General / Off-Topic World refugee crisis

I haven't tried to defend the MAD doctrine I was condemning it and wild eyed religious types, in a lighthearted way. Hence the tongue in cheek tone.

As far as my logic on MAD goes, I don't think it's a good idea, in fact I think it would be more aptly named utterly bonkers.

I doubt anyone has defended the MAD doctrine. That isn't the point.

The MAD doctrine is just a load of twisted thinking to attempt to explain how we got into this mess without actually saying what we all know.

That we need enemies.

We need bad people to justify our own failings.

We might attack our enemies bcause they have the ability to launch a 'terrorist' missile on London in 6 minutes! Never mind that the people actually killed, injured lives destroyed are no more guilty that you or I, they are the enemy because we are told so.
 
I doubt anyone has defended the MAD doctrine. That isn't the point.

The MAD doctrine is just a load of twisted thinking to attempt to explain how we got into this mess without actually saying what we all know.

That we need enemies.

We need bad people to justify our own failings.

We might attack our enemies bcause they have the ability to launch a 'terrorist' missile on London in 6 minutes! Never mind that the people actually killed, injured lives destroyed are no more guilty that you or I, they are the enemy because we are told so.

Spot on, nothing is better at distracting attention away from internal problems in a society than the perception of a threat.

Health system in chaos, roads full of holes, industry in decline, food safety compromised for profit, social gap widening, environmental damage worsening, public services being cut to the bone, population disengaged from the democratic process and parts of the country desperate for independence ?.

Don't worry about any of that, we've managed to start a new cold war.
 
Where are the banners of welcome at the station of Munich ? And the people who made guards of honor by applauding ?
 
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Spot on, nothing is better at distracting attention away from internal problems in a society than the perception of a threat.

Health system in chaos, roads full of holes, industry in decline, food safety compromised for profit, social gap widening, environmental damage worsening, public services being cut to the bone, population disengaged from the democratic process and parts of the country desperate for independence ?.

Don't worry about any of that, we've managed to start a new cold war.

Agree with this whole post. The media creates the illusion of threat to detract from other issues closer to home. Civil unrest? Create an outside threat. We're basically being played.
 
Spot on, nothing is better at distracting attention away from internal problems in a society than the perception of a threat.

Health system in chaos, roads full of holes, industry in decline, food safety compromised for profit, social gap widening, environmental damage worsening, public services being cut to the bone, population disengaged from the democratic process and parts of the country desperate for independence ?.

Exactly that. In Germany, the 8 billion EUR (annually) state broadcasters, augmented by the mainstream press (who are in bed with politics) are flooding out refugee stories. Plus: TTIP, Safe Harbour, French trying to force google into censorship, ..., many international topics are then overlooked.

Sad thing is: Even 20 years after the internet has become mainstream media, the masses have not emancipated into doing their own research and making up their own informed opinion.
 
The Westerners play with the fire, in Iraq, in Syria, in Libya and in other countries. And now the boomerang is implemented

So true.

Foreign policy that is directed at de-stabilizing other nations, with the subsequent shunning of the innocent victims is abhorrent.

War is big business. We're all paying for it, and all the while the fat-cats are making hay while the sun shines.

Anyone else out there aware of Muammar Gaddafi's vision of a better Libya?

Here are some Facts you probably do not know about Libya under Muammar Gaddafi:

• There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free … for all its citizens.
• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
• If a Libyan is unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
• Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.
• Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
• A home was considered a human right in Libya. (In Qaddafi’s Green Book it states: “The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.”)
• All newlyweds in Libya would receive 60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
• A portion of Libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
• A mother who gives birth to a child would receive US $5,000.
• When a Libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
• The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter.
• For $ 0.15, a Libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
• Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
• If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
• 25% of Libyans have a university degree. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
• Libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – though much of this is now frozen globally.

Source: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-884508
 
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Anyone else out there aware of Muammar Gaddafi's vision of a better Libya?

Source: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-884508
First is this verified? It's on a CNN page, but the header explicitly says it's unverified. The GDP per capita hit $14k in 2010 (http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/profiles/Libya/Economy), which seems a little low to provide all the benefits listed.
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Assuming all the above was true, it calls into question the importance you place on "democracy" and "freedom" vs physical comfort and security.
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I would say there is some merit in the argument that "democracy" and "freedom" as defined by western and particularly US governments, is somewhat over hyped.
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Many parts of the world seem to be culturally and historically ill suited to democracy, and what people really want (and need) above democracy is a stable (i.e. peaceful and orderly transfers of power between successive governments) and competent (not corrupt or nepotistic) government. People want to be safe in their homes and outside, have the rule of law and reasonable freedoms more than simply having a democracy.
 
