Proven cheaters still in open.

Why fdev have refused to hammer down on combat loggers is beyond me.
I would suspect its pretty hard. First of all, how to prove that they are combat logging?
All they have to say "My client often crashing while in combat, you unlawfully revoked the game licence I've purchased, you sirs now have a lawsuit on your hands".

On proper server-based game such exploit wouldn't be an option and will be just suicide - because your ship will still remain on server (just sitting there motionless) - free pickings for your opponent. But not in "clever" ED P2P architecture (it clever only in sense it saves Frontier money on servers).
 
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Hey guys , I think shadowbanning is not enough, there are people who will just keep doing it once they are back, I think depending on the severity there should be ingame fines and in extreme cases you just reset their account so that they have to start over, if they keep cheating then a shadowban is issues for 1 month, if they do it again after this month, you lock their account , I don't see why blatant cheaters should use server resources, if they don't learn the lesson the first few times they get punished, permaban their account. FD should add this in their EULA, by buying the game users accept they can be banned for cheating and by doing so , ruining other people's experience.

Ohh apparently it's already there in EULA : 3C https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/
 
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The problem, as you presumably know perfectly well, is that if you do take action, that action is a slap on the wrist - a day or two on the naughty step. Serial miscreants have been boasting of getting away with it or getting insignificant actions against them on reddit for months. We see the same people doing it for ages, and nothing seems to happen (i.e. they are still there). On the kickstarter, there was an FAQ entry about griefing. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/description) It was quite long and detailed:

Hands up anyone who thinks FD have implemented that?

It would be easier to put them in the cheaters only server FOREVER after the second time caught red handed with hacks. Slapping them with a huge bounty is giving them free money... all they will do is let a friend kill them so it goes away. Big deal.

The amount of effort even though its small to even set the hack programs up is enough to justify an instaban for life. Its not like it accidentally installed itself on the computer and is playing the game for you while you are away.
 
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Read the cheat forums at some point. People do get banned, and sometimes not just for a few days either. There have been resports of people having their accounts suspended. The cheaters still tend to laught it off, some of them just buy new accounts and start over. Obviously some people have money to burn.

However, i'm in favour of a 2 or three strikes policy.

The only thing that is of concern was related to a post that appeared on reddit a while back, where someone said they got a message from FD stating they had been found cheating. The person protested their innocence on reddit and appeared sincere... but of course, we cannot know the truth of it.

So, imagine if you were incorrectly idenfitied by players and FD as a cheat. Instead of a few days ban you were given a lifetime ban. How would you feel? A few days or a week ban and you might be angry, but relieved when you could get back to playing. A lifetime ban... that would leave you raging hard.

Therefore a three strikes system allows for mistakes to be made and still gets the hardcore cheaters in the end.

What we found on our server was often a quiet word with a cheater was enough in at least 50% of cases. In second offenses we would penalize them (remove items, reduce experience, wipe gold, etc). This usually stopped most of the remainder. A third offense would be a permaban, which naturally puts an end to everything.

The aim isn't to drive away players who cheat, but to reform them if possible. Only get rid of them completely if they cannot be reformed.

People caught using the hack do indeed get banned, temp and perm both, and most of them simply buy another copy of the game and create a new account, simple as that, and something you can do with just about every single online game out there. Not a good business choice to permban someone's computer because they spent a few hundred dollars to get a hack to use in your game, better to just ban their account and let them have the option of buying your software AGAIN to play again, after all, you can always ban that account if they mess up again.

It IS quite easy and possible to permban people in such a manner that they can't just rebuy the game, doesn't really take much, just get hardware ID's from the system, and no I don't mean the Windows provided hardware ID, that's easy as hell to spoof, has been for years. I mean the actual hardware IDs that the BIOS has access to that can't be spoofed, a system used by Even Balance against anyone who tries to hack their database for the Punk Buster anti-cheat software. Hack creators have spent may thousands of dollars thanks to that system because they have to literally replace most of their computer's physical hardware like the cpu, vidcard, hard drives..just some of the hardware IDs that can be obtained. But that's not something that's done very often, as I said, bad business decision, most hack users today spent money to get the hack, they WILL rebuy the game to play it again if they get their account banned, so account bans are all that's done. There's more going on behind the scenes, such as watching anyone who's been banned previously if they return, after all, they know who you are, hardware IDs, as I said, very easy to get and track.... Let them spend more money, come back, and as long as they play nice, not a problem, but if they muck about, insta-permban. Seen it, many companies doing that these days, it's just good business.

