General / Off-Topic Fanboys - the enemy of excellence

[Achilles7]

With the arrival of the big H..the forelock tugging has commenced. While you may think obsequious fawning is a good modus operandi, let me explain, that you are in fact contributing to complacency and customer contempt (relative terms)..I happen to think that FD are an example of committed, enthusiastic developers with industry leading integrity, but that should not let them off the hook.
.
FD are a profit making organisation like any other and as such, I vote with my £s and patronage. I have never rage criticised ED in my 7 months of 'investment' as I think it is the most ineffective type of criticism. I love ED with all it's faults - but let us not forget, we are already using the carrot approach by paying for the game, expansions, paint skins etc..this is our way most effective way of showing appreciation for the product. I will continue to buy the expansions based on the quality of content..although Horizons is more a purchase of moral support for me, as I'm not overly enthused by what I've seen.
.All of us are deeply involved in this project and as such, we are best placed to see the flaws and avenues for improvement..and this means that, contrary to the fanboys' opinions that we shouldn't criticise, I believe that it is essential that we do and be exacting & demanding with our expectations. Sir Alex ferguson was one of the greatest exponents of demanding the very best and not accepting anything less - and even those he was critical of, now revere and thank him (except Roy Keane ofc)..in the future, if we play our part, FD should get close to achieving the full potential of ED, hence with our positive & negative feedback, we will get the game we and they, deserve. Beta testing is obviously a structured version of this, but historically we have let FD get away with so much - from poorly designed and ill advised timing of new features/gameplay (*cough* powerplay!)to bugs that take too long to fix!..to promises that were not kept, just mention the DDF..
.
In conclusion, DB & FD's knowledge, talent, insight, creativity, innovation & vision is the framework around which everything revolves and I wouldn't have it any other way, but our investment brings a unique insight from a new perspective - our perspective can and should, propel criticism which starts a dialogue, which ignites actions and ultimately brings change. This cycle must be repeated for efficient/effective progress and the process should not be understated or underestimated. Hopefully, this results in FD pushing the envelope, if we contribute in the right way! Gratuitous praise, while very nice and heart warming for all concerned, is not the right way!
.

NB - No time to proof read so pls, no spelling/punctuation comments..All other criticism accepted and should contribute to improved, top notch posting in future..possibly!

 

[The_Quasar]

There is nothing wrong with praise, where praise is appropriate.
Constructive criticism along with appropriate praise should always be more effective than moaning and nerf this and nerf that (which is almost invariably a personal problem, without thinking of the community).

 

[Toumal]

Your post was a bit long.... but I think if the gist of it is for FD to "stay hungry" and not become complacent and happy with a status quo in their game, then I completely agree.

Point in case: SC transition discussions. There's people saying it's completely bad, others say it's serviceable but worthy of improvement, and yet others who say it's fine and in no need of change.

I'm in the middle there. I say most of what's in the game is a good start - but oh yes they should absolutely "stay hungry" and improve even things done back in 2014, like the SC dropout. There have been suggestions on how to better mask the dropout transition, and FD would be well advised to listen.

They do have their long term plan though so you have to stay reasonable in your expectations.

 

[Space Dandy]

With the arrival of the big H..the forelock tugging has commenced. While you may think obsequious fawning is a good modus operandi, let me explain, that you are in fact contributing to complacency and customer contempt (relative terms)..I happen to think that FD are an example of committed, enthusiastic developers with industry leading integrity, but that should not let them off the hook.
.
FD are a profit making organisation like any other and as such, I vote with my £s and patronage. I have never rage criticised ED in my 7 months of 'investment' as I think it is the most ineffective type of criticism. I love ED with all it's faults - but let us not forget, we are already using the carrot approach by paying for the game, expansions, paint skins etc..this is our way most effective way of showing appreciation for the product. I will continue to buy the expansions based on the quality of content..although Horizons is more a purchase of moral support for me, as I'm not overly enthused by what I've seen.
.All of us are deeply involved in this project and as such, we are best placed to see the flaws and avenues for improvement..and this means that, contrary to the fanboys' opinions that we shouldn't criticise, I believe that it is essential that we do and be exacting & demanding with our expectations. Sir Alex ferguson was one of the greatest exponents of demanding the very best and not accepting anything less - and even those he was critical of, now revere and thank him (except Roy Keane ofc)..in the future, if we play our part, FD should get close to achieving the full potential of ED, hence with our positive & negative feedback, we will get the game we and they, deserve. Beta testing is obviously a structured version of this, but historically we have let FD get away with so much - from poorly designed and ill advised timing of new features/gameplay (*cough* powerplay!)to bugs that take too long to fix!..to promises that were not kept, just mention the DDF..
.
In conclusion, DB & FD's knowledge, talent, insight, creativity, innovation & vision is the framework around which everything revolves and I wouldn't have it any other way, but our investment brings a unique insight from a new perspective - our perspective can and should, propel criticism which starts a dialogue, which ignites actions and ultimately brings change. This cycle must be repeated for efficient/effective progress and the process should not be understated or underestimated. Hopefully, this results in FD pushing the envelope, if we contribute in the right way! Gratuitous praise, while very nice and heart warming for all concerned, is not the right way!
.

