Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

Do you want a Open PvE

  • Yes, I want a Open PvE

    Votes: 54 51.4%
  • No, I don't want a Open PvE

    Votes: 49 46.7%
  • I want only Open PvE and PvP only in groups

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    105
  • Poll closed .
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
It does...

Whoa. I've got no problem with that (as I'm pretty sure you know). All I'm saying is:

Someone has a reason (a) to choose Solo because of reasons (b).

I was talking more about reason (a), not so much reason (b). Reason (a) was that they needed/wanted to avoid players because of reason (b). I'm really struggling to think of a way to explain it better.
 
....was that they needed/wanted to avoid players because ....

That is where you're tripping yourself up.

Accusations of "cowardice" / "hiding" / "avoiding" have been thrown around a lot here.
All 3 terms have been used, and are now, automatically viewed as being offensive.

Same goes for "grief" (and all of its variations), "exploit", "cheat" and so on.

And keep in mind, not wanting to play with someone, is not the same as "avoiding" them.
 
That is where you're tripping yourself up.

Accusations of "cowardice" / "hiding" / "avoiding" have been thrown around a lot here.
All 3 terms have been used, and are now, automatically viewed as being offensive.

Same goes for "grief" (and all of its variations), "exploit", "cheat" and so on.

And keep in mind, not wanting to play with someone, is not the same as "avoiding" them.

"Avoid"? That's what the problem is?! And I thought I was being pedantic.

What's the official, non-offensive, word to use then? Block? Bar? Prevent? Cut off?

Surely a reasonable person could deduce from the context of my comments that I was not trying to be offensive? For clarity, in my previous comments, "avoid" = "choose not to encounter in the current gaming session for whatever reason(s) they choose without the need to justify said reason(s) to anyone else."
 
Surely a reasonable person .....

Would a reasonable person expect a game developer to scrap the core game they promised, and got backers for on a whim?

There is absolutely nothing "reasonable" about demanding the BGS be split or the modes locked out from each other.
Not when FD provided all the information 3 years ago and have reiterated it several times since then.
(I know that is not what you are doing - just pointing out this thread has never been about "reasonable people" asking for something)
 
Hey, give Khelder a break guys... Biscuits and Guinness!!! (But not in the same glass!)

I see what you are getting at Khelder. "As you adequately put it, the problem is choice."

We know that there is a freely given choice to play in either open, as part of a group of friends, or by yourself.

"But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"
"Because you didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand *why* you made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now."

You see, why a person makes such a choice is not always visible to the person, or those around him. "We can never see past the choices we don't understand."

But the best is left to last:

"Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without."

Sometimes people choose open, because people with power make that choice for them. Open was a killing ground when the game was released. It's not so much now, as people have become bored and moved on to the next best ganking grounds, whatever they are. But that experience, and the stories that were put on this forum (remember, words are power!!) will forever change how some people see open.
 
I'm going to assume that the intent wasn't actually to make Private Groups (i.e. collections of players that require administration). That really wouldn't make a lot of sense from FD's point of view. That leaves separating Open Mode into Open PvE Mode and Open PvP Mode. Which is effectively the "add an Open PvE mode" argument. Even if FD did want to go down that path, it still doesn't resolve the "I can't challenge them face-to-face" issue.

Actually, private groups were the intent from the start. Open, at first, was even described merely as a default group everyone would be a part of:
'We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will, though it will be possible to be banned from groups due to antisocial behaviour, and you will only meet others in that group.'
(In the FAQ, "How does multiplayer work?")

So, from that point of view, removing the Open "mode" and creating an Open "group" in its place would be merely going back to how they system was originally described.

By the way, David Braben specifically mentioned in interviews that his game would allow PvE groups:
'Well, the discussions have come up already. We have this concept of groups where you can join a group which doesn't allow or does allow it on the user choice.'
(The "it" in that sentence is PvP. Go to 6:01 in the video.)

