Powerplay Powerplay is dumb. Please make it die.

[MottiKhan]

... Just give all the players the powers so we can have power wars just of players without NPCs, this would be awesome

+1. The downside would be that we'd have painfully few targets before long. We still need merits and trucking stuff isn't a fun way to do it. I don't know what the answer would be.

 

[Privata]

I am a bit slow , but this is what powerplay is about :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)

with this in mind I find it makes more sens.
however I agree with the idea that the way its done sometimes makes zero sens.

for example when the alliance takes a system , I wonder will they ever join in the alliance after they have been exploited for say 8 months? same with the feds or the imperials , like imagine if the feds exploited alioth and over time the aliance alliances in that system fell... that would be epic (and sad for me)

I think the system needs ways for non powerplay memebers to interact , it needs to be more clear about what the powers want and what they do and how the exploit systems. add more random events that depend on the BGS.
I allso think powerplay might have been pushed out too early , it needs missions (that are comming) and maybe more context.

 

[Roybe]

Where PP breaks down for me is that the NPC's do not care about politics...they only care about economics. To Mahon the system must be an industrial economy. He doesn't care what the political leanings are. So that mean if someone is play the BGS as an independent, and the Empire Faction is Industrial...the PP response is to put th Empire Faction in charge...and the Power receives a reward for doing so. <shrug>

 

[goemon]

however I agree with the idea that the way its done sometimes makes zero sens.

for example when the alliance takes a system , I wonder will they ever join in the alliance after they have been exploited for say 8 months?

it's not the alliance taking control via powerplay, it's edmung mahon, who happens to be the president of the alliance at thos point (but he will step back/ rotate away as alliance president after a year, while he probably will go on exploiting any kind of systems). the alliance takes over, if an aliance minor faction rules the system

if you want to work for the alliance, you don't work for mahon.

same goes for hudson, as a job he is president of the federation, but he is exploiting and controlling all kind of systems next to this job - imperial systems, alliance systems...

 

[L'Espion]

[video=youtube;AyenRCJ_4Ww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww[/video]

 

[Privata]

it's not the alliance taking control via powerplay, it's edmung mahon, who happens to be the president of the alliance at thos point (but he will step back/ rotate away as alliance president after a year, while he probably will go on exploiting any kind of systems). the alliance takes over, if an aliance minor faction rules the system

if you want to work for the alliance, you don't work for mahon.

same goes for hudson, as a job he is president of the federation, but he is exploiting and controlling all kind of systems next to this job - imperial systems, alliance systems...

But that dosent make sens to me... and when mahon takes a system it gives a boost to alliance factions and a debuf to federal and empire ones.
my bet is when mahon steps down next year his replacement will be in his shoes and continue from there

as for hudson and winters it will be there respectfull sucsessor who continues down there path.

I do wonder , how do these guys control a system? how do they change how a world does it work?
I realy want FD to explain the lore and logic behind this because I know there is one , but for some reason they dont share...

 

[the100thmonkey]

If player minor factions wouldn't be BGS-only and could actually contest the expansion of a power in PP, things would get interesting. Just think of how many minor factions would have chosen to resist an expansion attempt of a power ... and just imagine how many factions would even support the expansion. It wouldn't be as intense as EVE wars sicne systems are nothing of a benefit for anyone except for the NPC power so we could have "conflict zones" just consisting of players. Epic player battles in case the factions couldn't agree with eachother or if a power attempts to expand into a system.

However, as it is now, minor factions, though we were told so, have no chance getting into PP, not even influecing it via the BGS, the HAVE to allign with some power. And the current expansion procedure is as follows:

Prepare a system
"Buy" it with CC and expand into
Due to incredible low opposition (because minor faction have no influence on PP), the expansion will most likely happen.
Fortify until the system shakes off their pledge to the power but for that one would have to kick a complete power from PP into turmoil just to get one single system back independent.

Precisely what is happening out our way - We're working on an alternate strategy now that doesn't involve Powerplay, but it's not guaranteed to work and because Powerplay is fundamentally disconnected from the main game I play, it feels like a grind. What dothe Powers get from the worlds they "exploit"? More CC. That's it.

