I'm saying they're probably not a good idea for the project as a whole. Am I right? Perhaps, perhaps not.
We don't know. We can see the overall graph of incoming cash, but we don't see the graph of money spent. We also don't know how much of the regular "bumps" that come with major conventions and new demo reels are due to the concept sale or the overall increase of people who just decided to get any number of packages on offer.
and here i thought a bunch of us were going to be impressed with citizencon. seems things are still in the same rut... oh well. 
i'm going to go back to what i've done for the previous year+. forget about SC and do other stuff. hopefully i'll be pleasantly surprised some day in the future.
i'm going to go back to what i've done for the previous year+. forget about SC and do other stuff. hopefully i'll be pleasantly surprised some day in the future.
Ship sales for a none existing ship are a deferred production requirement. As long as you know that the production cost and the revenue gained from their sale exceeds that cost then they make sense and add finance in the short term for the game. I believe the way they are currently being done the true cost is not known and that the pipeline of unmade ships is assumed to be fulfilled by post release sales revenue.
Whilst the model is legal, I think its an area that probably needs looking at by the regulators. It's not a donation, it's not pledging at a level, because the ship has an intrinsic cash value so its effectively a digital purchase and there should be some sort of defined delivery period. The seller cannot recognise the sale until delivery, but can use the cash for anything, which is really what a donation is. It reminds me of a Ponzi scheme. I think there probably needs to be some rules about how much of that cash you can actually use for unrelated production or how long you can defer delivery without refunding. If you take ED - actually the money involved was very small, but here it is significant and there is a clear pricing model linking ship performance to price. To be honest - very clever and whoever came up with it is a genius.
Whilst the model is legal, I think its an area that probably needs looking at by the regulators. It's not a donation, it's not pledging at a level, because the ship has an intrinsic cash value so its effectively a digital purchase and there should be some sort of defined delivery period. The seller cannot recognise the sale until delivery, but can use the cash for anything, which is really what a donation is. It reminds me of a Ponzi scheme. I think there probably needs to be some rules about how much of that cash you can actually use for unrelated production or how long you can defer delivery without refunding. If you take ED - actually the money involved was very small, but here it is significant and there is a clear pricing model linking ship performance to price. To be honest - very clever and whoever came up with it is a genius.
I don't know about previous sales but now they really make it quite clear what you're paying for and what you're getting - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/.../14998-The-Aegis-Sabre-And-Military-Ship-Sale
and..
As for these sales not making money...if that were the case then why would they continue with them? This is just basic logic but people are tying themselves in knots trying to find anything that they can use as an anti point. Didn't the Escapist article claim that they didn't have enough people working on ships? But now it's maybe costing too much money and development time anyway?
I think we can safely apply Occam's razor here. The ships make money to help for game development - which they make clear in the sale page - and will be provided to the player as soon as they're ready. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this except for obvious potential for pay2win, which remains to be seen.
Edit - Look at the Endeavor disclaimer - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14972-Research-Unbound-The-MISC-Endeavor
They literally cannot be any more upfront with buyers than that.
and..
That's not the small print either, and it comes before the purchase button. Nobody can be in any doubt about what they're getting here? Their marketing is a lot less devious than others I can think of.
As for these sales not making money...if that were the case then why would they continue with them? This is just basic logic but people are tying themselves in knots trying to find anything that they can use as an anti point. Didn't the Escapist article claim that they didn't have enough people working on ships? But now it's maybe costing too much money and development time anyway?
I think we can safely apply Occam's razor here. The ships make money to help for game development - which they make clear in the sale page - and will be provided to the player as soon as they're ready. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this except for obvious potential for pay2win, which remains to be seen.
Edit - Look at the Endeavor disclaimer - https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14972-Research-Unbound-The-MISC-Endeavor
They literally cannot be any more upfront with buyers than that.
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
*Mod hat off
Indeed, often times fans forget that those ships will actually need to be developped, integrated within the context the rest of the ships, made to fly properly and distinctively enough within the constraints of the flight model, balance it (weapons-wise, PU wise etc), allow for the proper module structure, made all their actual "moving parts" (i.e. physically moving or not) work porperly etc etc etc. That is not an insignificant amount of work, and it has been referred to recently as an "engineering debt".
I dont think this debt can be simply handwaved away with the usual arguments of "oh, but it brings in millions". Millions alone dont deliver proper content, people do. Irrespective of the "millions" each and every of those ships and variants will require a serious workload pipeline that if long enough can eventually be in the critical path of delivery for the project overall, forcing CIG to take difficult decisions about a great number of things such as hiring (and training!) more resources to develop them, deliver in time but at sub par quality or cutting some content, or deliver in quality but at a later delayed date. It is risking that CIG can not catch up with expected delivery dates due to this debt. Millions or not.
