Not terribly excited for the expansion really

[entelin]

There is so much good things to say about Elite Dangerous. Fantastic sound, and with track IR or oculus the interface is innovative, fast, functional and easy to use. The graphics engine runs well on even a lower spec computer, the combat has a good balance between twitch and strategy. Procedural generation of the galaxy is second to none.

And yet the gameplay is just a simple grind, and in it's pursuit to be casual friendly (offline mode, lack of any way to prevent people from warping out, no risk of loosing much due to the insurance system, minimal value and essentially unlootable cargo outside of pure roleplay, no way to locate people out of warp) it guts any meaningful interaction from the game and with it, any real reason to play. I feel like people only play this because either they like the grind somehow, or see all the potential and just hoping that one day the game will be worth playing.

Now before people scream "IT'S NOT EVE", let me explain why it should be. Here's the thing, everything Elite does well, Eve does horribly, even elite's grindy content is miles above Eve's boring click red square & press F1 fest. Yet everything Eve does well Elite either doesn't do at all, or has intentionally gutted into meaninglessness.

Why not take the "offline" mode and turn it more into an open world story driven campaign / tutorial. Then on the multiplayer side of things, strip out the npc goods, add in player manufacturing, player owned space, factions, and stations. Compared to the things that have already been accomplished the basics of a meaningful multiplayer game are trivial. If the good ideas from Eve were combined with the good fundamentals of Elite you would have one hell of a game.

That game might not be Elite, but please make it, because you certainly could.

 

[kurush]

Ok, so the expansion is not good for pew pew people apparently. Good to hear, I probably need to check it out.

 

[tafkabb]

You don't like it because you don't get it. It's not a grind: It's a huge galaxy and it's playtime

 

[entelin]

No I do get it, it's impressive, but gameplay itself is just a grind. There's not really any meaningful player to player interactions that can happen. Naturally there's some interest in seeing what all the procedural generator can do, checking out the detail they put into the game, blackholes, planets, stars, as I mentioned in the first post there is so much I can say positive about the setting and execution of the game. However multiplayer gameplay is severely lacking, and even from a purely singleplayer perspective, its very shallow.

 

[tafkabb]

I don't know, maybe we just approach it in different ways. I've only had an objective twice: once to get an Eagle, and the next time was to reach Sagittarius A*.
It took me 4 or 5 months to get enough cash to buy and fit an Orca, but that's entirely down to me just farting about and leaving almost everything I start before it's half finished.
I never know what I'm going to do until I turn the game on and I'm way, way, waaay off getting bored yet. I haven't even looked at Powerplay. I've never tried piracy. I've never taken part in a community goal.
I've never been happier playing a game for this long, and I don't find it remotely grindy. I just play - I've been waiting 30 years for this and I'm making the most of it

 

[DragoonKnight]

There is so much good things to say about Elite Dangerous. Fantastic sound, and with track IR or oculus the interface is innovative, fast, functional and easy to use. The graphics engine runs well on even a lower spec computer, the combat has a good balance between twitch and strategy. Procedural generation of the galaxy is second to none.

And yet the gameplay is just a simple grind, and in it's pursuit to be casual friendly (offline mode, lack of any way to prevent people from warping out, no risk of loosing much due to the insurance system, minimal value and essentially unlootable cargo outside of pure roleplay, no way to locate people out of warp) it guts any meaningful interaction from the game and with it, any real reason to play. I feel like people only play this because either they like the grind somehow, or see all the potential and just hoping that one day the game will be worth playing.

Now before people scream "IT'S NOT EVE", let me explain why it should be. Here's the thing, everything Elite does well, Eve does horribly, even elite's grindy content is miles above Eve's boring click red square & press F1 fest. Yet everything Eve does well Elite either doesn't do at all, or has intentionally gutted into meaninglessness.

Why not take the "offline" mode and turn it more into an open world story driven campaign / tutorial. Then on the multiplayer side of things, strip out the npc goods, add in player manufacturing, player owned space, factions, and stations. Compared to the things that have already been accomplished the basics of a meaningful multiplayer game are trivial. If the good ideas from Eve were combined with the good fundamentals of Elite you would have one hell of a game.

That game might not be Elite, but please make it, because you certainly could.

In other words you do not want Elite. You want something like EVE 2 or a X3:MMO edition, with bonus ganking on top of it. What am I supposed to do in your twisted world if I am intercepted by a wing of pirates and I cant warp out?
I am glad that Elite is not like EVE. That was a horrible game for anyone who cant afford to spend hours every day at it. If the insurance system in Elite worked anything similar to EVE I would have never bought Elite or Horizons. Its a horrible death mechanic to kill hours and hours of hard work and effort just because your ship was destroyed. Elite's 5% is reasonable. EVE's 50% is not.
And I am glad there is a solo mode and a private group mode. It means I can avoid gankers like CODE, because engaging a wing of PVP players by myself when all I want is to trade superconductors at the next space station is not my idea of fun. And being forced to stay on the fringes of civilized space just because I dont have a wing of friends / guildies to play with sucks too.
Elite could have handled the PvP issue the same way that WoW did and made PvP and PvE servers, but you would probably complain about that too.