German mayoral candidate Reker stabbed over refugee support

A leading candidate in Cologne's mayoral race has been stabbed in the neck by a man claiming to be angry over the country's refugee policies.
Henriette Reker - an independent candidate supported by Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU party - was seriously injured along with an aide. Three others suffered minor injuries.

Read more here.
 
German mayoral candidate Reker stabbed over refugee support

A leading candidate in Cologne's mayoral race has been stabbed in the neck by a man claiming to be angry over the country's refugee policies.
Henriette Reker - an independent candidate supported by Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU party - was seriously injured along with an aide. Three others suffered minor injuries.

Read more here.



With the precariousness, the unemployment, the insecurity, we can foresee more and more of this kind of problem. The autochthons in the difficulties (and there is one very, very, very large quantities), could have resentment toward their leaders and the refugees
 
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Austria is going to build a wall. Congratulations Merkel, for your irresponsibility and your treason to the peoples of Europe. It's time for you to leave the power, retire, and especially make you forget
 
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Avago Earo

Banned
I had so much to say but reading through this thread a lot of that has been said.

Friendly Football stadiums don't sell papers, hooligans do. Ska gigs with multi ethnic kids in boots don't make the headlines; racist boneheads do. People going shopping and just getting along isn't worth the licence fee; a story about a mosque being built might get them going though...

Divide and conquer.

United We Stand ...
 
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That just beats all doesn't it?

I read I think on BBC News, that Merkel has promised to ease the admission of Turkey into the EU if they do more to control the flow of refugees. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-34569620

It's getting beyond stupid.

Merkel is a danger for Europe. Fortunately the Germany can not decide alone. This country is irresponsible and dangerous currently. Merkel criticizes the nationalisms in Europe. But she has initiated this infernal mechanics. The Nationalisms leads to the war. The Germany, once again will be the trigger of a war in Europe ?

Merkel.jpg
 
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Germany is one of the wealthiest nations within the European Union (which makes it to one of the richest countries in the world) and it’s obviously its most influential. Certainly this country didn’t gain that position by being ruled by idiots. I am definitely not a fan of Angela Merkel, I never did vote for her and I see a lot about her that can and should be criticized, but nobody can seriously impute her to be stupid. She does not even have a dump without taking an advantage out of it.

To provide shelter for refugees is not only a humanistic imperative and a consequence of our country's history, it’s also a matter of common sense (and it generates great pictures for public relations and maybe even some good karma :)).

In the 50s and 60s we had Italians coming here to make a living, in the 70s and 80s it were Turkish folks that came as Gastarbeiter (guest workers) or Fremdarbeiter (foreign workers). Admittedly I have no idea what the political correct term currently is, workers with emigrational background? However nowadays we have people from everywhere around the world living here and only a very small number of them live on social security payment. The vast majority are integrated into our society quite well, they have jobs (often in professions that most bio-Germans don’t want to do, like room cleaning, waste disposal or taxi driving), pay taxes and some even create new jobs and become employers themselves.

I live near Frankfurt am Main, which is one of the cities in Germany with the highest amount of inhabitants with emigrational background (about 30%). It’s a cosmopolitan city with great cultural diversity, a traditional centre of trade and exchange. The worlds biggest book fare, the biggest motor show, the Bundesbank, the European Central Bank, the most important stock exchange and the biggest and busiest airport of continental Europe can be found here.
And it’s a pretty good place to live.

Of course it’s never without problems when so many different cultures live together in one place, but I never heard of anything major. On the other hand we also never had any major problems with right-winged extremists here or these embarrassing demonstrations of stupidity, like what can be seen in Dresden for about a year now. I once witnessed them trying to do something similar at the Hauptwache, the central square in Frankfurt’s downtown. It ended with about 60 fools on the podium and a crowd of approximately 5000 people yelling them down, an army of policemen keeping both groups apart. Once again I knew why I like my fellow Frankfurters so much.

Now we have large numbers of refugees, not only, but mostly from Syria coming to Germany and too often I hear people complaining about the costs to accommodate them. These people obviously have no idea, that this money is not simply spilled into the gutter, but must be understood as investment and there seems to be no better way to invest money than in people. Basically that is what everybody does when they buy shares of companies; they invest money in the people that these companies consist of and their future accomplishments. And it is pretty much what I and many others did when we spent money for the Kickstarter to back Elite Dangerous, because we trusted in the ability of Sir David and his teams to come up with something truly amazing.

