General / Off-Topic World refugee crisis

[Le-Betz]

Hi Patrick,

maybe you don't know, but after the war there were 12 million refugees from Eastern-Prussia and Upper Silesia to be intergrated (my dad being one of them), although the whole country lay in ruins. This is how Frankfurt am Main looked like back then:

Today this time of rebuilding is known as the Wirtschaftswunder (economical wonder). I remember how it was necessary to rebuild the totally bankrupt German Democratic Repuplic after the re-union 25 years ago. It had almost 17 million inhabitants and its economy was totally wrecked. I've been there and I saw the misery (and smelled it, you have no idea how Bitterfeld smelled back then, you could hardly breathe). Today the infrastructure in eastern Germany has been modernised and is often even better now then in many parts of western Germany.

It won't be easy and there will be lots of problems that have to be solved, but this country had to master much bigger challenges in its past. You can't deny that it succeeded pretty well so far.

 

[Le-Betz]

And on the bright side, by accepting 3 million, we can wash our hands of responsibility for the countless millions who have been and are even now being drowned or enslaved in the attempt.

Nice!

In the German criminal law there is the
§323c - Non-assistance of a person in danger.
Who does not help in cases of disaster or general danger or emergency, although this is necessary and reasonable under the circumstances, especially without endangering himself and without violation of other important duties, will be punished by imprisonment of up to one year or monetary penalty.
(difficult to translate that bureaucratic lingo)

Certainly there are equivalent laws in all other European countries. It's a shame that obviously nobody cares very much, when these emergencies happen outside of territorial boundaries.

 

[Surfinjo]

In the German criminal law there is the
§323c - Non-assistance of a person in danger.
Who does not help in cases of disaster or general danger or emergency, although this is necessary and reasonable under the circumstances, especially without endangering himself and without violation of other important duties, will be punished by imprisonment of up to one year or monetary penalty.
(difficult to translate that bureaucratic lingo)

Certainly there are equivalent laws in all other European countries. It's a shame that obviously nobody cares very much, when these emergencies happen outside of territorial boundaries.

I'm more thinking of the continuing efforts by our dear western governments to ensure that the reasons these people are prepared to risk their lives in this way, continue.

The portrayal, at least in the UK press of these people as opportunistic freeloaders, seeking to take advantage of our wonderful society at the expense of people here is sickening.

One problem that is only ever mentioned occasionally are the numbers who will arrive, nurturing their fury at the western governments, particularly ours here in the UK, for causing this mess in the first place. If I put myself in their shoes and had watched my home and neighbourhood being destoryed, my family and friends being killed, even drowned while we attempted to flee, all so a bunch of fat, stupid, ugly Europeans can continue to emulate whatever US car show they live in, I think I'd be nurturing some pretty dark ambitions myself.

 

[Le-Betz]

I know what you mean, there are these protests, mainly in Dresden and some other cities in eastern Germany i mentioned before. And i'm afraid that their opinions do spread. Merkels public-opinion poll values dropped dramatically after she decided to help. Never before she has been so unpopular.

Recently there was a talk-show about the refugee-crises on TV and I made the mistake to read the facebook-comments afterwards. It gave me the creeps.

I see no reason to be afraid of 2 or 3 million refugees coming here, but these stupid idiots with their eternally backwards (pre-1945) kind of thinking really scare the hell out of me.

Can't be any clearer on that, forums swear filter does not allow me.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Hi Patrick,

maybe you don't know, but after the war there were 12 million refugees from Eastern-Prussia and Upper Silesia to be intergrated (my dad being one of them), although the whole country lay in ruins. This is how Frankfurt am Main looked like back then:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...m_Main-Altstadt-Zerstoerung-Luftbild_1944.jpg

Today this time of rebuilding is known as the Wirtschaftswunder (economical wonder). I remember how it was necessary to rebuild the totally bankrupt German Democratic Repuplic after the re-union 25 years ago. It had almost 17 million inhabitants and its economy was totally wrecked. I've been there and I saw the misery (and smelled it, you have no idea how Bitterfeld smelled back then, you could hardly breathe). Today the infrastructure in eastern Germany has been modernised and is often even better now then in many parts of western Germany.

It won't be easy and there will be lots of problems that have to be solved, but this country had to master much bigger challenges in its past. You can't deny that it succeeded pretty well so far.

