Combined Ship Scanners

[Sendraks]

I think a simpler solution is to give ships slots that can only be used for certain things i.e. like the SRV or surface scanner. Have some trade off with respect to internals for doing this, but for the most part additional limited use slots for specific equipment would a) make clear certain ships are specialised to certain roles and b) not create a power creep option by simply giving those ships additional internals overall.

The tradeoff in internals would have to occur to ensure these craft current be effective explorers + traders at the same time.

 

[Fluffy Whiskers]

This is actually a much easier fix than to create a "combined" expensive scanner. All you need to do is make the Detailed Surface Scanner a utility mount and the entire situation is solved. And it even makes sense since the Kill Warrant Scanner is already a utility mount too. By just moving the DSS to utilities you free up that one internal and suddenly every ship that is struggling to find a place for the SRV Hangar can now carry it. No combat ships are effected, nothing becomes unbalanced, you wouldn't even need to change any prices nor power ratings.

I was just thinking the same thing. It never made any sense to me, that the 2 exploration scanners took up internal compartments, when all the other scanners took up utility mounts.

 

[mossfoot]

I was just thinking the same thing. It never made any sense to me, that the 2 exploration scanners took up internal compartments, when all the other scanners took up utility mounts.

I would agree BUT I'm working on certain assumptions that there are some things Frontier won't change.

Splitting up internals. Will never happen for practical reasons - too much possibility of abuse (turn one slot 6 into 6 slot 1s filled with SCBs or hull reinforcement for greater effect than a single 6 SCB/Hull package). Won't happen with "just" Class 2s because once you introduce it the pressure will be on to apply it to all internals.

Adding new internals. Will never happen for presumably future game reasons - I suspect the internals have been designed and organized based on actual modeling of the internals of each ship, based on the idea that in the future we'll be able to go to the back of the ship and see each of these things. Therefore they can't add things because there simply isn't room. That's also why while you can buy the planetary landing suite it doesn't also include the SRV hanger, because the PLS actually isn't a visible internal.

Changing the equipment they have. Though this is probably more of a consistency issue than anything else, I really don't believe they're going to change scanners from internal to external features. It would be NICE, but I don't think it's going to happen.

Therefore, I am pushing for the one thing I think stands an actual chance. A combined sensor suite doesn't disrupt how ED works at all. It's simply new kit, with its own benefits and tradeoffs (especially if it, say, used more energy and weighed more than taking the two units separately, as well as taking up a Class 3 instead of a Class 2 slot)

 

[Mengy]

I would agree BUT I'm working on certain assumptions that there are some things Frontier won't change.

...

Changing the equipment they have. Though this is probably more of a consistency issue than anything else, I really don't believe they're going to change scanners from internal to external features. It would be NICE, but I don't think it's going to happen.

Therefore, I am pushing for the one thing I think stands an actual chance. A combined sensor suite doesn't disrupt how ED works at all. It's simply new kit, with its own benefits and tradeoffs (especially if it, say, used more energy and weighed more than taking the two units separately, as well as taking up a Class 3 instead of a Class 2 slot)

Nah, I disagree. From a developer point of view it's far easier (less costly) to simply make the DSS a utility instead of an internal, versus introducing an entirely new combined scanner. It's most likely simply a variable flag change in the data file for the DSS, changing it's module type from "internal" to "utility". I doubt it would actually take FDev more than a few hours to make the change and test it internally.



And before anyone asks, yes I do have some amateur experience programming and making games, mostly in C++.

 

[mossfoot]

Nah, I disagree. From a developer point of view it's far easier (less costly) to simply make the DSS a utility instead of an internal, versus introducing an entirely new combined scanner. It's most likely simply a variable flag change in the data file for the DSS, changing it's module type from "internal" to "utility". I doubt it would actually take FDev more than a few hours to make the change and test it internally.

And before anyone asks, yes I do have some amateur experience programming and making games, mostly in C++.

In the case of the internals, it's not a question of that they can't - its that they won't. Some decisions are going to be made because they don't want to break their internal game mechanics lore. For example, right now fuel scoops weigh nothing. To some that might not make sense (after all, the device has to weigh SOMETHING). But if they suddenly added weight, how do they explain it? Fuel scoops weighed nothing for the better part of a year, but now they weigh something? That will affect jump range and cause all kinds of compliants from explorers.

Therefore they probably won't.

I'm not saying they can't, or that they might not have a major overhaul of ship mechanics at some point, reinvent the wheel in terms of how internals work. I'm just saying the current is very much against some kinds of game alterations, while other ones wouldn't bother them nearly as much.

