Proposal Discussion Elite: Dangerous is a "fly by wire" flight sim?!

[Associat0r]

Apparently SC will be implementing a system that allows you a much higher velocity *unless* there are other ships in your vicinity. The in-game reason being your ship systems limit your velocity as potential combat/high-g manoeuvres would squish the weakling meatbag pilot.

ED has a system that allows much higher speeds on manual control even with other ships around.

 

[Tinman]

Apparently SC will be implementing a system that allows you a much higher velocity *unless* there are other ships in your vicinity. The in-game reason being your ship systems limit your velocity as potential combat/high-g manoeuvres would squish the weakling meatbag pilot.

I must admit I'd personally prefer a little more of a (less limited, higher possible velocity) FFE dynamic but there you go.

Of course, the game is only partway through alpha, so plenty of scope for tweaking as intra-system travel is added, and more testers appear in beta.

Actually, you just described "super-cruise". With this we will also be able to travel much faster than "normal" combat speeds. The difference is that in ED we will actually be put into a " super cruise instance" so that we can interact with other players in some form while traveling at these speeds (not combat though). We might for example be able to chase someone around a planet this way!

Edit: Aaaaaaand ninjad!

 

[laforge]

Rules of the flight control system

And what do you understand by this flight control system? What does it do?

 

[noodle]

Actually, you just described "super-cruise". With this we will also be able to travel much faster than "normal" combat speeds. The difference is that in ED we will actually be put into a " super cruise instance" so that we can interact with other players in some form while traveling at these speeds (not combat though). We might for example be able to chase someone around a planet this way!

Most of my issues around the lack of full Newtonian physics relate to how we'll interact with things other than spaceships. The FSD may well address a lot of those concerns, hence why I don't really feel able to draw any conclusions until seeing how it's implemented.

 

[Associat0r]

And what do you understand by this flight control system? What does it do?

It's a flight computer doing lots of things, like flight envelope protection and automatically emulating airplane-like behavior instead of doing it manually and yes FE2/FFE had airplane-like behavior too in "set speed" mode and you noticed it best when flying slowly.

 

[Tinman]

Most of my issues around the lack of full Newtonian physics relate to how we'll interact with things other than spaceships. The FSD may well address a lot of those concerns, hence why I don't really feel able to draw any conclusions until seeing how it's implemented.

Well, I'm hoping we'll see it in Alpha 4. So not to far off now!

 

[Rog]

Yes, the FSD looks like a good idea, but it's essentially outside of 'real' space. I totally understand the reasons why the devs have limited 'normal' velocity (multiplayer), but I'd personally have liked higher normal-space velocities with no other ships around - still with a limit though, hitting a micro-asteroid at super ludicrous speed would be 'problematic'.

 

[Associat0r]

Most of my issues around the lack of full Newtonian physics relate to how we'll interact with things other than spaceships. The FSD may well address a lot of those concerns, hence why I don't really feel able to draw any conclusions until seeing how it's implemented.

Supercruise flight control system uses constant acceleration and limits the responsiveness of your ship and your trajectory will be affected by gravity of celestial bodies.

 

[Associat0r]

Yes, the FSD looks like a good idea, but it's essentially outside of 'real' space. I totally understand the reasons why the devs have limited 'normal' velocity (multiplayer), but I'd personally have liked higher normal-space velocities with no other ships around - still with a limit though, hitting a micro-asteroid at super ludicrous speed would be 'problematic'.

I suspect its implementation still obeys newtons laws.

 

[laforge]

and automatically emulating airplane-like behavior instead of doing it manually

Well, Noodle gave you already a very plausible example that this doesnt qualify a game to be 'Newtonian'. Perhaps I should make clear what I understand under 'Newtonian' (and probably Noodle as well): A game in which it is possible to experience Newtons laws of motion without contstraining forces.

Especially this means free choice of your reference frame and the possibiltiy to turn off any sort of flight control assists. If you would include constraining forces into your definition, then you could qualify every game to be Newtonian. Such a definition would therefore not make sense.

 

[Associat0r]

Well, Noodle gave you already a very plausible example that this doesnt qualify a game to be 'Newtonian'. Perhaps I should make clear what I understand under 'Newtonian' (and probably Noodle as well): A game in which it is possible to experience Newtons laws of motion without contstraining forces.

Especially this means free choice of your reference frame and the possibiltiy to turn off any sort of flight control assists. If you would include constraining forces into your definition, then you could qualify every game to be Newtonian. Such a definition would therefore not make sense.