When money is invested in these refugees, they certainly won't just put it on their bank accounts and be delighted by their newly acquired wealth, like perhaps some already rich investment bankers did, after billions had been spent to save their finance companies. They will spend it to pay the rent, for water and electricity and buying food, thereby generating profits for landlords, construction companies, janitor services, providers of electricity/water/communication, supermarkets and many others. And all of these are then going to pay their employees and taxes with that money.

In the long run providing shelter for refugees will make Germany even richer and more powerful as it already is, because today’s refugees are going to be the future labour force.

Also the war in Syria will not last forever. Maybe it’ll even quicker come to an end, if the airplane crash at the Sinai was in fact caused by an IS attack and Putin will actually bomb primarily their emplacements in Syria as a reaction. However, after the war certainly most of the refugees will return to their homeland. They’ll have learned our language, got accustomed with our way of life and they’ll have a positive opinion about Germany and that can be a good foundation for future business relations, another reliable market for products made in Germany.

As I said, I am really not a fan of Angela Merkel, but I totally agree with her decision to help, instead of looking the other way and letting these people die. It is embarrassing how long so many in charge have done so and still do.

Some years ago I stood on the ruins of Fort Douaumont on the former battlefield of Verdun in France. My grandfather had served there as a medic in WW1 and was decorated with the Iron Cross. It felt kind of strange to be there, a bit spooky, because although grass has grown over it, the craters of the bombardment are still easily recognizable, making the area look like a green lunar landscape and it’s literally a graveyard soaked with blood. It’s a place that everybody should visit at least once, because it makes you understand what has been accomplished by the establishment of the European Union. As I said, my grandfather took part in the battle of Verdun, my father exchanged bullets with American GIs in WW2 (though according to what he told, they were rather trying to take cover most of the time), while I can hardly imagine shooting somebody else, just because he has a different nationality then I have (or whatever else it is, that make people different from each other). I feel very lucky that I can live in times of peace and I’m glad for being a European (that’s not an accomplishment, so I can’t really say to be proud of it, but you get the idea).

Europe over the years has become the continent of reason, common sense and humanistic values. It’s a beacon of the best qualities of mankind, a giant project of endless improvements and correction and failure is not an option. Angst ist immer ein schlechter Ratgeber (Fear is always a bad counsellor), so lets not listen to the egoists and those stupid right-wing idiots, who try to profit by propelling feelings of xenophobia and splitting the unity.

The refugees are a chance for a prosperous future, not a danger.
 
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3 million of migrants are expected in the European Union until 2017. In 2015 between one million and one million and a half regular migrants arrive in Europe. And 800,000 enter illegally, clandestinely in Europe. According to Germany, when the migrants obtain the refugee status, they have the permission to bring 4 to 8 members of their family (family reunification). And they make also of children on European ground. Many people say that Merkel is guided by a dangerous ideology. As revealed by the comments of the leader of Airbus, Thomas Enders, the mass immigration is desired to make, the downward pressure on salaries ... Merkel had declared, there is a few weeks when the migrants are employed, they are irreplaceable...
 
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These people obviously have no idea, that this money is not simply spilled into the gutter, but must be understood as investment and there seems to be no better way to invest money than in people. Basically that is what everybody does when they buy shares of companies; they invest money in the people that these companies consist of and their future accomplishments. And it is pretty much what I and many others did when we spent money for the Kickstarter to back Elite Dangerous, because we trusted in the ability of Sir David and his teams to come up with something truly amazing. When money is invested in these refugees, they certainly won't just put it on their bank accounts and be delighted by their newly acquired wealth, like perhaps some already rich investment bankers did, after billions had been spent to save their finance companies. They will spend it to pay the rent, for water and electricity and buying food, thereby generating profits for landlords, construction companies, janitor services, providers of electricity/water/communication, supermarkets and many others. And all of these are then going to pay their employees and taxes with that money.In the long run providing shelter for refugees will make Germany even richer and more powerful as it already is, because today’s refugees are going to be the future labour force

The European Commission said Thursday that three million migrants should arrive by 2017 in Europe, which would have a low impact for the growth ... With 30 million unemployed in Europe currently, and tens of millions of precarious workers, this is not surprising ...
 
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The European Commission said Thursday that three million migrants should arrive by 2017 in Europe, which would have a low impact for the growth ... With 30 million unemployed in Europe currently, and tens of millions of precarious workers, this is not surprising ...

And on the bright side, by accepting 3 million, we can wash our hands of responsibility for the countless millions who have been and are even now being drowned or enslaved in the attempt.

Nice!
 
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