General / Off-Topic I am losing my mind over is
- Thread starter Cargobane
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Assad is Russia's last stable ally in the region, so Russia are trying to prop him up while the USA are trying to take him down. While all parties see a ISIS as a serious problem it is not, contrary to what you might see in the news, the main reason for the superpowers to get involved in this. Both Russia a nd the west are playing a stupid game of risk that other people are dying for, again.
Whoever's side you find yourself on there is no escaping the fact that FSA forces parachuting pilots in defiance of Geneva convention. We shouldn't be giving them weapons at the very least.
Whoever's side you find yourself on there is no escaping the fact that FSA forces parachuting pilots in defiance of Geneva convention. We shouldn't be giving them weapons at the very least.
It was yesterday and it was the day after we (Russia) bombed the crap out of oil production, storage and processing facilities which isis use to fill up those tens of thousands of oil trucks that they deliver every day into Turkey (and then turks resell it to ''good'' people everywhere):
[video=youtube_share;lQZvNCRpdnQ]https://youtu.be/lQZvNCRpdnQ[/video]
It's just a warning to us (Russia) by USA, so that we can do whatever in Syria unless we interfere with isis oil - if we do - bad things will happen. They did it with the hands of their NATO puppets as usual
Here's how our military department officially sees this situation (turn on captions for English):
[video=youtube_share;KGlJFoIBKQw]https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw[/video]
And common folks now want to make the straight between Black and Mediterranean sea a lot wider
UPD: at least we managed to save one of the pilots (with help of Syrian spetsnaz), but lost a chopper and one marine to enemy fire in the process (which shows that there was an ambush prepared there way before Su24 was shot down)
[video=youtube_share;lQZvNCRpdnQ]https://youtu.be/lQZvNCRpdnQ[/video]
It's just a warning to us (Russia) by USA, so that we can do whatever in Syria unless we interfere with isis oil - if we do - bad things will happen. They did it with the hands of their NATO puppets as usual
Here's how our military department officially sees this situation (turn on captions for English):
[video=youtube_share;KGlJFoIBKQw]https://youtu.be/KGlJFoIBKQw[/video]
And common folks now want to make the straight between Black and Mediterranean sea a lot wider
UPD: at least we managed to save one of the pilots (with help of Syrian spetsnaz), but lost a chopper and one marine to enemy fire in the process (which shows that there was an ambush prepared there way before Su24 was shot down)
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This is almost certainly, right on the button.
So many killed or displace. Europe being destabilised by tens of thousands of desperate refugees.
But hey, there's money to be made in the ME.
It really is quite extraordinary how utterly callous and evil our governments have become.
If you think about it - it's not our countries, it's only the USA/west . We(Russia) had friendly regimes in and around the region in Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Ukraine, Georgia for years after USSR was dismantled.
USA instigated bloody revolutions and if unsuccessful they waged war against those countries, killing their leaders and supporting terrorist groups activity there.
The balance have changed - now USA have very good footing in Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Egypt; and completely puppet (and very aggressively anti-Russian people) regimes in Ukraine, Georgia and Turkey; they somewhat worsened our relations with Iran.
And they got these countries in addition to their Pakistan, Afghanistan, Sauds and Israel they already had for years
What would happen to Russia if we back down - our last friendly countries Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan right next to our borders will have same revolutions and civilians massacre like all the other countries USA set their foot in. At the same time will get another USA/west sponsored terrorist uprising in our own Chechnya and other regions. Then, when we get properly weak, we will get atom bombed to dust by USA to prevent terrorism spreading to Europe and to prevent our atomic weapons falling into the hands of terrorists.
The only aggressor and killer through these last 30 years was and is USA. Russia just can't back down, because otherwise we'll be annihilated
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I have said it before: Turkey are being childish and foolish and it is playing a very dangerous game. They were just looking for an excuse to attack the Russians, just to show that they can. They know that they have NATOs back up and think they can do what they like. Turkey only agreed to fight ISIS, if they could also fight the Kurds. Which the whole world has been saying no too. This whole thing is just wrong; in so many ways.