I know also that the reunification of Germany and the "reconstruction" of the East Germany was possible thanks to the billions of euros paid by the European countries. This reunification is not for the glory of the Germany alone. There are lots and lots of money of the European countries. Concerning the reconstruction after the war, do not forget that the Americans rebuilt the Germany with billions of dollars of investment. The Germany has no personal merit in all that you say. The Germany gives lessons to the whole of Europe but on what basis it builds its "prestige" and its "power" ? Volkswagen ? The football World Cup ? Unilateral decisions concerning the migrants and the visas for the Turks ? And the negotiations of accession for the entry of Turkey in Europe ?
The Germany would do well to calm down ...

 

[Le-Betz]

Well, you got me, ... partially.

It was indeed large amounts of American dollars that helped to rebuild Germany after the war. Still it was necessary to provide housing space to 12 million refugees in the burned out cities and it took quite a while to build that. Even today you can still see some of the ugly buildings that had to be erected quickly, like scars in the cityscapes of most German towns. I remember my father sometimes telling stories from that time, of him, his brother (my uncle, who was an extremly unpleasant person, to put it mildly) and two, sometimes three buddies living in a flat of about 20 square metres for three years, the first year with one wall missing. Everytime one of them managed to have sex under these circumstances it literally became a public orgy .

I am not so sure if you are right about the large amounts of money you mentioned coming from European countries to finance the reconstruction of eastern Germany. Maybe you know more than me about that, but I doubt it.

There was a special tax introduced back then to do so, the so called Solidaritätszuschlag (solidarity addition) or short Soli. Officially it was introduced in 1991 to pay Germany's share of the costs of the second gulf war (which was 15-20% of the total costs) and should originally be limited to one year. That timespan was regularly extended with the justification of additional demand to support the countries of middle-, south-. and eastern Europe. In addition to that came the demand for additional tasks in the new federal states. With the extension in 1995 the costs of the re-unification became the main reason.

Here is the part from the german Wikipedia about that (sorry, but there is no english version, i tried to translate it):

Solidaritätszuschlag
Geschichte
Deutschland hatte im Zweiten Golfkrieg (Januar-März 1991) etwa 15–20 % der Kosten = 16,9 Milliarden DM übernommen. Der Gesetzentwurf der Regierungsfraktionen vom 11. März 1991 sollte 22 Milliarden DM aus dem auf ein Jahr befristeten Solidaritätszuschlag erbringen. Er wurde so begründet: "Mehrbelastungen ergeben sich nicht nur aus dem Konflikt am Golf... sondern auch für die Unterstützung der Länder in Mittel-, Ost- und Südeuropa... Hinzu kommen zusätzliche Aufgaben in den neuen Bundesländern". Mit der Verkündung im Bundesgesetzblatt am 24. Juni 1991 erlangte er Gesetzeskraft. Bei den Verlängerungen ab 1995 wurden die Kosten der deutschen Einheit zur Begründung in den Vordergrund gesetzt.

This tax has never been disestablished, german taxpayers are still paying it and the amount of money raised by it, according to the newsmagazine Focus, is at approximately 200 billion €.

Today Germany is the biggest payer into the cash box of the EU from which subventions for many of the countries demands in middle-, south- and eastern Europe are still paid (you see a pattern here, don't you?).

 

[Surfinjo]

Solidarity surcharge story Germany had taken in the Second Gulf War (January-March 1991) about 15-20% of the cost = 16.9 billion DM. The bill of the government parties dated 11 March 1991 should provide DM 22 billion from fixed-term to one year solidarity surcharge. He was so well founded: "burdens arising not only from the conflict in the Gulf ... but also for the support of the countries of central, eastern and southern Europe ... There are also additional responsibilities in the new Länder". With the announcement in the Federal Gazette on 24 June 1991, he gained the force of law. In the renewals as of 1995 the cost of German reunification were set to justify to the fore.

This tax has never been disestablished, german taxpayers are still paying it and the amount of money raised by it, according to the newsmagazine Focus, is at approximately 200 billion €.

Today Germany is the biggest payer into the cash box of the EU from which subventions for many of the countries demands in middle-, south- and eastern Europe are still paid (you see a pattern here, don't you?).

Quite a few.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Well ...

I will not seek the confrontation with you. You are a commander in ED and the great family of the Elite. But let me point out that for me, the Germany is really not a extraordinary country, and its position as N° 1 in Europe is largely overestimated, in my eyes. The german public debt is abysmal as many countries in Europe. And the Germany have also many poor workers, and the precariousness is a reality in this country. You show me a picture of Frankfurt after the war and the prowess of the Germans to rebuild their country. But this photo of Frankfurt is the exact replica of the destruction of all Europe. And all the peoples of Europe have rebuilt their country. But this is the past. For the present and without try to be disagreeable, for me the Germany is absolutely not in many domains, a model and a reference. The ideological and irresponsible deliriums of Merkel gives a very bad image of the Germany in Europe. Why this reaction ? But just because I'm not German and the German culture is not mine. The model proposed by Germany is not interesting.