In any case players were never supposed to be able to force their way into another player's game. "I can't challenge them face-to-face" isn't an issue, it's a (very welcome) feature, one even deemed as essential for many players that did purchase the game. This is where I would say that the person purchased the wrong game; they got a game where being able to determine who we will play with — and, thus, being able to effortlessly avoid other players — is at the core of the game's definition of multiplayer, if that is unacceptable to the player then he clearly got the wrong game.

The instancing system will still try its best to connect players in Open.
Huh, no. Preserving the gameplay quality — for example, by not allowing players with too high mutual latency to meet — comes before connecting players. Between allowing you to defend against an opponent or keeping lag low, the game goes for keeping lag low.

Which is why it's so easy to manipulate the matchmaking into never meeting anyone else without outright blocking them. Though, of course, if the game didn't prioritize lag-free gameplay it would result in large amounts of lag and rubber-banding in lots of, perhaps even most, PvP situations, so the current arrangement is better than the game doing its best to connect players.

You miss the point. It doesn't seem to be the guarantee of a specific player being able to "get" another specific player. It is about a player affecting the BGS in a particular way facing the risk/possibility/whatever of facing a player affecting the BGS in the opposite manner (counter attack).

Which would be fine and dandy in a PvP game focused on player conflict. It's not fine at all in a game that is both supposed to be mainly about PvE and promised players they would be able to determine who they meet.

I didn't even know there was a hi-res screenshot. Alt-F10 was it? What's the deal with it not working in Open??
Yep, alt-F10.

It pauses the game for a couple of seconds, so I think it'll lag as bricks in Open.

Lag on demand + the distributed nature of the game instance "servers" = plenty of ways to annoy other players or even exploit.

Plus, it's possible to tweak things to make the screenshot saving take far more than a couple seconds. Such as, like Robert said, directing the screenshots folder to a slow device. And since it's a game function, without the use of anything external, Frontier wouldn't be able to do anything about it apart from removing the functionality.

So, they did that, removed the feature, but only for Open; lag on demand doesn't cause issues or enable exploits in Solo, after all.
 
"Playing Solo", dunno why there has to be any other wording for playing solo. Its playing solo.
2 words: Encounteristically challenged.
Hey, give Khelder a break guys... Biscuits and Guinness!!! (But not in the same glass!)

I see what you are getting at Khelder. "As you adequately put it, the problem is choice."
...
Sometimes people choose open, because people with power make that choice for them. Open was a killing ground when the game was released. It's not so much now, as people have become bored and moved on to the next best ganking grounds, whatever they are. But that experience, and the stories that were put on this forum (remember, words are power!!) will forever change how some people see open.

(Thank you, anthonycsheehy. I got a bit lost in your response though. :))

Let's make another run at this and tackle the word "reason". There may be multiple reasons why somebody would choose something. There may be emotional/technical/ethical/whatever reasons that build up certain criteria. Then there is a reason for making a choice that will fulfil that criteria.

Let's say we're driving down the road. The road comes to a fork and you must choose to turn left or to turn right. You choose to turn right because that direction will take you to the destination you are travelling to. For the purposes of the point I was trying to make, it doesn't matter to me what the reason for you travelling to that particular destination is. That destination was the criteria that needed to be met in your choice of direction. When you chose to turn right, the reason you did that was to reach that destination.

So, now, at some particular time a player has a desire/need/motivation/whatever to play Elite without encounters with other players (or, if we want to include groups now, with a specific set of friends). That is the criteria. I don't need to know why that criteria was chosen. It doesn't need to be justified. But the reason you would choose Solo (or a group) is to fulfil that particular criteria.

It's really quite simple and logical. There's no reason for anyone to get upset about that.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
So, now, at some particular time a player has a desire/need/motivation/whatever to play Elite without encounters with other players (or, if we want to include groups now, with a specific set of friends). That is the criteria. I don't need to know why that criteria was chosen. It doesn't need to be justified. But the reason you would choose Solo (or a group) is to fulfil that particular criteria.