 

[slootha]

I can understand what entelin is talking about. The game is stunning, and at the surface there is a lot of content, i mean the game world is enormous, beyond belief. But the game seems to lack any meaningful gameplay outside of exploration. The size of the gameworld, while amazing, seems to demote pvp interaction, since people spread out so much. From a non-pvp standpoint, it feels like you have the choice of either hauling goods back and forth or shooting npc rats in belts. It would be really interesting to see missions and story/plot archs that have recurring enemies and promote some sort of reason for going out and shooting up rats except for grinding cash for the next ship. I suppose if ED is meant more to be a sandbox space sim, then it hits it right on the mark. I think what entelin is trying to say, is if you are looking for more than that, you may be dissapointed (not everyone of course, everyone has differente tastes and things that work for them).

 

[DragoonKnight]

You don't like it because you don't get it. It's not a grind: It's a huge galaxy and it's playtime

OP apparently feels that anything that does not add to the pew pew pew or enhance it in some way is pointless. This is precisely why I bought this game. I can pew pew, but I do not have to and I can do other things to have fun.

 

[slootha]

I guess i would like to elaborate that I haven't played since CQC or Powerplay came out, so there may be some aspects in the game now that create drive towards pvp and provide reasons for going after rats.

 

[Cmdr Eran Mintor]

Multiplayer gameplay is lacking but until they fix the horrible instancing (ie P2P networking) it will never be good no matter how much time and effort they put into it. If you have an enemy making goods and selling for huge profits in Elite, like you would in EVE, there is a very high chance you would never have the opportunity to interdict one of their shipments due to the instancing.

Also how do you think the massive populated space with it's hundreds of space stations survive if there were no NPC goods? And what is the point of having trade NPCs at all if you know all the goods are player generated? Elite is a game to get immersed in. Not as some empire builder like in EVE, but as a single pilot in an astounding large universe. It's not EVE, I left that game for reasons and I hope FDev tries to stay as original as possible.

The things you suggest will never happen. Despite how much I want to see multiplayer networking improved and how much I want XBox1/Online/Offline universes to be separate, it will never happen. You can accept it or move on.

This game certainly isn't about the grind, but some choose to make it so. "I want a 'Conda so I'm going to grind for a month and a half just to buy that ship!....now what?" It's a sure-fire way to burn yourself out. Go out and participate in CG's and fight for your moral beliefs. Make a background for your pilot. Get immersed on the massive scale that screams in your face when you land on your first planet. There are a lot of things lacking from this game but I sure as hell they don't turn it into something that could be seriously compared to EVE. They already have that game, it's called EVE Online.

 

[entelin]

The thing is, you hear a lot about Eve being some hardcore game where everyone is out to be antisocial , scamming each other, spying, thieving, etc. That exists no doubt, but what is mentioned less often is that because these "dark" aspects exist the flipside can also exist. Since working together is often needed to survive, trust and friendships must be forged to a much greater extent than most other multiplayer games. It's been over 3 years since I've stopped playing but many of my gaming friends still today are from that time, and I've had many other friends from other games come and go.

Most people can give an interesting story from eve that couldn't have happened in any other game. In my case, the main one that comes to mind was right at the end of my Eve "career", I was one of 3 principal leaders of, at the time, one of the largest wormhole alliances in the game, we conquered and held 3 core systems for years. We weren't "elite pvper's" or anything like that, just a decent size group of people doing whatever we felt was fun at the time. Another wormhole alliance that fancied itself as the "elite" of wormhole space was going around demanding that ownership of player owned customs offices in wormhole space be transferred to them (so they could collect a tax) in exchange for "protection". Anyway we refused, and they declared war. In preparation for the war I bought two fleets of warships, one for home defense, and one at our alliances designated rallying point outside wormhole space for offensive use. A week later they found and burned one of our member corp's wormholes to the ground. We made no effort to defend it as it was not one of our "core" 3, and they were ordered to evacuate anyway anticipating the attack. The next week we found one of their "clients" and destroyed their customs offices, we were still looking for their home wormhole system and gathering allies hoping to counter attack. This back and fourth continued for a number more weeks, with them demanding our surrender claiming we had no chance of standing against them. Were they right? We had a lot to loose, our nerves were on edge for weeks. They finally located and laid siege to our main home, the system our alliance started in, and that we had held for almost 3 years at this point. We managed to field 60 or so ships to defend, to their 90-100 or so, not enough, but we had an ally on call, and they were on the way. I warped the fleet in at range a couple times trying to pick off support ships and stall for time, we lost our ecm backbone, but retained the bulk of our battleship core. Our allies were ready, I warped our fleet in one last time at 30km off the enemy fleet, at the same time our allies poured through the wormhole collapsing it on the way in with their fleet of 60ish comprised of a kitchen sink of medium to small ships. They were stuck, samwitched between two fleets, and they got annihilated, ~80%+ losses. To that date it was the largest battle in wormhole space. In the weeks following, their alliance fell apart, their members lost faith in their leadership, after loosing so much to people they internally ridiculed so harshly before the battle. Our alliance is gone, willingly breaking up about a year later. But I am told that wormhole is still held by one corporation that used to be a member to this day.