NB - No time to proof read so pls, no spelling/punctuation comments..All other criticism accepted and should contribute to improved, top notch posting in future..possibly!

Nicely said!
+1

 

[JeffRyan]

I agree with you, but you see there's these things called opinions. Not everyone agrees with you. And it's clear that Frontier have been going through the criticisms, the flaws and the bugs. But just because someone thinks Horizons is the best thing ever and is blown away by the graphics, new gameplay options and the srv driving doesn't automatically make them a Fanboy.

In fact if you go through the history of posts here, there's very very few people who're ardent 'Fanboys', the guy praising the hell out of something this week is the same guy who was going toe-to-toe with Michael the week before.

 

[Kicks]

I understand the gist of the post, though I disagree a bit with the title.

Constructive criticism is always welcome and good for the developers to stay on track and fix what is truly broken, rather than "bad by opinion".

The problem I see on these forums is that constructive criticism is few and far between, and what generally happens is people do not check their attitude at the door and post badly formed opinions, with capital letters, exclamation points and why the world should hate things.

That's no way to critique. Tell me, what is the difference between the following two topics:


"CRAPRA MKIV"

"A discussion on he merits/demerits of the new Cobra"


One is a real title....

 

[dayrth]

There will always be fanboys and there will always be haters, but there are also many people providing useful feed back. Having said that, although non-constructive deriding serves no purpose whatsoever, a bit of praise now and again is nice and can be very motivational.

 

[Fost]

I agree with what you are saying actually and was wondering the other day where that stems from.
I would definitely class myself as a fan but know I'd also bring up anything I think needs improvement or is wrong.

The times I have felt myself wanting to write fanboyish posts (and so far hopefully have stopped) are when I've seen things go the other way - see posts in the beta bugs forum that are rude / needy where people are slating things in the beta for being buggy. Stuff like that makes me feel the need to redress the balance but I always try and walk away from the keyboard at that point.

So yeah - I wonder if some of it stems from trying to combat the opposite? Aggressively negative and aggressively optimistic posting with no basis doesn't help anyone.

 

[Banquet]

While I agree that constructive criticism by players is not only good and healthy, but also necessary for a game to become the best it can be - I also think that a hard working, talented and passionate dev team (and FD clearly are all of these) should see positive feedback for all their efforts.

Although there is massive scope for improvement and addition, I think Horizons is already magnificent. As I can barely stop muttering to myself about the amazing views and fantastic, long dreamed of, experiences I am having flying over and exploring planets and moons while sober, a weekend doing same with decent quantities of wine and beer is highly likely to elicit a rampant fanboy post from me at some point on Friday or Saturday and I think the devs are well deserving of such posts!

 

[Mikey2305]

Constructive criticism i have no problem with when i see it. Much here however looks like random ranting or make the game like i want it or i will cry kind of posts. Im sure the developers do tap into the forums and have an understanding of the big picture. What they are not going to do is rewrite every night to suit off the wall, unreasonable and unrealistic personal preferences and expectations. Whatever happens in this game has to happen within the context and constraints of the game engine im comfortable with that and if that makes me a fanboi then i will live with that

 

[LawHunter]

Maybe these "fan boys" just like the game. They might not be boys but men or women, thus use of the term displays ignorance. If it comes from football then that would explain.

What annoys me on the forum is people say this is "broken" with no creative input.

Everyone has an opinion.