If minor player groups would be actively supported clans and maybe with module store and credit income from stations and blah blah but most importantly having influence on PP, PP would get interesting and justify my 50m cr/week income because until now, I have been farming merits in PANCIENCES all the damn time, even though it hit 100% even before we started undermining. Yea, indirect 5th member due to bad PP mechanics :/

Quite.

Forgive me if I misunderstand, but you appear to be saying that you and your clan mates have set up 30 systems to operate the way you want them to, to make that part of the BGS reflect your preferences if you like - and you believe the game mechanic that lets other people impose their style of operation on your chosen systems to be an unwelcome imposition?

That some parts of PP are kinda dumb is a given, although to be honest I'd say that large parts of the entire game lack anything resembling internal logic (no response to players murdering each other in the equivalent of the town centre, just for starters)....I think there's plenty to fix in that line, and to just point the finger at PP is to be somewhat disingenuous.

What I'm saying is that PP is a way to encourage interaction with the BGS in nice child-friendly large-font text. I want to resist expansions into my turf, but I don't want to have to compromise by pledging to "Powers" whose backstories were written on the back of a cigarette packet down the pub one Friday afternoon "brainstorming session". I'm saying that I already do all of the things that Powerplay does, so I don't need a Smurf princess or 50mcr a week to encourage me. I've then gone on to post about how dumb some of the mechanics are.

If someone wants to work against us, that's fine. I just want a way to resist those changes without having to participate in Powerplay - I want to be able to blaze my own trail and play it my way. Why do I have to pledge to a Power I care nothing for in order to do my job looking after the systems I've flipped? I already know what to do and I have no need for the money.

Others have commented that 5-6 hours a week isn't a grind. That's about the entirety of the time I have to play every week. It's not about the money for me (I am a space-Communist, after all!)

 

[Flimley]

But it won't die because there will be power bobble heads. .....power heads. Lol

 

[CaliMeatWagon]

This is like the Merchant Marines trying to do something about the US Navy.

 

[Darth Ender]

I dont get these nonsense "i can't play the game i want to play" threads. They really should be reported as baiting troll threads. It's obvious you aren't playing a game where you write your own rules and do whatever you want however you want it. Crying when anything opposes your will ... How do you make it through a single day in real life? Do you send hate mail to nintendo when Mario gets killed by turtles because you want to play without jumping?

Nobody is forcing you to play near the limited space that powerplay has influence over out of all human occupied space. That being said, if you want to fight an enemy that is taking control via certain means, you have to adapt. If the government is coming to take your land, you dont continue behaving as if you are protecting it from bandits or wildlife, you have to get involved in the judiciary system to stop it because that's how it is operating. If a power is encroaching that would disturb your gameplay, you have to fight it in a way that opposes the way it is going to gain control. Saying you should be able to oppose it via a completely unrelated mechanism is idiotic. Powerplay expansion is mostly a socio-political subversion / coercion that leads to a social revolution. Nothing in the vanilla game mimics that. Your actions are at best political in nature, being able to flip governments. But that's like saying you have influence by backing a given politician. When powerplay is saying, it doesn't matter really what politician you back, we're the super-pac that funds all of them.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Nobody is forcing you to play near the limited space that powerplay has influence over out of all human occupied space.

Actually, we're right on the edge of the bubble. The powerplay bubble has expanded significantly, just not in Antal space - you're practically on the other side of the Powerplay area from us. We chose our base of operations because it satisfied all of our criteria, being far away from the cancer that is Powerplay was one of them. We've been there for six months now, happily ignoring something we find quite silly.

I've previously made the point (in my OP, of all places!) that Powerplay does affect the BGS. It thus makes it rather difficult for us to learn how it works when another layer gets projected on top of it.

As for the "Super-PAC" comment... Where does all the money come from? It just appears in your account ex nihilo, as the economies are, if what you claim is true, totally unaffected by Powerplay. It also doesn't lead to a "social revolution," oftentimes the same government is in place as before, they're just suddenly "exploited" and sending magic tokens... ummm... Command Capital to some cringeworthily badly-written character. It's nonsense.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Saying you should be able to oppose it via a completely unrelated mechanism is idiotic.