 

[Mengy]

In the case of the internals, it's not a question of that they can't - its that they won't. Some decisions are going to be made because they don't want to break their internal game mechanics lore. For example, right now fuel scoops weigh nothing. To some that might not make sense (after all, the device has to weigh SOMETHING). But if they suddenly added weight, how do they explain it? Fuel scoops weighed nothing for the better part of a year, but now they weigh something? That will affect jump range and cause all kinds of compliants from explorers.

Therefore they probably won't.

I'm not saying they can't, or that they might not have a major overhaul of ship mechanics at some point, reinvent the wheel in terms of how internals work. I'm just saying the current is very much against some kinds of game alterations, while other ones wouldn't bother them nearly as much.

Yes but moving the DSS from internal to utility doesn't break anything. It doesn't change ship weights, nor power curves, nor prices. It doesn't effect combat ships at all so no PvE nor PvP balance issues. The only thing it accomplishes is it frees up one small internal slot that explorers sorely need now due to the introduction of the SRV hangar. It's a simple, elegant, and easy to implement solution that even has some precedence in the game world and lore due to two other specialized scanners already classified as utility mounts.

 

[mossfoot]

Yes but moving the DSS from internal to utility doesn't break anything. It doesn't change ship weights, nor power curves, nor prices. It doesn't effect combat ships at all so no PvE nor PvP balance issues. The only thing it accomplishes is it frees up one small internal slot that explorers sorely need now due to the introduction of the SRV hangar. It's a simple, elegant, and easy to implement solution that even has some precedence in the game world and lore due to two other specialized scanners already classified as utility mounts.

I'm not disagreeing that it's elegant and makes logical sense (they are scanners after all). I'm just saying the devs might have "reasons" not to do it. How would it affect balance, for example. If you make both scanners utility mounts, for example, that frees up TWO internal slots that weren't free before. Also, it fills up two utility slots that might be needed for other things.

I do like the idea of only making the DSS a utility mount - picture the discovery scanner as the internal being the sensor suite, and the DSS an external fine tuning scanner that feeds into the discovery scanner. It's elegant and even feels a bit complex in that imagination kind of way by having something on the outside feeding to a component on the inside.

But the question is, will the Devs see it that way?

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

I think a simpler solution is to give ships slots that can only be used for certain things i.e. like the SRV or surface scanner. Have some trade off with respect to internals for doing this, but for the most part additional limited use slots for specific equipment would a) make clear certain ships are specialised to certain roles and b) not create a power creep option by simply giving those ships additional internals overall.

And there is an in-game precident for this - the Orca.

 

[Ubiquitous Che]

The scanners shouldnt be internal modules at all - but utility slot modules like the cargo scanner, wake scanner, bounty scanner etc.
Far more consistent that way

I still oppose the change because I think it's fair for low-tier explorer ships to have to make tradeoffs, and I think that this would flatten the power curve between exploration ships too much.

However: If the change were to be made to accommodate this, I think that making the surface scanner a utility slot is the way to do it. That way you're still imposing a hardware limitation cost on having a surface scanner, which is important.

 

[Lestat]

Here the issue I have with the Utility mount idea. It affect Multi Role players. It could be a Pirate/Explorer or a Trader/Explorer or a mix of all 3. If the user forced to discard a utility mount for Exploration or combat. Because someone says so. It kinda ruins Multi player gaming.

 

[mossfoot]

Here the issue I have with the Utility mount idea. It affect Multi Role players. It could be a Pirate/Explorer or a Trader/Explorer or a mix of all 3. If the user forced to discard a utility mount for Exploration or combat. Because someone says so. It kinda ruins Multi player gaming.

Ruins? It's one slot, easily swapped at most stations. And multi role players tweak their loadout all the time depending on their current focus.

 

[Lestat]

So your idea is ruin game play for other players because you will not get a Cobra?

 

[mossfoot]

So your idea is ruin game play for other players because you will not get a Cobra?

HOW is it ruining gameplay? Earlier you were all about "making compromises" if you want to be an explorer in a Diamondback, but you're opposed to this because you think it would force multi role traders to... make compromises?

And, again, since when do Multi Role traders NOT swap out internals and utilities as needed because of what they feel like doing any given day? Your argument holds no water.