 

[TomP]

Pejorative labelling - the enemy of constructive discourse.

 

[Space Dandy]

Maybe these "fan boys" just like the game. They might not be boys but men or women, thus use of the term displays ignorance. If it comes from football then that would explain.

What annoys me on the forum is people say this is "broken" with no creative input.

Everyone has an opinion.

The thing is often when people moan and complain or bellyache about something it tends to be because they like the game too but something about it is really bugging them or they have an issue with something in the game. Often they do this to try and express their opinion so the game can be made to be better.

I have no problem with praise when it's due or complaint when I feel it's due, cause lets face it we wont always agree with what is fun or what is a good game mechanic.

I do however have a problem with people that come in a thread and tell you to stop "bellyaching", stop being a cheap sod and get a job or plain out tell you to just leave and don't let the door hit your behind on the way out (note I said this last bit politely but generally it said in a far ruder manner) and just generally try to be ITG while claiming the game is awesome and perfect and we should all bow down to FD and if you don't agree then your a "hater".

These are what I call fanboys. I think this is what the OP was getting at or atleast that's what I think.

 

[newman1702]

So, my (hopefully) concise opinion on communication between a company / FD in this case and the consumers.

Constructive criticism: always welcome. But the responsibility of FD is to take all of the complaints, realize where they come from, and then come up with their own solution to the problem if they decide something needs to be done. They should absolutely not implement suggestions from the player base unless they came up with the same solutions independently; most people making suggestions never worked in game development for a day in their life. I like listening to classical music; it doesn't make me Mozart.

Rage posts: tricky category to define, apart from when it's obvious from orbit, but a lot of the time one man's raging is another man's constructive criticism, particularly since it can be hard to guess the intended tone of the message simply from a block of text. However, pointing things out that are bad, even showing annoyance when FD does something unnaceptable (like completely ignore a paying customer's reported issues without even a reply) is all good. In the end, voting with one's wallet is most effective, and the only thing that counts. As long as forum rules aren't breached, a little bit of sarcasm to point out something obviously wrong can't hurt. It's a way of highlighting issues like any other, and it's up to FD to decide if and how to react.

Praise: I have no problem with it, thought it's less useful than people might imagine. The only sort of praise that will ever matter is the amount of sold units. That's it. I don't mind saying how I like this and that in this game, and have done so when appropriate and it would come up in a conversation, though I personally think that starting a new thread just to say you love FD and want to have their babies makes you look like you're 12. Which you very well may be, I have no way of knowing

 

[Cynaqq]

The best combination that will lead to success, for FD to create an excellent game and make money doing it, and also for their customers to get their money's and any other kind of support's worth to the last penny (or second for time spent), is a healthy mix of honest praise and realistic criticism.

In other words, everyone has to be honest here. FD has to explain, sometimes to excruciating detail, what their plans, current capabilities and future prospects are. I understand from a business point of view, it's impossible to be open about every single thing but the closer to the ideal it gets, the better PR it will bring. I don't see too much of a problem on FD's side here but maybe it's because I'm good at reading between lines when I hear businessmen talk. The players have to be honest to themselves, to the developers and to each other in order to have meaningful discussions without every thread becoming a whiner vs white knight contest.

I admit I'm guilty of white knighting a lot of times. I try to contain it only to the the technical limitations vs people's expectations threads and only to the posts which are openly insulting. It's never a good thing when people with little experience insult the creator of something they have no idea how to create, on the shortcomings of the creation. For some products on the market, especially for manufactured goods, such as an electric razor, this is a valid kind of criticism. If the material quality and the workmanship of a product is lacking, it doesn't require a PhD in physics to recognise these. You can easily see where they have cut corners and where they are trying to rip people off.

With a software development project the size of ED, effective criticism, unfortunately, requires a bit more experience/formal knowledge in the field. It's more akin to a car. In order for your criticism to mean something, you have to be a car enthusiast at least. Otherwise you just sound obnoxious. I believe such rampant uninformed criticism is a product of professional media critic culture and the internet giving everyone free reign on their little 'tech review' corner.

So, my request from FD is to not overestimate the technical knowledge and loyalty of their player base. People apparently need more information, more in depth explanations of some internal mechanisms of the game even in ELI5 form to form their opinion on. Of course they will feel ripped off if they do not understand why they can't have Star Citizen (crysis) graphics, GTA background life, EVE economics, SWG pre CU player interactions, DCS complexity, KSP physics, Space Engine planets, Minecraft sandbox all at the same time especially because the sales pitch vaguely suggests they will.