 

[Le-Betz]

Please forgive me if I gave you a wrong impression. I appreciate a good discussion, even so when it becomes a bit heated, but only as long as everyone involved remains conscious of the fact that it is ment to be an exchange of opinions in a friendly atmosphere.

Also I didn't post the old picture of my ruined hometown to make you or anybody else think that destruction of war in Germany back than had been much different then in other parts of the continent, it was merely to underline that this country has managed to meet much greater challenges than we are facing today under much more severe conditions than we find nowadays. I am convinced that we can succeed again and not only help millions of people in a very desperate sitiuation, not much different than what our ancestors had to deal with, but also can come out of this crises stronger and better. And it might be a fine example to other nations to follow, because I agree with you when you say 'Germany is really not an extraordinary country'. If this can be done in Germany, than people in every other country can do it, too.

But then again I can't agree with you fully, because I think that this country is indeed extraordinary, as any other country in the world is.

Again, Patrick, I highly respect you and your opinion, although I am not necessarily sharing it. I am very sorry if I made you feel otherwise, that was clearly not and has never been my intention. Mea Culpa.

 

[Patrick_68000]

No problem of course. It is the freedom of expression and the democracy. The essential thing is not to try to impose its ideas unilaterally, as does the Germany currently ... Fly safe ! Commander

 

[huwthomas]

In the 50s and 60s we had Italians coming here to make a living, in the 70s and 80s it were Turkish folks that came as Gastarbeiter (guest workers) or Fremdarbeiter (foreign workers).

This was very carefully controlled with an eye on the long-term consequences. I'm not saying this behaviour was fair, it is easy to make the case that it was not, but that is how it was.

Inflows of immigrants with non-German ancestry began in a serious way in the second half of the 1950s. In response to a labor shortage prompted by economic recovery, Germany signed a series of bilateral recruitment agreements, first with Italy in 1955, then with Spain (1960), Greece (1960), Turkey (1961), Portugal (1964), and Yugoslavia (1968).

The core of these agreements included the recruitment of Gastarbeiter (guest workers), almost exclusively in the industrial sector, for jobs that required few qualifications. Under the so-called rotation principle, mostly male migrants entered Germany for a period of one to two years and were then required to return home to make room for other guest workers. This policy had a double rationale: preventing settlement and exposing to industrial work the largest possible number of workers from sending countries. In 1960, the number of foreigners already stood at 686,000, or 1.2 percent of the total German population. At that point, the most important country of origin was Italy.

When money is invested in these refugees, they certainly won't just put it on their bank accounts and be delighted by their newly acquired wealth, like perhaps some already rich investment bankers did, after billions had been spent to save their finance companies. They will spend it to pay the rent, for water and electricity and buying food, thereby generating profits for landlords, construction companies, janitor services, providers of electricity/water/communication, supermarkets and many others. And all of these are then going to pay their employees and taxes with that money.

Any public spending would have that effect, so the effect is not in itself an argument in favour of one kind of spending over another.

In the long run providing shelter for refugees will make Germany even richer and more powerful as it already is, because today’s refugees are going to be the future labour force.

That's a better argument for justifying the spending, within Germany, if that's the German view. It's not really an argument for demanding that other EU countries take a bigger share, since (a) their demography and economic needs are not the same as Germany's and (b) they might take a different view of the likely outcome in any case.

The elephant in the room is cultural and political, not economic.


Update with relevant article from the Guardian today

Angela Merkel’s generous open-door policy towards people fleeing Syria’s civil war has been thrown into confusion after Berlin announced that the hundreds of thousands of Syrians entering Germany would not be granted asylum or refugee status. The announcement from the interior ministry on Friday showed panic at the top in Berlin, with the swiftly issued semi-denials only intensifying the sense of confusion and knee-jerk responses over refugees.

Syrians would only be allowed to enter Germany for one year, are barred from having family members join them, and would only enjoy “subsidiary protection” which limits their rights as refugees, the interior ministry announced.

Oddly enough that looks a lot like the "gastarbeiter" approach I referenced above. Perhaps Merkel's govt think they've bitten off more than can be hidden behind the barn door, or something

 

[Surfinjo]

For what's it's worth, I think Europe is a pretty amazing nation.