That's not a story you would likely find on reddit or even much more than a whisper on the eve forums, but it was one of a number of story's I remember from my personal experience. Story's like this are not uncommon in eve, but if nobody has anything to gain or loose then experiences like this simply don't happen, and the experience becomes shallow. It's about player interaction, I couldn't just switch to "offline mode" to avoid interacting with people. Features like that may cut out some short term pain, but it also cuts out memorable interaction.

 

[entelin]

what is the point of having trade NPCs at all if you know all the goods are player generated?

There wouldn't be, which is why I said remove the npc goods. Also we don't have trade npc's we have stations with a trade interface, which would have to be revamped to support the better trade system, but not removed of course. A player driven economy is more interesting for market minded players than an npc one, so it would be a direct improvement on the current system.

Go out and participate in CG's and fight for your moral beliefs. Make a background for your pilot.

Moral's are a human creation, thus without human interaction there are no "morals" to fight for, your just making labeled numbers go up and down.

Personally if I had my way we would remove all npc stations, factions, everything, and replace it with player driven systems instead. Players interested in empire building can do that, players just interested in combat can do that, players interested in exploration or trading can do that. The difference is that ultimately the story is written by the players, not by some static built in system.

That's not going to happen of course, but really ANYTHING that adds more meaningful player interaction to the game would be a big improvement. And there are plenty more ways of doing that than the eve model.

 

[ratchet5000]

In contrast to the earlier walls of text, I will say one thing: Let's be open minded.

 

[h347h]

No I do get it, it's impressive, but gameplay itself is just a grind. There's not really any meaningful player to player interactions that can happen. Naturally there's some interest in seeing what all the procedural generator can do, checking out the detail they put into the game, blackholes, planets, stars, as I mentioned in the first post there is so much I can say positive about the setting and execution of the game. However multiplayer gameplay is severely lacking, and even from a purely singleplayer perspective, its very shallow.

I'm taking you have not done any base raids with friends because it is amazing and having to coordinate with my FGS to take out turrets while they took out generators in SRVs, it was very fun.

 

[DragoonKnight]

It all sounds like the OP wants to play a different game than the rest of us.

 

[tafkabb]

I don't know about that. He's seeing failings where I don't. I'm not going to criticise him for that

 

[Dweezle]

There is so much good things to say about Elite Dangerous. Fantastic sound, and with track IR or oculus the interface is innovative, fast, functional and easy to use. The graphics engine runs well on even a lower spec computer, the combat has a good balance between twitch and strategy. Procedural generation of the galaxy is second to none.

And yet the gameplay is just a simple grind, and in it's pursuit to be casual friendly (offline mode, lack of any way to prevent people from warping out, no risk of loosing much due to the insurance system, minimal value and essentially unlootable cargo outside of pure roleplay, no way to locate people out of warp) it guts any meaningful interaction from the game and with it, any real reason to play. I feel like people only play this because either they like the grind somehow, or see all the potential and just hoping that one day the game will be worth playing.

Now before people scream "IT'S NOT EVE", let me explain why it should be. Here's the thing, everything Elite does well, Eve does horribly, even elite's grindy content is miles above Eve's boring click red square & press F1 fest. Yet everything Eve does well Elite either doesn't do at all, or has intentionally gutted into meaninglessness.

Why not take the "offline" mode and turn it more into an open world story driven campaign / tutorial. Then on the multiplayer side of things, strip out the npc goods, add in player manufacturing, player owned space, factions, and stations. Compared to the things that have already been accomplished the basics of a meaningful multiplayer game are trivial. If the good ideas from Eve were combined with the good fundamentals of Elite you would have one hell of a game.

That game might not be Elite, but please make it, because you certainly could.

Well said!

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

OP apparently feels that anything that does not add to the pew pew pew or enhance it in some way is pointless. This is precisely why I bought this game. I can pew pew, but I do not have to and I can do other things to have fun.