PS: I don't think the sales pitch means that btw, I've been playing games long enough to understand what the actual game will exactly have after seeing the sales pitch once, looking at some screen shots and concept art. I just believe FD overestimates the intelligence of their average customer and their experience on the history of video games, intricacies of general software development and computer hardware to expect them to support their development blindly for years after years.

 

[c64orinoco]

Hi. I'm one of the 'fanboys'. Yep, Alpha too. What bugs me the most about the forums is the terrible whining noise that is mostly entitlement, little else.

Take the example of transition times. There's been some tears lately. People calling FD incompetent; which is harsh. Really harsh; you can't play for 30 seconds and you call out someone who's been working for months on the game. Good job; it's the 'NetCode' affair all over again.

Here's an idea - get some perspective on your privilege.

Not everyone has had 6-second transitions. Those of us in the Antipodes have had 30 to 60 second transitions pretty much since launch - it's because Our Glorious Nations internet is made out of beer cans and string.

Can't afford an Annaconda? Have you considered the possibility you might be crap at Elite? It's ok, you know, I'm crap at most networked FPS - I don't let it get in the way of fun though.

Grinding a lot ? It's just like smashing your hand with a hammer - if you don't enjoy it why do you persist?

The reason most of us 'fanboys' comment is to cheer the devs up. It must be nice to get the occasional compliment. Most people don't enjoy constant criticism, nor do they deserve it.

Calling out people for enjoying the game and having the opinion that the devs have by and large done a superb job seems a bit bitter to me. Overly critical even. Horizons isn't out of beta yet - I'm sure changes will be made, and I don't think FD will rest on their laurels for getting some compliments like 'it's great!'

Finding the driving difficult? I don't - it's slippery and challenging, yes, but not HARD. It just needs practice is all, it's not Insta-win! Can't find the door to the base? Again, not hard, learn some spatial recognition instead of relying on maps.

TLDR; op is overly critical of people who are genuinely enjoying themselves.

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

The term that the game is broken is always a nice piece of amusement, especially when delivered with some hair ripping explaination about things, only Frontier knows about.

On topic, i consider myself a huge fan of Elite since 1984. This game achieved records in technical, commercial and innovative aspects over the last 31 years like no other game i know of... There are things i'd like to be implemented differently and there are things, i dont like at all. But overall it is simply the best space game i have ever played. And while the 1.x Elite gave me the feeling of the old games with some additional wow moments, Horizons simply blew my mind from the first minute i experienced a landing. Still... Shooting rocks? Where is the robotic drill? I could continue this list for quite a while, but is Elite broke, or am i a fanboy because i think Elite is the best of the best? I bet most people here think like this. And they discuss the things they dont like. So far i have encountered no blind hype followers here, only a few haters and some premature overacting... I like this community

 

[Space Dandy]

Hi. I'm one of the 'fanboys'. Yep, Alpha too. What bugs me the most about the forums is the terrible whining noise that is mostly entitlement, little else.

Take the example of transition times. There's been some tears lately. People calling FD incompetent; which is harsh. Really harsh; you can't play for 30 seconds and you call out someone who's been working for months on the game. Good job; it's the 'NetCode' affair all over again.

Here's an idea - get some perspective on your privilege.

Not everyone has had 6-second transitions. Those of us in the Antipodes have had 30 to 60 second transitions pretty much since launch - it's because Our Glorious Nations internet is made out of beer cans and string.

Can't afford an Annaconda? Have you considered the possibility you might be crap at Elite? It's ok, you know, I'm crap at most networked FPS - I don't let it get in the way of fun though.

Grinding a lot ? It's just like smashing your hand with a hammer - if you don't enjoy it why do you persist?

Point in case.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Nothing wrong with constructive criticisms. I absolutely *adore* this game.....& haven't been so addicted to a game since Civilization.....yet if I see ways in which the game can be improved (like the military side of the game), then you'd better believe that I will be trying to raise those criticisms with the developers-but in a polite & respectful manner!

 

[amigacooke]

Frankly I think Star Citizen and No man's sky are far more likely to keep FD on their toes than any amout of forum input.