In about 250 years various Europeans have moved mankind from a creature relying upon wind, water and physical effort, into a creature with portable energy, light and heat where it chooses. A creature believing in the power of herbs, bleeding into one who understand the existence of and interaction of micro-organism, and is able to preform organ transplants.

More importantly, Europeans moved away from the traditional human practice of colonisation and slavery and choose to abolish both.

Quite astonishing really. One vary impressive people divided by something as vague and petty as language.

Even that, they are slowing dealing with as our French and German members here are demonstrating by actually having a difference of opinion in the same language!

 

[trader4u]

Exactly that...and the American militaristic Elite refuses to resolve the issues that have caused with their actions. Stays away and just watching..

Its all planned, those isil/are us's 'boots-on-the-ground'...they came into play, same time us did not get their war on syria,
(their navy armada was alleady on-route remember?)...with that fake chemical weapons false flag thing, because lavrov,
russia's fm minister made that destroy-chem-weapons-deal, with assad, witch he complied with, and therefor no more pretext for us intended regime change in syria, well not openly ofcourse.
that is when isis came magically into play, they do that sort of thing plenty times in the past, and its well documented.

there are some great documentairies out there, if on takes the time to invetigate, and make up their own minds:

http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-on-democracy

and another one:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/power-principle/

very disturbing material to watch sometimes, because it actually happened in the past, and it goes on even today
your normal msm media wont cover it, because, their mostly are bought and paid for, by us companies, who profit of war.
as are their presidents, who election campain is equally bought, to ensure their coöperation.
example:the koch brothers invested +800 million in the election campain of their chosen candidate, see where this is going?
its a sad world we live in today.

 

[Patrick_68000]

This was very carefully controlled with an eye on the long-term consequences. I'm not saying this behaviour was fair, it is easy to make the case that it was not, but that is how it was.

Any public spending would have that effect, so the effect is not in itself an argument in favour of one kind of spending over another.

That's a better argument for justifying the spending, within Germany, if that's the German view. It's not really an argument for demanding that other EU countries take a bigger share, since (a) their demography and economic needs are not the same as Germany's and (b) they might take a different view of the likely outcome in any case..

Very good argumentation with much lucidity

 

[Patrick_68000]

Update with relevant article from the Guardian today

A very good article. With a lot of lucidity. Merkel imagines to be the Empress of Europe. She is a dangerous person

 

[Le-Betz]

@huwthomas
You may correct me on details, but I read no general contradiction in your post to what I said. (Btw. the article about 'Immigration in Transition' is really interesting)

Update with relevant article from the Guardian today

Oddly enough that looks a lot like the "gastarbeiter" approach I referenced above. Perhaps Merkel's govt think they've bitten off more than can be hidden behind the barn door, or something

I suspect it's rather confusion than a plan behind that pronouncement of the Minister of the Interior. Politics in Germany is often quite complicated. The Federal system was designed to reproduce the situation that the country is extremely heterogeneous. Visitors are often very surprised how different in character the many provinces (the 16 federal states) are. Also it was inteded to not allow any person or party to gain to much power. For every decision it needs lots of compromises to be made, lots of talks, meetings, discussion...; if you know how complicated and time-consuming the process of decision finding is in the EU then you get the idea.

The discussion about the refugee situation has become quite emotional and as far as I remember it's not the first time that de Maizière announces some half-baked ideas without consultation with 'Mutti' Merkel. Some comments in the news even suspect this to be the prelude to a power struggle within the goverment.

About time for Mutti to put a foot down (I think that's the expression).

 

[huwthomas]

@huwthomas
You may correct me on details, but I read no general contradiction in your post to what I said. (Btw. the article about 'Immigration in Transition' is really interesting)

I'm not trying to contradict you -- maybe Germany will indeed prosper from what's happening now. My main point was that the success of the past "gastarbeiter" scheme doesn't support the argument either way, because it is in no way comparable to what is happening now.

 

[Patrick_68000]

maybe Germany will indeed prosper from what's happening now

The Germany ? You want to say the European Syria ?

 

[huwthomas]

I didn't say what value of "Maybe" I was using

 

[Surfinjo]

I'm not trying to contradict you -- maybe Germany will indeed prosper from what's happening now. My main point was that the success of the past "gastarbeiter" scheme doesn't support the argument either way, because it is in no way comparable to what is happening now.

It might.

But what will be the effects on Syria and the rest of the ME?

It's fine taking the best from these countries, but these countries need their bests.