As for false positives and people NOT using hacks getting banned...I worked for server hosting companies for years actively hunting hack users, and I've never seen a single case where someone busted for using a hack was NOT actually using a hack. This isn't like testing positive for dope because you ate poppy seed buns, there's no testing going on here, the proof of hack usage can't be 'accidently' duplicated on an innocent player's computer. If someone got busted for using hacks, they DID use hacks.

Recently, within the couple of years, top 3 players in CS:GO were busted for using hacks, all 3 denied it vehemently, swore they didn't use hacks, it was a mistake, people were out to get them, whatever. 1 guy, a year later, finally admitted he and the other 2 were actually using hacks. The other 2 still deny it, even though their friend stated they were all using them and they all knew it. I've busted people using hacks and they swore up and down it wasn't possible, they didn't do it, didn't even know there were hacks, etc, etc. One individual swore on his KID'S LIFE that he didn't use a hack, someone else must have logged in with his account and done it, he was hacked or something. I happened to have the guy recorded by a friend of mine while he was using the hack he didn't know anything about, bragging about how he was using the hack, no one could do anything about it, he'd just say someone hacked his account or something. Or the guy who swore his kid installed the hack and he didn't know anything about it. Only his kid's login was clean, it was the dad's account that used the hack, always late at night where the guy was located too, while HE was on playing with us and using TS so we knew it was HIM, not his kid. My friend, my neighbor, my kid, my spouse, someone hacked my account, aliens(not a joke, been tried), sunspots(also been tried) and on and on, the reasons why the person busted using the hack could not possibly have been using the hack are countless, and usually pretty damn stupid. There are no false positives when you are caught using a hack, proof is usually pretty simple, pretty solid and impossible to deny, such as screenshots of your screen while using said hack, images of your computer's system while the hack is running, things like that.

So the folks who get busted and deny everything, lying. Hacks aren't something you don't know are running, you don't accidently have them installed and running while you play the game they work with. Spent too many years hunting down and busting the people who use them, 1 in 20 will admit it, the other 19 never ever admit it, seen people at LAN parties deny using a hack we could all actually SEE on their monitor in front of us, so...
 
A quiz for you players.

  1. What do you hope to gain from knowing the “cheater” and their punishment?
  2. How long will whatever you derived from said gain last?
  3. Will “name and shame” stop cheaters?
  4. Is it really the cheaters (at this point) that are the problem?
1. For me personally, nothing. But, for some, numbers and punishment equates to being given peace of mind that something is being done.
2. That depends on the individual. If the "crime" does not equate to the "punishment", then some disgruntled players will never be satisfied.
3. A player may resort to cheating no matter whether they have been named or shamed or not. They are either oblivious or don't care (probably the latter), and will continue until the consequences are severely punished. Being allowed back onto the open servers after being "naughty" is no punishment at all. Seriously, if I cheated and was kicked off the servers, so what? I'll be allowed back, then I can start over. If I was threatened with a perma-ban ... well, serious wake-up call. I did spend £100 on PB after all!!
4. I don't think it's the cheaters that is the problem. The problem is that some players think cheating is rife throughout ED when it clearly isn't. It's unfortunate that some have been exposed to cheating, so therefore the consequences to the cheater are important to those who've come across it.

At the end of the day there are tools for players to block and report cheats. Unfortunately for FD, because there's no statistics regarding cheats being caught and the consequences, they look as though they're being weak. Also, if it's important for FD that the BGS isn't affected by nefarious activity, then give cheaters a good hiding, we don't need them here.
 
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Sorry for asking, but how do you cheat in Elite Dangerous ??
Doesn't the server decide if your account or your ship is invincible ?
Sorry for the ignorance.
 