.... which is exactly what the three game modes (and mode mobility) have been intended for since the outset.
 
Actually, private groups were the intent from the start. Open, at first, was even described merely as a default group everyone would be a part of:
'We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will, though it will be possible to be banned from groups due to antisocial behaviour, and you will only meet others in that group.'
(In the FAQ, "How does multiplayer work?")

So, from that point of view, removing the Open "mode" and creating an Open "group" in its place would be merely going back to how they system was originally described.

I don't think by saying "group 'All'", that he meant that "All" or "Open" would be a Private Group. A Private Group requires permission to join. Either that would be incredibly awkward if you purchased a game and then had to request permission to play it, or you would get an automatic membership to that group and it no longer is really a Private Group. That's what I meant by it not making sense.

Huh, no. Preserving the gameplay quality — for example, by not allowing players with too high mutual latency to meet — comes before connecting players. Between allowing you to defend against an opponent or keeping lag low, the game goes for keeping lag low.

Which is why it's so easy to manipulate the matchmaking into never meeting anyone else without outright blocking them. Though, of course, if the game didn't prioritize lag-free gameplay it would result in large amounts of lag and rubber-banding in lots of, perhaps even most, PvP situations, so the current arrangement is better than the game doing its best to connect players.

By "try its best", I mean try its best given network constraints. The only thing that will prevent matchup is network latency and/or hard limit on instance population.
 
Circles, circles!

I've just found what I'd like to put forward as the official theme song for this thread;

[video=youtube;pmUKmW4BYXM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmUKmW4BYXM[/video]

Providing others agree, I think this needs adding to all S.O.G. Megathreads in their opening posts.

:D
 
Actually, private groups were the intent from the start. Open, at first, was even described merely as a default group everyone would be a part of:
'We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will, though it will be possible to be banned from groups due to antisocial behaviour, and you will only meet others in that group.'
(In the FAQ, "How does multiplayer work?")

So, from that point of view, removing the Open "mode" and creating an Open "group" in its place would be merely going back to how they system was originally described.

Thanks I never saw that before, I feel cheated now.

<snip>

Lag on demand + the distributed nature of the game instance "servers" = plenty of ways to annoy other players or even exploit.

Plus, it's possible to tweak things to make the screenshot saving take far more than a couple seconds. Such as, like Robert said, directing the screenshots folder to a slow device. And since it's a game function, without the use of anything external, Frontier wouldn't be able to do anything about it apart from removing the functionality.

So, they did that, removed the feature, but only for Open; lag on demand doesn't cause issues or enable exploits in Solo, after all.

I forgot all about that, thanks for the reminder.

Yet another example of FD having to fix exploits that only happen in open, station ramming, tricking PD to attack the station, killing people inside stations etc.

I doubt any solo players had a problem with any of it. Groups? nah, we asked Mobius a while back and I think the kick count was ~ 4 in over a year, and half of that was a planned incursion. Other private groups, highly unlikely as they are invite only. So that leaves open.

Mmmmm, I am starting to think of open as a bit of a parasite on the rest of the game, now don't get me wrong I enjoy the odd rares run in my type6 in open, if I get pirated then that's cool, RP pirate even better, if I get blown up for shigles then that's the chance I took and I am fine with it.

I am just thinking how much more could we have if FD didn't have to deal with all these issues, rather than fixing ramming etc they could have...

Open PVP, its the wild west, you can get rammed on the pad, your PD get you killed, its called "dangerous" for a reason (lol I do realise its not, but I could't help myself, I heard it so many times I am starting to believe it ;))

Open PVE, no CMDR damage from weapons or ramming etc.

I will lump solo and groups together, most people do. No change, no problems that I can see, I can't recall anyone complaining (well other then me), calling for a buff to solo to balance out wing trading bonuses, and the fact that groups and open are easy mode as people can fly in wings ;):D.
 
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