You're right in some regards, but wrong in others. Let me give you the recent history of what happened.
Back in 2010 a Tunisian street merchant by the name of Mohamed Bouazizi had his goods taken from him by the authorities, was slapped, spat in the face, and left in the street with nothing. Apparently this sort of thing tended to be the way the authories had been conducting themselves towards Mr Bouazizi for years, and he'd had enough. He set himself on fire in public. This captured the imagination of the Tunisian people who had, for years, been getting sick of Ben Ali government (which tended to get around 90% of the vote in Tunisian "elections"), and thus he became a symbol of someone willing to fight against the oppression of the corrupt institution of the government. A revolt occured as the Tunisians rebelled.
The rebellion against dictatorships spread from Tunisia as popular uprisings occurred across the Middle East and North Africa, in what would later be called the "Arab Spring". An attempt, by the people, to overthrow oppressive and tyrannical governments. In some cases (like Egypt) these uprisings were looked at with some resentment by the West because Western governments had spent a lot of time and resources propping up these dictators. In other cases (Syria) the Western governments responded with glee because they saw yet another opportunity to expand their powerbase in the region.
Syria became the biggest point of contention. Assad had absolutely no intention of going, and would stop the revolt in its tracks, or so he thought. With the exception Saudi Arabian leadership Assad is probably the worst the Middle East has to offer in terms of a willingness to destroy human life to keep power. He launched an absolutely brutal crackdown on protesters and anyone who was even suspected of having sympathies with the Arab spring. Thousands were killed and Sarin gas was used on ordinary people (Scishow episode on Sarin). This gave the West what they thought was a good excuse to move in and remove something that had been an obstacle to Western dominance in the region for decades.
Much of the Arab spring in Syria had fled or gone quiet, but some of the more militant types decided to take up arms. However the diverse ethnic makeup of the region meant there were (and still are) many different factions with many different ideas of what Syria should ultimately be. The USA, as usual in these situations, completely failed to understand this and started arming anyone at all who they thought might fight Assad (except, notably, the PKK). Among these groups was ISIS (the history of which goes back years, to before the invasion of Iraq), which was actually the same group who had been fighting the Americans in Iraq for years (fun factoid: Al-Zarqawi founded ISIS), as well as the FSA, STA, Jabhat Ansar al-Islam etc (the list is absolutely massive, and the only faction not receiving outside support is ISIS, odd how they're doing so well).
Assad was no longer just cracking down on protesters but instead had a bloody revolution on his hands, putting his army up against battle-hardened militias, many of whom had experience fighting the Americans in Iraq, and who now had, ironically, been armed by the same Americans. In a panic he turned to others for help.
Russia, determined to see their base in the Middle East (as well as their eyes and ears) remain safe, supplied him with weapons and equipment to fight back. This led to an escalation of the conflict as the USA decided to bomb certain targets to aid the rebels/terrorists in Syria. More weapons, munitions, and hardware ended up being delivered to all factions involved in the conflict as the stakes grew higher and higher.
So what started as a protest march degenerated into all out civil war with some of the most deadly and technologically advanced weaponry the world as ever seen. Roads, bridges, rail, power, gas, and water all became luxuries. Life was unlivable for most of Syrias millions of ordinary people. The statistics on this boggle the mind. 250,000 people kiled, less than half the population still live in the home they were in before the war started, and 4 million Syrians have fled the country entirely. The refugee crisis started as people tried to escape the fighting.
The refugee crisis, and the rather cowardly and inhuman response from it by both the East and West, is another topic entirely. But the general point is that what has happend has been the fault of almost everyone.
Russia is to blame for propping up the Assad government.
Assad is to blame for being such a terrible excuse for a human being.
Obama, Cameron, Bush, Blair etc are all to blame for playing their stupid game of Risk with the lives of people in other countries.
I personally am to blame because I haven't (so far) gone into the center of London and stood on the street, stopping traffic, refusing to move until our government stop being imperialist sociopaths, stop supplying people with weapons, and instead let refugees in and give them shelter and safety.