As I was thinking about your response, it occurred to me that you have no idea about the BGS - it's not "completely unrelated" at all. In fact, Powerplay mechanics just mimic BGS mechanics with added instructions for those who can't work it out for themselves.

Take flipping a system ("Expanding" in Powerplay parlance):

	BGS	Powerplay
Preparation	Running missions to boost your chosen faction. Supporting other factions in the target system to reduce the influence of the system owning faction.	Hauling leaflets or corruption reports or whatever to the systems marked for you on the map.
Expansion	After much manoeuvering, you manage to get your faction to expand into the system you want it to.	Happens automatically once the voting system has run its course.
Influence building	Once your faction is in the system, run missions to boost it and undermine the dominant faction.	--
Wresting Control	Fight in a war/civil war or have an election. In the case of wars, only combat activities count towards the outcome.	Take part in security operations/resistance pockets/crime sweeps which magically appear for no reason except for the magic coins.
Assuming control	Win the war.	Win the war. Get paid massive amounts of money for doing exactly the same thing everyone else is doing but for doing it where the big, child-friendly, hand-holdy signs tell you to go.

Now, given that the mechanics are identical (although remarkably simplified for Powerplay, we worked it out for ourselves and it took a lot of effort, thinking and discussion), remind me about why I shouldn't be able to use the mechanics I already know to resist the efforts of those that don't?

 

[goemon]

As I was thinking about your response, it occurred to me that you have no idea about the BGS - it's not "completely unrelated" at all. In fact, Powerplay mechanics just mimic BGS mechanics with added instructions for those who can't work it out for themselves.

Take flipping a system ("Expanding" in Powerplay parlance):

	BGS	Powerplay
Preparation	Running missions to boost your chosen faction. Supporting other factions in the target system to reduce the influence of the system owning faction.	Hauling leaflets or corruption reports or whatever to the systems marked for you on the map.
Expansion	After much manoeuvering, you manage to get your faction to expand into the system you want it to.	Happens automatically once the voting system has run its course.
Influence building	Once your faction is in the system, run missions to boost it and undermine the dominant faction.	--
Wresting Control	Fight in a war/civil war or have an election. In the case of wars, only combat activities count towards the outcome.	Take part in security operations/resistance pockets/crime sweeps which magically appear for no reason except for the magic coins.
Assuming control	Win the war.	Win the war. Get paid massive amounts of money for doing exactly the same thing everyone else is doing but for doing it where the big, child-friendly, hand-holdy signs tell you to go.

Now, given that the mechanics are identical (although remarkably simplified for Powerplay, we worked it out for ourselves and it took a lot of effort, thinking and discussion), remind me about why I shouldn't be able to use the mechanics I already know to resist the efforts of those that don't?

but you can do it? flip the system to a minor faction where the power that wants to control the system has it weakenesses? that's one way i see.

basically the bgs needs more effort, the effects of powerplay are not that "deep" - some percentages here or there, security level raised or lowered, blackmarkets opened or closed, powers ome, powers go. and you should be able to counter the effects of powerplay more or less via bgs.

you simply can't "free" a system from a power without taking part in powerplay. this will probably still require massive undermining and sending a power into turmoil (checked on it for sirius). it's a missing feature many are waiting for.

i personally would like to have powerplay and bgs less interwoven, not more (e.g. undermining not lowering security level via kills in a system, for exampel. or black markets closed.). but as we have different players enjoying different parts of the game, i think we have to live with each other.

the concept of "freedom fighters", e.g. being able to oppose an expansion is something i'm very much looking forward.

 

[orfeboy]

but you can do it? flip the system to a minor faction where the power that wants to control the system has it weakenesses? that's one way i see.

basically the bgs needs more effort, the effects of powerplay are not that "deep" - some percentages here or there, security level raised or lowered, blackmarkets opened or closed, powers ome, powers go. and you should be able to counter the effects of powerplay more or less via bgs.

you simply can't "free" a system from a power without taking part in powerplay. this will probably still require massive undermining and sending a power into turmoil (checked on it for sirius). it's a missing feature many are waiting for.

i personally would like to have powerplay and bgs less interwoven, not more (e.g. undermining not lowering security level via kills in a system, for exampel. or black markets closed.). but as we have different players enjoying different parts of the game, i think we have to live with each other.

the concept of "freedom fighters", e.g. being able to oppose an expansion is something i'm very much looking forward.