If this engineering "debt" can not be serviced reasonably this can contribute to CIG be put in a situation not too dissimilar, in its principle, to what many banks, private firms and a few governments have had to undergo throughout the financial market crisis which is still lingering. I.e. financing debt with more debt is not really where you want to be. It can be sustained for a while but you better have a solid plan to escape that vicious circle.
Of course that there is the possibility that they deliver in time and in quality within 2016 as suggested by CIG but given the delays they have had to date, including Star Marine etc, and all the issues to keep dates reasonable I doubt very much this is a realistic possible outcome.
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From reading the thread am I right in thinking this:
Elite = Star Trek. i.e. based on science fact. Whereas SC is Star Wars, pure science fiction and more about action than reality?
Also Elite, started with the emphasis on the vehicles, whereas SC has started with the emphasis on being a person?
Elite = Star Trek. i.e. based on science fact. Whereas SC is Star Wars, pure science fiction and more about action than reality?
Also Elite, started with the emphasis on the vehicles, whereas SC has started with the emphasis on being a person?
Am I the only one that finds it funny that the PACKAGE - AURORA MR AC STARTER
[video]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Aurora-MR-AC-Starter[/video]
is the exact same package as the PACKAGE - SQUADRON 42 PREORDER
[video]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Squadron-42-Preorder[/video]
its just one is called pre-order and its green?
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You forgot about the Midi-chlorian's and the bad acting, oh Oldmen did call CR the George Lucass of the game world so there is that.
Edit: One and only text about it, i am selling my LTI packages and ships, see the reddit, or PM me about it.
[video]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Aurora-MR-AC-Starter[/video]
is the exact same package as the PACKAGE - SQUADRON 42 PREORDER
[video]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/Packages/Squadron-42-Preorder[/video]
its just one is called pre-order and its green?
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You forgot about the Midi-chlorian's and the bad acting, oh Oldmen did call CR the George Lucass of the game world so there is that.
Edit: One and only text about it, i am selling my LTI packages and ships, see the reddit, or PM me about it.
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I like how all of the packages are "in stock". I guess that's something.
Gotta make sure they don't run out of their nonexisting virtual spaceships.
Talking about space ships. In the ship matrix you can track which production stage a ship is currently in.
About %50 of the ships are in the game. There are different stages though. You have "Flight Ready" which means it can be flown in SC Alpha 1.2. There is "Hangar Ready" which means you can check the ship out in your hangar. "In Production" means that it is being worked on right now. "Concept" means that it has just been concepted.
Here is the link: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/ship-specs
About %50 of the ships are in the game. There are different stages though. You have "Flight Ready" which means it can be flown in SC Alpha 1.2. There is "Hangar Ready" which means you can check the ship out in your hangar. "In Production" means that it is being worked on right now. "Concept" means that it has just been concepted.
Here is the link: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/ship-specs
I would add:
- "Flight ready, but make sure you got mouse and keyboard"
- "Hangar ready, aka. you can watch it and imagine you're flying it with a mouse and keyboard"
- "In Production, aka. you will soon see what you can't fly but will soon* be able to do even that - with a mouse and keyboard"
- "Concept, aka. you can watch a nice picture of something that you will soon* see but won't be able to fly, although eventually* you will - with a mouse and keyboard"
*Soon - varies between 1-2yrs.
*Eventually - varies between 1-2yrs.
- "Flight ready, but make sure you got mouse and keyboard"
- "Hangar ready, aka. you can watch it and imagine you're flying it with a mouse and keyboard"
- "In Production, aka. you will soon see what you can't fly but will soon* be able to do even that - with a mouse and keyboard"
- "Concept, aka. you can watch a nice picture of something that you will soon* see but won't be able to fly, although eventually* you will - with a mouse and keyboard"
*Soon - varies between 1-2yrs.
*Eventually - varies between 1-2yrs.
Thanks to Mr Nowak (couldn't rep as you've had too much from me!) and that code I thought I'd try and see what SC was like for myself. I registered and started the big download, thing is my missus complained she couldn't access anything via her laptop....I checked things out but couldn't find a reason..until I paused the SC download and she could access the net. Anyone know why this is? I don't get this issue when I'm downloading Steam games. I get similar d/l speeds from Steam and the SC launcher (5mb or so).
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