You are to blame for not doing likewise on the streets of Moscow.
In fact the only people who are not to blame are the ones who were just trying to live their lives in Syria, who found themselves at the center of a war they didn't start, which they didn't want, and which isn't even about them. This entire thing brings me to tears.
Russia has bloody hands in this too. While the Ukrainian power-grab by the USA was foolish Putins support for the Assad government has been unforgivable. What you should remember is that what Russia is doing is purely being done for Putin and his need for power - specifically to keep the Russian airbases and their naval base in Syria in allied hands. I actually believe that Putin cares about Russia and Russias people, but only because he considers them "his".
I understand your pride, and I understand how you must dislike the West right now. I myself am completely ashamed of much of what I see my government doing, not to mention the absurd rants and horrific ignorance some of my countrymen are giving on the situation. But that is all a part of the problem. But the only way this will get any better is if we stop with the "us and them" mentality. The entire concept of nationality and nation states, tribes, factions, is a major root cause of this.
We're all people, and we should try to do our best for other people, no matter where they come from, what the colour of their skin is, the name they give to their God (or the lack thereof), or whatever languages they speak. It is the only way out of this that doesn't involve genocide.
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FuzzySpider makes some good point but the reality is the situations have been exploited and manipulated by the west for their own advantages. Syria for example, the rebellion started there at the direct encouragement of the west who told Syrian opposition groups they would support them When the support never arrived, those groups turned to the Islamic extremists and their expertise.
The situation in Lybia is equally chaotic. Several gangs still vying for power, huge numbers killed or made homeless, poverty and insecurity. Not reported very much here because those people are not exactly white and their children are cute.
The Americans have manipulated the 9/11 thing to its fullest, destroying Afghanistan, Iraq, making Russia and Iran insecure, then knocking down numerous ME governments. It seems the only once left now are Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan and Israel.
The west seems to be setting Russia up for a major climb down. Made all the easier by the astonishing levels of corruption and traditional, tough guy thinking there.
I'm sorry to say all I can see so far from Russia is a major case of self pity. Sadly, while that was a major cash crop for two countries, it doesn't work everywhere and I doubt it will carry much weight for Russia. I wonder if the Russians have figured out why yet?
Fuzzy is a little too deep in the kool-aid.
Assad did not order Syria chemical weapons attack, says German press
Assad had been requesting, for months, for a special United Nations Chemical Weapons investigation team to come to Syria to check out earlier allegations that his government had used chemical weapons.
Syrian rebels used Sarin nerve gas, not Assad's regime: U.N. official
The entire 'Arab Spring' is a complete farce and the only thing happening in Syria is an INVASION and UNDECLARED WAR by NATO against the Syrian People.
A country that has not attacked anybody afaik.
It is amazing how easily the US-led 'conflation' can claim to be in the right when they are actively supporting a terrorist uprising in a peaceful sovereign nation.
And yet turn the cheek and claim they are protecting the sovereignty and borders of the ruthless neighbors who are not peaceful at all.
The US actually said the 'Rebels' have a right to defend themselves. But Syria doesn't. How two-faced is that?
Maybe someone should supply some the moderate rebels in America so they can take their country back from the blood-thirsty regime.
Assad did not order Syria chemical weapons attack, says German press
Assad had been requesting, for months, for a special United Nations Chemical Weapons investigation team to come to Syria to check out earlier allegations that his government had used chemical weapons.
Syrian rebels used Sarin nerve gas, not Assad's regime: U.N. official
The entire 'Arab Spring' is a complete farce and the only thing happening in Syria is an INVASION and UNDECLARED WAR by NATO against the Syrian People.
A country that has not attacked anybody afaik.
It is amazing how easily the US-led 'conflation' can claim to be in the right when they are actively supporting a terrorist uprising in a peaceful sovereign nation.
And yet turn the cheek and claim they are protecting the sovereignty and borders of the ruthless neighbors who are not peaceful at all.
The US actually said the 'Rebels' have a right to defend themselves. But Syria doesn't. How two-faced is that?