Powerplay is a load of nonsense. It never should have been implemented as 'political powers'. It would have been far better introduced as massive galactic corporations. Politics should have been left to the BGS. Having two very different movers and shakers in the game that spun their own webs that sometimes help and hinder each other would have been far better. Big business and political motivations sometimes move hand in hand and sometimes they collide in real life. Power play could have been used to represent that.

FD would do far better to expand on the BGS and turn it into the sandbox that this game claims to be. Create more for players to do there. Make systems far more dynamic than they are and allow wealth and status to rise and fall. I have gone into this in detail on other threads. If ED is a sandbox game then it needs the ability for players to create. So far, we do not even come close and adding in 'materials' and 'synthesis' will not solve the problem. So what if you can build a new gun or get a power up for your ship? What do you fly your ship for? That is the real question! What options do you have? So you want to be a mercenary and pretend it is 1984? Fine, do that, nothing is stopping you. DO you want to help a system grow and develop or save it from disaster? You should be able to do this. It gives player groups in this massively MULTIPLAYER game something to do together long term and would sculpt the galaxy around the lone mercenary types making the game far more interesting for EVERYONE.

 

[the100thmonkey]

but you can do it? flip the system to a minor faction where the power that wants to control the system has it weakenesses? that's one way i see.

While I wasn't directly referencing system-flipping as a method of resisting Powerplay expansions, yes, this is exactly what my comrades and I are switching to. One of the issues I have with Powerplay is that it effectively masses unconnected CMDRs against much smaller, but far better organised groups for no reason other than it's Powerplay. Let's BGS!. Were it not for PP, those CMDRs would be off doing their own things. PP encourages people to play it (and thus work 'together', charitably put) by giving them a huge incentive and a massive helping hand in directing their activities. We've been doing this on our own in a self-directed manner since January! I don't doubt that many of the CMDRs doing Powerplay enjoy it, but I do wonder if they wouldn't enjoy the BGS just as much if it were shoved in their faces in as direct a manner.

I strongly suspect that if the massive financial incentives were removed, far, far fewer people would participate, which is my second problem with Powerplay. I've previously characterised it less charitably above, but in short I think it's poorly-written and really grindy - I'd be more inclined towards it if it didn't read like a 12 year old's first attempt at science fiction world-building. Rather than rethink the entire thing, it was turned into "BGS lite, now with 70% less meat and 10,000% more calories!" Basically, it was massively incentivised (really? 50mcr/week for 5-6 hours gameplay? Really?). My personal perspective is that it's just not fun gameplay, the reason being that there is no agency in the entire operation.

There's no need to publish a manual for the BGS as Powerplay effectively fills the same role.

basically the bgs needs more effort, the effects of powerplay are not that "deep" - some percentages here or there, security level raised or lowered, blackmarkets opened or closed, powers ome, powers go. and you should be able to counter the effects of powerplay more or less via bgs.

OK, we can disagree on that - while I agree the BGS needs more work, the exact nature of that work is a matter of perspective - but as you say next...

you simply can't "free" a system from a power without taking part in powerplay.

I know, right? RAWR!

this will probably still require massive undermining and sending a power into turmoil (checked on it for sirius). it's a missing feature many are waiting for.

I've seen no indication that there are any mechanics in the pipeline that will allow for it though. Basically, to "free" a system from Powerplay, the entirety of a power's space will have to go into turmoil, and even in the unlikely event that that scenario actually eventuates for Hudson, there's no guaranteee that the systems we want removed from the PP sphere will be in that set. Essentially, Powerplay forces you to play it, even if you have no interest in it, simply because it is so hard to shed systems. Recently, Antal had to drop a large number of unprofitable systems in order to stay viable as a Power. I haven't looked into what they did in any detail, but I suspect a bit of deliberate fifth-columning was involved, i.e. switching pledge and undermining your own systems to make them cost too many magic beans much CC.

i personally would like to have powerplay and bgs less interwoven, not more (e.g. undermining not lowering security level via kills in a system, for exampel. or black markets closed.).

I'd personally like to have Powerplay go die in a fire.

but as we have different players enjoying different parts of the game, i think we have to live with each other.