Actually, no, it's not that. It's the reason to pew pew, is lacking. Players need possessions to protect; like bases. There is so much space,and so much territory, there's no reason not to let players declare space, and give them something to lose, and something to protect.

 

[Cynaqq]

Primary criticism of Elite we hear twenty times a day is that it lacks any meaningful interactions. I can understand the reason for this thought. It actually does not have interactions any different than any other game. Mechanics, opportunities are all there.

What Elite lacks is, flashy messages that scream 'You have achieved something!'. You don't have multi level dungeon raids that ends in a boss fight and you get loot. There will be some version of this though, base raids in Horizons is paving the way.

It will in no way will be the way it is in other mmos though. There will be no way ever to affect anything in the game world more than we do now because Elite is designed to be a game first and a second life second.

Let me elaborate. Most mmos are designed so you have to be playing constantly, investing serious time because if you don't you fall behing in terms of wealth, power etc. The game makes you feel left out if you take a break for a week because it is designed in such a way that nothing stays the same ever. Your group of friends move on, your clan, gang or whatever moves on and you are no longer viable as a member for a while until you grind and catch up to the current meta of the game.

Elite is designed to be the opposite. It is designed to change only temporarily so you can leave anytime you want and for any duration and when you come back, everything is still familiar at least. Of course, it changes a lot at this stage because it is still pretty early in development and stuff is being added and tweaked. In heart though Elite never changes.

This is not many fans of mmos can understand. Elite is designed as a game specifically not to force you to play. This is different from designed to not to force you to do anything particular in the game. All mmos have some mechanism to force you to play, they usually change the game meta constantly, let the players form clans and control territory so the play area changes constantly and you constantly feel like you are missing the fun any time you aren't playing.

Well Elite is designed to do the exact opposite. You don't feel like you have to play all the time and any time you don't play is wasted. Unless you really like the game and really want to play it. It is a game designed for people with lives that matter more than video games. It's designed so the only thing that changes is you and the game world is made to adapt to your changing play style rather than the world changing constantly and you are left out if you don't keep up. A busy doctor or engineer will play this game probably for a few hours a week. Maybe will have to stay away for weeks and come back. The game stays almost exactly the same for them in this while and this is by design. It's totally intentional. This is what most complainers don't understand about the design philosophy of Elite.

This game will be that second life in computer generated space in due time but not in the way a lot of mmo fans would have it if they had their way. It will always be the game for a mature audience with lots of important things to do in real life and only want to relax playing a complex enough game not to insult their faculties. It's for people who don't want to be pressured to play at all let alone not to be pressured to do anything particular in the game.

Make suggestions, by all means. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and have every right to voice it. Just don't cry out your disappointment when they don't add player controlled bases and clan controlled territories. They will never let anyone control anyone's gameplay more than letting them engage in a dogfight if encountered by chance or by intent. The highest level of change we can induce into the game world is and will be about what the bgs does right now.

Keep your expectations and your suggestions inside this philosphy if you don't want to be constantly disappointed.

Let me summerize it one last time.

1.The only thing that changes have to be the player itself, the game world has to stay relatively the same but adapt to the changing play style of the player.

2. Anything I do in game shouldn't affect anyone who doesn't want to let that happen. So solo mode is here to stay.

3. The game should not make anyone feel left out if they don't have time to play.

I don't think these principles will change so everybody has to decide if this is the game for themselves because the other path will lead to disappointment.

But make any suggestion to make the gameplay richer, the missions more varied and intersting. Make trading, exploring and everything complex and fun to play.

Elite should be fun to play, not fun to win or fun to finish.

 

[Jason S]

OP there is currently no offline mode and no intention to do that.

 

[entelin]

... the reason to pew pew, is lacking. Players need possessions to protect; like bases. There is so much space,and so much territory, there's no reason not to let players declare space, and give them something to lose, and something to protect.

This exactly

Primary criticism of Elite we hear twenty times a day is that it lacks any meaningful interactions. I can understand thenreason forn this thought. It actually does not have interactions any different than any other game. Mechanics, opportunities are all there.

What Elite lacks is, flashy messages that scream 'You have achieved something!'.

Lol no thanks. Achievement's tend to be used as a cheap substitute for real gameplay. They are immersion breaking, and I think we can all be grateful that the achievement plague hasn't hit Elite (yet).

Though you do realize that everything you just said in the rest of your post about other "mmos" are things elite actually has in common with them right? Outside very few, eve being one, mmo's are static experiences in which the player cannot meaningfully change the world or effect anyone else's experience. Honestly the only difference is elite's lack of a leveling system (to it's credit) and lack of content in comparison (to it's deficit).