Maybe someone should supply some the moderate rebels in America so they can take their country back from the blood-thirsty regime.
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Ok Turkey are being total donkey's behinds by shooting down an aircraft that was, at best, crossing their territory for 17 seconds.
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Their actions have made the overall situation (best described as something rhyming with "fluster duck") much worse.
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I'm pretty sure, behind closed doors, they are getting a dressing down from the US and the rest of NATO, who really don't want to go to war with Russia just because Turkey couldn't keep it in their pants.
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Yes, the west has been extraordinarily inconsistent with the "Arab Spring", but bear in mind, this is unlikely to be a "western plot". Several dictators who the west would probably liked to have kept around because, although they were brutal SOBs, they were our brutal SOBs, have been replaced either by chaos or governments less favourable to the west.
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On the other hand, Russia hasn't played with a straight deck either. Just look at their weapon selection. Dumb bombs dropped from high altitude into urban areas. There is no way they are not causing massive collateral casualties. Russia has precision munitions but the are considerably more expensive.
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Then there has been the consistent breaching of Turkish airspace and the harassment (via targeting lock) of Turkish fighters on the Turkish side of the border. The Russians have been poking the Turks and now they've protesting when they've been bitten.
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The statement from the pilot is pretty much meaningless. Russia's history of saying one thing whilst clearly doing another is well documented (that's right those are local militias in eastern Ukraine all in the same uniform and suspiciously well drilled in using Russian tanks the Ukrainian army never had had and MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian ground attack plane trying to shoot down Putin and not a Russian supplied BUK missile system, and all the tweets from rebels claiming they downed a Ukrainian military plane were totally fake, but still deleted anyway).
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Lets not kid ourselves, the higher ups, on both sides, are engaged in a "willy waving" contest and as always it's the little people who pay the price.
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Their actions have made the overall situation (best described as something rhyming with "fluster duck") much worse.
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I'm pretty sure, behind closed doors, they are getting a dressing down from the US and the rest of NATO, who really don't want to go to war with Russia just because Turkey couldn't keep it in their pants.
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Yes, the west has been extraordinarily inconsistent with the "Arab Spring", but bear in mind, this is unlikely to be a "western plot". Several dictators who the west would probably liked to have kept around because, although they were brutal SOBs, they were our brutal SOBs, have been replaced either by chaos or governments less favourable to the west.
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On the other hand, Russia hasn't played with a straight deck either. Just look at their weapon selection. Dumb bombs dropped from high altitude into urban areas. There is no way they are not causing massive collateral casualties. Russia has precision munitions but the are considerably more expensive.
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Then there has been the consistent breaching of Turkish airspace and the harassment (via targeting lock) of Turkish fighters on the Turkish side of the border. The Russians have been poking the Turks and now they've protesting when they've been bitten.
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The statement from the pilot is pretty much meaningless. Russia's history of saying one thing whilst clearly doing another is well documented (that's right those are local militias in eastern Ukraine all in the same uniform and suspiciously well drilled in using Russian tanks the Ukrainian army never had had and MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian ground attack plane trying to shoot down Putin and not a Russian supplied BUK missile system, and all the tweets from rebels claiming they downed a Ukrainian military plane were totally fake, but still deleted anyway).
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Lets not kid ourselves, the higher ups, on both sides, are engaged in a "willy waving" contest and as always it's the little people who pay the price.
Been thinking on that very point. I've come up with 4 options.
1. Turkey decided to throw its weight around because it knew it has NATO to back it up. Not good at all.
2. Turkey was doing NATO bidding, NATO are now hiding behind the metaphorical bushes, too scared to own up.
3. This is part of the continuing NATO policy to manipulate the situation to create as much damage as possible and essentially beat the people of the ME into some sort of submission.
4. A deliberate attack by NATO on Russia to test the waters for further attacks. Perhaps the Americans have actually decided to take on Russia once and for all.
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5.Some one saw a plane got excited and fired accidentally
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6.The plane was Not in there country but they thought it was so shot it
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7.The plane WAS in their country and was shot down
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8.9.10.............