Sorry for asking, but how do you cheat in Elite Dangerous ??
Doesn't the server decide if your account or your ship is invincible ?
Sorry for the ignorance.

Persistent states, such as your credit balance, your ship and loadout, your faction rep etc, all are stored on the "server" - I'll explain why I put that in quotes in a sec. Instances of in-game action however, are mostly P2P - the first player into a new instance is that instances "master" and handles things like spawning NPCs etc, other players connecting to that instance connect to each other and to the "master" to get that info. If the "master" leaves, another player takes over that role until the last player leaves and the instance is deleted. Because of the P2P nature of this architecture it is quite possible to hack your own game client to - for example - not honestly report damage your ship receives to the "server", not expend ammo when firing, send a disconnect rather than sending "I'm dead", things like that.

There ARE methods FD can (and, in some cases probably have) implement to combat this. If there's another cmdr in the instance and their unhacked game client sees something not quite kosher with how another client is behaving they can set off an alarm. If one cmdrs client says "I hit this guy with x rounds of multicannon fire for y damage" and the other says "I got z damage from cmdr whoever" then FD will know WHEN cheating is occurring, they just wont - from a single report - know who it was. Was it cmdr A over-reporting the damage they dished out or cmdr B under-reporting the damage they received. Either way, the guy with the hacked client wins. That time. If the same cmdr shows the same discrepancy multiple times, though, they got him. Their telemetry is extensive, but it's not totally foolproof. Cheaters can still function. Sooner or later though, they are very likely to get caught.

As for why I put "server" in quotes.. it's because in a very real sense there isn't one. There is a data service that tracks authentication and your own assets. There is a matchmaking service that pairs you with other players in instances depending on the play mode you and those others have selected and a host of other factors like network health. But, unlike other multiplayer environments, with the architecture I just described there really isnt a "server" at the center of the spiderweb.
 
Thanks for your explanation DaveB.
I think I understand now.
I probably spent too many years in games like WoW extensively equipping my casters with off-hand flowers.
I gather in massively multiplayers games the SERVER actually does all the deciding.
 
g.eoff
Well this is not a solution. You are missing out Cmdr.
Open play is Elite. Mobius - well it's like solo. .

Sorry, bull...

Solo is Elite. Don't believe me, try playing the original Elite as an Open, multiplayer game.

And your myopic definition of private groups is rather disturbing.

Seems cheaters are attracted to Open, more than any where else. I wonder why?
 
Sorry, bull...

Solo is Elite. Don't believe me, try playing the original Elite as an Open, multiplayer game.

And your myopic definition of private groups is rather disturbing.

Seems cheaters are attracted to Open, more than any where else. I wonder why?

I believe as in the real world there are gods that peeps believe in.......perhaps some of these players want to play the god figure in the universe?...I know it wont work like that and peeps would get mad...but I think that's what people want to do.....they want to be known as invincible entitys that you don't mess with..

lets face it if a proper organised hacking group decided to go open and take out the other groups,well it wouldn't be hard at all...they could be there for good use like blowing away griefers or other annoying player groups

you cant kill what cant be killed...
you cant see a invisible enemy..

im surprised it has not happened yet.....and I think a lot of you would be surprised the amount of players out there using this.

not surprised myself though..
 
As many stated before, wouldn't a permanent shadowban be efficient enough? If a cmdr is a proven cheater and FD is sure of it, why bother issuing formal warnings? Maybe one, just for the sake of it, then shadowban them *without* notification. For good. Let him/her realizes he/she has been shadowbanned and either stay that way or buy a new licence.

The important part is the lack of notification, because it may take a bit more time to the cheater to understand what happened, and most importantly, it deprives them of the thrill of being a troll: if FD show they don't give them much importance and bin them like they're nothing, some of them might derive far less pleasure in trying to break a set of rules.

The same goes for us players. If we make our best to ignore them and simply report them, we'll probably see they're not that much of a problem, in fact.
 