Or FD could separate Powerplay into a different game mode. Like Open, but with added sugar.

the concept of "freedom fighters", e.g. being able to oppose an expansion is something i'm very much looking forward.

Thing is, it's been mentioned, what, a couple of times by the devs?

 

[jmp470]

after reading all three pages. I think PP is working as it should and the OP is being forced into the system. That is exactly how it should be..... Just like real life.... You can run, fight, or cooperate... Basic life decisions....

 

[the100thmonkey]

after reading all three pages. I think PP is working as it should and the OP is being forced into the system. That is exactly how it should be..... Just like real life.... You can run, fight, or cooperate... Basic life decisions....

"Blaze your own trail, unless noobs stop you."

 

[Darth Ender]

As I was thinking about your response, it occurred to me that you have no idea about the BGS - it's not "completely unrelated" at all. In fact, Powerplay mechanics just mimic BGS mechanics with added instructions for those who can't work it out for themselves.

Now, given that the mechanics are identical (although remarkably simplified for Powerplay, we worked it out for ourselves and it took a lot of effort, thinking and discussion), remind me about why I shouldn't be able to use the mechanics I already know to resist the efforts of those that don't?

Yes, in practice they are mostly activities re-used from the main game, but it's similarity is not because the in-game-universe activity is the same as PP so much as it is a limitation on the game engine and programmer time to work on it. You misunderstand my statement. I am not saying the reality of it isn't similar as a player playing the game. I'm saying the in-universe representation of it is completed unrelated and operates on different mechanics and on different levels than the things a minor faction or group of players could hope to influence.

In the game universe, your able to sway local faction influence. That's it really. You aren't given a means to sway meta faction influence because it is beyond the influence of a handful of people. A power comes in and regardless of the government or minor faction, can take control of the system. That kind of influence and power is not something a minor faction can stop, simply make harder. The only thing that can stop it is a force of equal power and influence (another power).

Pretending like some minor faction should be able to oppose the force spanning hundreds of systems is not really realistic. It's not simply a military matter. It's influence. That influence is not confined to a single government type or faction, it is much bigger than all of that and your tiny voice will not be heard over it. Nor should it.


Now in reality, yes, a group of players can oppose the will of a power. But such activity should be contained via all parties being part of a power (even if only for a day) because that's how it should be required to play out in the in-game-universe. Having it your way just looks ridiculous.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Thank you for a polite response this time.

 

[CaliMeatWagon]

As I was thinking about your response, it occurred to me that you have no idea about the BGS - it's not "completely unrelated" at all. In fact, Powerplay mechanics just mimic BGS mechanics with added instructions for those who can't work it out for themselves.

Take flipping a system ("Expanding" in Powerplay parlance):

	BGS	Powerplay
Preparation	Running missions to boost your chosen faction. Supporting other factions in the target system to reduce the influence of the system owning faction.	Hauling leaflets or corruption reports or whatever to the systems marked for you on the map.
Expansion	After much manoeuvering, you manage to get your faction to expand into the system you want it to.	Happens automatically once the voting system has run its course.
Influence building	Once your faction is in the system, run missions to boost it and undermine the dominant faction.	--
Wresting Control	Fight in a war/civil war or have an election. In the case of wars, only combat activities count towards the outcome.	Take part in security operations/resistance pockets/crime sweeps which magically appear for no reason except for the magic coins.
Assuming control	Win the war.	Win the war. Get paid massive amounts of money for doing exactly the same thing everyone else is doing but for doing it where the big, child-friendly, hand-holdy signs tell you to go.

Now, given that the mechanics are identical (although remarkably simplified for Powerplay, we worked it out for ourselves and it took a lot of effort, thinking and discussion), remind me about why I shouldn't be able to use the mechanics I already know to resist the efforts of those that don't?

Your words would have more weight if you were able keep your personal opinions out of your comparisons. As it sits right now, your analysis is heavily biased.

And as I stated before, you're pretty much complaining about the Merchant Marines' inability to do anything against the US Navy. Your little group, from what you stated, has control over 30 systems. Hudson controls 1,000+ plus and has thousands of players pledged to him. How is your little group supposed to compete with the military might of the Federation? Or any other large political power?