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I prefer too look at ALL possibilities rather then just the dramatic ones
point 1 - agreed. Pretty sure Turkey wouldn't have done this without knowing that NATO "had it's back".
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As for the other points, which essentially boil down to "NATO planned this", I'm going to invoke the doctrine of "never assume conspiracy when cork up will suffice".
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NATO gains nothing from this other than to send a message to Russia that an F16 is capable of shouting down a SU24, which everyone assumed was the case anyway. Everything else now becomes more difficult and dangerous.
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As for deliberately destabilising the ME, I think we've gone well beyond the point that anyone thinks they can control the destabilization or that it is beneficial to any Western state or group. Russia may have something to gain by stirring the Syrian pot (essentially trolling the West) and military suppliers will gain too (bombs cost bucks)
And how many Airspaces have Turkey invaded (or any other nation) for MINUTES on end, and not been ruthlessly shot down. And an AMBUSH waiting for the rescue operation. Sure, no INTEL being shared there hey?
You are comparing the admitted Western interest in it's Arab Spring support with all the absolute HELL on EARTH it has created, to the weapons selection of a Country being used to defend a peaceful nation at the request of the legal government within Intl Law. Weapons that would NOT even need to be deployed if it was NOT for the US support of an Arab Spring-like proxy war machine.
It amazes me that almost everyone still doesn't understand that the US bombing of Syria as been and still is not legal. Acts of War. The US is waging WAR against a Nation that did nothing to no one. Bring that Spring to the US please. And every other nation in the world will sleep peacefully.
The only country with a track record of bombing and destroying other nations the past 25 years is the US. And 8/10 times when it's a Spring/Civil/Rebel uprising, it's been externally nation supported. By guess who.
Russian would not even be invovled if it wasn't for the insane policies of the US.
And shall this same gauge be used to measure the true aggressor, instead of the defender. Or do we need to revist Desert Shield et all..
The entire US Government Leaders should be tried for War Crimes for what have done and are doing. (but will Syria survive a Democratic Regime Change from the US?)
You are comparing the admitted Western interest in it's Arab Spring support with all the absolute HELL on EARTH it has created, to the weapons selection of a Country being used to defend a peaceful nation at the request of the legal government within Intl Law. Weapons that would NOT even need to be deployed if it was NOT for the US support of an Arab Spring-like proxy war machine.
It amazes me that almost everyone still doesn't understand that the US bombing of Syria as been and still is not legal. Acts of War. The US is waging WAR against a Nation that did nothing to no one. Bring that Spring to the US please. And every other nation in the world will sleep peacefully.
The only country with a track record of bombing and destroying other nations the past 25 years is the US. And 8/10 times when it's a Spring/Civil/Rebel uprising, it's been externally nation supported. By guess who.
Russian would not even be invovled if it wasn't for the insane policies of the US.
And shall this same gauge be used to measure the true aggressor, instead of the defender. Or do we need to revist Desert Shield et all..
The entire US Government Leaders should be tried for War Crimes for what have done and are doing. (but will Syria survive a Democratic Regime Change from the US?)
Syria is the exception to that (or at least was) in the minds of the USA. Assad was Russias last real ally in the region, allowing Russia to have a standing army there and make use of their airfields. They also had a listening base on the peak of Tel Al-Hara until the FSA overrun and destroyed it. But the most important military facility in Syria, from Russias point of view, is probably the naval base at Tartus, which is leased to the Russians. Without that they don't really have a method to project naval power into the Med. When this whole thing flared up they send materiel there to defend it.
Fuzzy/Beelb, do you agree with a strategy that would be to destroy the governments of a few small countries in order to contain or defeat Russia? Really!
Has Russia been invading Europe the past 20 years? Who's trying to take over the world now?
Russia is not allowed to have an armybase/airfield/navyyard anywhere?
Russia is not stirring a pot. The pot has already been boiled and stewed by the regime trying to support and overthrow other nations through terror and spring and subversive war making.