For the original opening of this Thread:
.
The option for banning a Player permanently or even temporarly is unfortunatly not such an easy decision for a Publisher.
There are legal Terms connected to your sale of your Software. And unless monetary damage is done in any way, a Game Hoster will have a hard time banning a Player.
Why ? Because especially in a Multiplayer Game, banning a Player reduces the Features/Content of the Software he sold, which on the other hand would enable the buyer for a refund.
Yes there are statements in the Software's EULA that are in favour of the Publisher to put the rights on his side, but there are most likely national trading Laws that superceed these rights (which means the case is different depending on the Country where the Software was sold).
.
So unless a Cheater actually does monetary damage in any way, a Publisher will most likely frown from banning the player.
Ask yourself, what would you do:
You caught someone cheating,
Option A: You do nothing, maybe giving him/her a warning. The player will stay in the game.
Option B: You ban the player, the player files a complaint, that the Software is not working in full Content, you have to refund the Software, the player uses this money to buy a new copy and is back in the game. Same ending, just a lot of trouble on your side, which made you actually loose money (for paying the guy to handle all the trouble)
.
So a Publisher will thoughtfully decide whether or not to use bans.
Example1:
Someone "cheats" to help just him/herself not to die in Game -> Yes it's ugly, yes it's stupid, yes it's unfair, but this player is not harming anyone and will most likely stay in the game.
Example2:
Same someone uses "cheating" to hunt down Players and play EvilOverlord in the Game -> As soon as Frontier has to dispatch someone to do some work, just to give all the victims back their ingame property they lost because of the "cheater", then there is monetary damage done (they have to pay this guy to fix all the accounts) and this "cheater" would go spiraling off the game for good (at least until he/she buys a new Copy).
But even that might be in question when it comes to legal terms if digital content can actually lead to monetary damage.
I guess you all know the story of some poor guy who tried to sue a "friend" because this "friend" sold all his WoW gear on ebay for a few hundred bucks. He failed in court.
.
Conclusion: Many cheaters will not face a ban.
But there is a third option for the publisher which I am very certain is the way Frontier is going: Track all cheaters, find out how they are doing this and find a way to prevent it in the future.
And if it's possible not just find a way to prevent it, but make it backfire (only an Option if you are sure you will not hit innocents).
Aka: You have been caught cheating, you have been warned, you ignored it, you kept cheating - welcome to your new starting Sidewinder and 1000 Cr of pocketmoney, oh and all your archivements are gone as well. Try again, fair and square.
.
.
Oh, one last thing:
No Game Hoster bans IP-addresses ! So stop demanding it (it just shows that you are lacking the knowledge how internet networking actually works).
Why not ? Because 99.99% of the Players do not own their used IP-Address, so banning them would interfere with that player's Internet Service Provider and they will tell you something about interfering with and blacklisting their property.
.
.
Cheers
Nuit
 
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FD need the customers...yeah a few might get made example of but we aint dealing with a games company of high financial status here....they need all the customers they can get now and in the future.

imagine if a hacker who had bought horizons and he gets banned before its out....are FD gonna lose his money on horizons?....yes because a refund will be claimed...so they lose a customer and that extra money for dlc stuff...

there here to make money sadly.....gone are the days when its done for the love of computer games
 
FD need the customers...yeah a few might get made example of but we aint dealing with a games company of high financial status here....they need all the customers they can get now and in the future.

imagine if a hacker who had bought horizons and he gets banned before its out....are FD gonna lose his money on horizons?....yes because a refund will be claimed...so they lose a customer and that extra money for dlc stuff...

there here to make money sadly.....gone are the days when its done for the love of computer games

If banning cheaters from the game would have such a big effect on FDs success as you suggest, we'd really be in trouble.

I take the following statement for the truth, though:

For the record, cheating in open isn't as widespread as what some have said in the past. In fact, it's a rather small subset of players feeling the need to take advantage of exploits, hacking the game client, and performing malicious actions in the game world.

So, FD isn't loosing a lot, just a few "customers", by banning cheaters, no need to worry about money there.

Ignoring those few cheaters and letting them roam free has much worse ramifications for the rest of the community than losing a handful of clowns noone will miss.
 