 

[Lestat]

Every ship has a weakness. That is problem you have is you don't understand Diamondback Explorer has a weakness. So your asking to have it change it. If Frontier follow your idea. Every ship could do everything and the sidewinder would have the space as a T9. So how fun will that be? I think it would be Boring and no one would play it.

You could fly a Cobra MKIII or MKVI and have what you need.

 

[mossfoot]

Every ship has a weakness. That is problem you have is you don't understand Diamondback Explorer has a weakness. So your asking to have it change it. If Frontier follow your idea. Every ship could do everything and the sidewinder would have the space as a T9. So how fun will that be? I think it would be Boring and no one would play it.

Nice hyperbole. You buy in bulk?

Honestly I don't know why you keep harping about the DBX... I don't even fly one. This isn't about the DBX, it's just one example. And, as pointed out plenty of times before, even IF you had a combined scanner or switched the DSS to a utility mount, the DBX would still not be able to do everything, so it still has weaknesses. So, again, your point fails.

However, you still haven't explained how swapping the DSS to a utility slot would "ruin" Multi Role traders.

 

[Lestat]

Let see Let take a Cobra remember the ship that could fit all for exploration. Shield, SRV hanger, Fuel scoop, Field Repair Kit, Discovery scanner, Detailed scanner. Yet only has two Utility mounts. I fly 12 weeks out in space. Then lose a utility mount. That could protect me in 100 LY from the nearest space station.

 

[mossfoot]

Let see Let take a Cobra remember the ship that could fit all for exploration. Shield, SRV hanger, Fuel scoop, Field Repair Kit, Discovery scanner, Detailed scanner. Yet only has two Utility mounts. I fly 12 weeks out in space. Then lose a utility mount. That could protect me in 100 LY from the nearest space station.

As covered elsewhere:

Let me see if I got this straight.

• Combining the two scanners to free up an internal slot would ruin balance because suddenly all ships can do everything
• Moving a scanner to a utility slot would kill multi role pilots because they would be able to do nothing
• The balance of internals in 1.4 and earlier was fine. People complained about needing more, they were told to suck it up.
• The balance of internals in 2.0 taking up an extra slot is also fine, despite it meaning you effectively have one less.
• But freeing up a slot so the internals usage is on par with 1.4 is somehow not fine and ruins the game
• This remains true even if it's balanced out by other means such as a) making a combined scanner take up a Class 3 slot which would be a significant impact, b) making it use more power and weigh more than taking the units alone, which would also be a trade off, or c) swapping it with a Utility mount which continues requiring some kind of trade off.

As for your Cobra example, so you want that utility slot to act as an extra shield booster, yet replacing the DSS you've just moved to Utility with a Shield Cell Bank or Hull Reinforcement wouldn't work because....?

Am I the only one who's not getting your logic?

 

[KayAitch]

Why don't scanners follow the same pattern as all the other internals anyway. Just have discovery scanners and surface scanners, and an A3 scanner discovers things further out than a A2, and so on.

 

[popuptoaster]

Players managed to get all the way to the other side of the galaxy and back before field repair units were even a thing in the game, stop trying to make it sound like things are "essential" equipment, if you buy a ship with limited storage you have to suck it up and make some hard choices, so you want to explore in a cheap ship?

Don't take SRVs with you if you are scared you'll need a repair unit, there is nothing in game says you HAVE to drive about on planets or that you NEED to perform repairs while out there.

If you WANT to do both those things, buy a bigger ship.

 

[mossfoot]

Players managed to get all the way to the other side of the galaxy and back before field repair units were even a thing in the game, stop trying to make it sound like things are "essential" equipment

That was before planetary landing became a thing. Honestly, flying around out there there was very little chance of damage. But with every world having different levels of gravity, the risk increases. It may not be "essential" to some--I could certainly live without it, but for some planning a long expedition they'd be wary of leaving it behind in 2.0.

Don't take SRVs with you if you are scared you'll need a repair unit, there is nothing in game says you HAVE to drive about on planets or that you NEED to perform repairs while out there.

If you WANT to do both those things, buy a bigger ship.

And "dont' take SRVs if you're scared". You basically just said "Don't play Horizons" because that's what Horizons IS. No explorer, new or old to the game is going to want to pass up the chance to land and drive on whatever awesome world they might come across.

Yes, you could buy a bigger ship, but do you want Explorers to feel limited to flying about in Asps or Anacondas? What's wrong with a bit more flexibility in your choice of ship options? All combining the scanners would do (or making the DSS a utlity slot) would mean you have the SAME options you had in 1.4 and earlier, not FEWER.