By this logic, if China decides to take out a nearby US Navy Yard, maybe a few islands away from the China Homeland Security Interests, the destruction of the USA reinforcements sent to defend that base will the the fault of the US. For trying to save their material and personnel.
Has Russia been invading Europe the past 20 years? Who's trying to take over the world now?
Russia is not allowed to have an armybase/airfield/navyyard anywhere?
Russia is not stirring a pot. The pot has already been boiled and stewed by the regime trying to support and overthrow other nations through terror and spring and subversive war making.
By this logic, if China decides to take out a nearby US Navy Yard, maybe a few islands away from the China Homeland Security Interests, the destruction of the USA reinforcements sent to defend that base will the the fault of the US. For trying to save their material and personnel.
Cargobane, what part of...
..and..
...do you not understand? There is a complete acknowledgement of the guilt the West has for the situation in the Middle East by both of us (I think, feel free to correct me if I am wrong Beelbeebub), and an acknowledgement that it is wrong for the West to have conducted itself as it has.
You keep alluding to the Arab Spring in this way. The Arab Spring was not instigated by the West nor was it any attempt to remove Russian assets from anywhere. It also had nothing to do with terrorism. It was a popular uprising which many goverments all over the world, with various fingers in various Middle Eastern pies, greeted with absolute horror. Ordinary people who had had enough, and were going to try to fight back, just like Russia did with the tsars.
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It's all fine and dismiss a conspiracy, as you put it, but NATO has everything to gain. It makes far more sense to view the ME actions as an extension of the Bush plan to destabilise governments hostile to the US, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Russia.
Fuzzy,
I would bet silver and gold that there was nothing popular about Libya or Syria to the people that lived there. They were/are being attacked/invaded by external forces.
The Spring is nonsense beyond the first hyped up instances. The bombing and war support that followed to regime change other nations just used that as an excuse. How convenient.
But anyway, you avoided the question. Do you think Russians are an Enemy that needs to be contained and defended aggressively against?
You certainly don't need to quote yourself, I'm quite able to read what you said before.
I would bet silver and gold that there was nothing popular about Libya or Syria to the people that lived there. They were/are being attacked/invaded by external forces.
The Spring is nonsense beyond the first hyped up instances. The bombing and war support that followed to regime change other nations just used that as an excuse. How convenient.
But anyway, you avoided the question. Do you think Russians are an Enemy that needs to be contained and defended aggressively against?
You certainly don't need to quote yourself, I'm quite able to read what you said before.
It's odd isn't it? Countries friendly to Russia had very stable and benign governments which faced terrorist insurgencies. However countries with dictators propped up by the West faced popular uprisings as the ordinary people threw off the manacles of their oppressors.
What's even odder is that we get the exact opposite narrative. The "Muslim Brotherhood" was taking over in Egypt and selling tear gas to the Egyptian government wasn't just a superb financial opportunity but a moral obligation! But those poor Syrian rebels suffering so much, we must obliterate their enemies with bombs and supply them with TOW missiles!
The governments of every nation, and that includes yours, are lying to us to justify their own agendas. They think we are stupid, and for the most part they are absolutely correct in that assumption.
I will tell you now though that The Arab spring was a popular uprising. Go read up on it, and don't bother with Fox News, The Guardian, Russia Today, or any other propaganda mill. It was an actual popular revolution that, in the absence of all the corruption from Europe, Russia, China, and the USA might have actually led to a better life for many of the people in the Middle East and North Africa.
The question wasn't avoided, perhaps it was to abstruse.
Russia is a very large pile of mud, rocks, sand, water, trees, grass, stones, and a couple of bears. In fact it's pretty much the same as Britain if you take away the bears and sprinkle on some foxes. To consider it an enemy would be dumb.
Some people are born on this pile of mud, some people are born on that pile of mud. But consider any person an enemy because they happened to be squeezed out on a particular patch of mud is... primitive thinking. Because as I said:
I will tell you this though. Your government, much like mine, is NOT your ally, they are NOT your friends, and they do NOT have your best interests at heart.