For the original opening of this Thread:
.
The option for banning a Player permanently or even temporarly is unfortunatly not such an easy decision for a Publisher.
There are legal Terms connected to your sale of your Software. And unless no monetary damage is done in any way, a Game Hoster will have a hard time banning a Player.
Why ? Because especially in a Multiplayer Game, banning a Player reduces the Features/Content of the Software he sold, which on the other hand would enable the buyer for a refund.
Yes there are statements in the Software's EULA that are in favour of the Publisher to put the rights on his side, but there are most likely national trading Laws that superceed these rights (which means the case is different depending on the Country where the Software was sold).
.
So unless a Cheater actually does monetary damage in any way, a Publisher will most likely frown from banning the player.
Ask yourself, what would you do:
You caught someone cheating,
Option A: You do nothing, maybe giving him/her a warning. He/she will stay in the game.
Option B: You ban the playerr, the player files a complaint, that the Software is not working in full Content, you have to refund the Software, the player uses this money to buy a new copy and is back in the game. Same ending, just a lot of trouble on your side, which made you actually loose money (for paying the guy to handle all the trouble)
.
So a Publisher will thoughtfully decide whether or not to use bans.
Example1:
Someone "cheats" to help just him/herself not to die in Game -> Yes it's ugly, yes it's stupid, yes it's unfair, but this player is not harming anyone and will most likely stay in the game.
Example2:
Same someone uses "cheating" to hunt down Players and play EvilOverlord in the Game -> As soon as Frontier has to dispatch someone to do some work, just to give all the victims back their ingame property they lost because of the "cheater", then there is monetary damage done (they have to pay this guy to fix all the accounts) and this "cheater" would go spiraling off the game for good (at least until he/she buys a new Copy).
.
Conclusion: Many cheaters will not face a ban.
But there is a third option for the publisher which I am very certain is the way Frontier is going: Track all cheaters, find out how they are doing this and find a way to prevent it in the future.
And if it's possible not just find a way to prevent it, but make it backfire (only an Option if you are sure you will not hit innocents).
Aka: You have been caught cheating, you have been warned, you ignored it, you kept cheating - welcome to your new starting Sidewinder and 1000 Cr of pocketmoney, oh and all your archivements are gone as well. Try again, fair and square.
.
.
Oh, one last thing:
No Game Hoster bans IP-addresses ! So stop demanding it (it just shows that you are lacking the knowledge how internet networking actually works).
Why not ? Because 99.99% of the Players do not own their used IP-Address, so banning them would interfere with that player's Internet Service Provider and they will tell you something about interfering with and blacklisting their property.
.
.
Cheers
Nuit


Barrack room lawyers ... should stay in the barrack room

ty
 

MAC Address blocking, which is what you're talking about is simple to get around. Most routers allow for MAC address cloning. Ban my machine and all I have to do is change the MAC address being broadcast from the router and I'm able to play again looking like a different user. All I need to do is spend buttons on the game and hey presto... ganking resumes. Not that I do this as ganking is what drove me to solo in the first place. The only cheats in my game are AI :D
 
why are some of you so against this?....its never bothered me,been gaming for 30 years...this stuff has always been about.
for every positive coder there is a negative one..

are some of you against game genies being used on megadrives ect? lol

cheats and codes have been around for years....its just that these days we have to go through all these man made rules..EULAS ect.....as a gamer i dont read that stuff...it doesnt bother me,if i pay for a game then i will do what i want in my own home whilst playing it....

the wrong thing here is idiots going into multiplayer enviroments.....but still nothing that can be done...even punkbuster has started to be worked around....it is one big ongoing vicious circle as far as im concerned....just worry about your own gaming enjoyment and not what others are doing..

if you go round in real world sticking noses into peeps affairs then expect someone to grab you by the nose
 
Many wont like my solution... 3 Strikes and your out.. Meaning If you are found cheating (by the devs) 3 times, then you are banned for life. No refund, no nothing. Your account is closed. Your IP recorded and blocked.

I came across a cheater the other day. hull went down to 3% and just sat there... But I did manage to disable their Powerplant then engines, until he logged off..

Thats not how consumer law works in the UK exactly.
 
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