My definition makes perfect sense, since it is the definition of newtonian (remember newton has 3 laws) and nowhere does it state that it has to be unconstrained also gravity is a force too and you are constrained by it in FE2/FFE in addition to the very high top speed and angular motion constraints.

Space games are nothing special wrt newtonian physics as full 3D newtonian physics (rigid body dynamics not a simple FE2/FFE point mass) is commonly used by mainstream games for more than a decade now, so I hope we can let this myth die once and for all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The flaw with such an explanation is that it doesnt make sense in space. At best it would be near some space station maybe. But in all other situations you'd expect a free choice of your reference frame by which you measure your speed. Especially in uncharted systems.

While a speed limit may not make sense, simply having an imposed speed limit does not mean that the flight model is anything other than Newtonian.

Not in all situations. A very simple example is if you want to get into orbit around a moon (with no atmosphere) at a very low altitude. This very basic spaceflight maneuver would not require any time compression. For most other situations I agree that the FSD is the solution.

I agree the problems that a speed limit creates when trying to enter orbit around a planet / moon / etc. It will be interesting to see how Frontier deal with this when we get seamless planetary landings.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But you're able to. Speed limits in space are a game design decision. This has been stated quite clearly. The reasons for that are perfectly valid, but it does mean that fully Newtonian movement has been intentionally nerfed (same with yaw).

Imposing a speed limit and constraining rotational speed in yaw are both imposed limitations. The flight model is not nerfed. I agree that limits in certain performance characteristics of vessels have in some way nerfed potential vessel performance. Frontier have been clear that these imposed limitations are for gameplay reasons as well as (in the case of the speed limit) networking reasons.

 

[laforge]

My definition makes perfect sense, since it is the definition of newtonian

I do not understand this reasoning. You have not even gave me your definition. Is it what I have suspected in my previous post?

, also gravity is a force too

Gravity is not a constraining force. Perhaps I should make it more clear: To have the option to manual control the thrusters of your ship to experience Newtons laws of motion.

and you are constrained by it in FE2/FFE in addition to the very high top speed and angular motion constraints.

Of course every game has its boundaries. The point is how they become visible. If you want to cut hairs now in this manner: I said 'to experience Newtons laws of motion' in my previous post. For me the experience is fulfilled within sufficiently large (speed) boundaries. Definitively larger than what we have now.

 

[Associat0r]

@laforge
I linked you to the Wikipedia article of Newton's laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion and they refute all you just said and prove my point.

 

[Dejay]

@laforge
I linked you to the Wikipedia article of Newton's laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion and they refute all you just said and prove my point.

It's very simple:
1. You park your car above a planet
2. Turn off engines and power
3. If the speed you pick up is limited, it's not newtonian

You could also test it out in the beta, use afterburner to hit top afterburner speed, turn off engines, if you slow down, it's not newtonian physics.

 

[Associat0r]

You could also test it out in the beta, use afterburner to hit top afterburner speed, turn off engines, if you slow down, it's not newtonian physics.

The counterforce is applied by the flight control computer controlling the thrusters, you can clearly see the thrusters oscillate to keep it within the limit, so it's newtonian.

 

[noodle]

The counterforce is applied by the flight control computer controlling the thrusters, you can clearly see the thrusters oscillate to keep it within the limit, so it's newtonian.

So your ship slows you down to prevent you escaping a pursuer? You can call that Newtonian if you want, but I call it voodoo logic to explain the lack of fully Newtonian flight

 

[Associat0r]

So your ship slows you down to prevent you escaping a pursuer? You can call that Newtonian if you want, but I call it voodoo logic to explain the lack of fully Newtonian flight

It's a lack of common sense engineering wrt flight control systems, not a lack of newtonian flight (terminology)

 

[Zieman]

So your ship slows you down to prevent you escaping a pursuer? You can call that Newtonian if you want, but I call it voodoo logic to explain the lack of fully Newtonian flight

Apples and oranges. The game engine simulates Newtonian physics to a degree, only the devs know how accurately. IIRC Sandro or Michael or Mike once commented that the underlying physics are Newtonian, but some of the forces applied gain a magical boost in certain circumstances. At the same time, the ship's computer (or the game) doesn't allow players full Newtonian freedom. Yes, it feels stupid to slow down from boost-speed with Flight Assist and Engines presumably off, but if that slowdown is caused by ship's thrusters firing, the slowdown isn't an example of physics being non-Newtonian.

Phwew.

Ooowww, I've said the 'N' word several times, am I now doomed to eternal free fall?