Well, if there is incompetence on the code some had put in there, that would be how it would be found. Side of that for being trough the night with Sean Tracy tracking down one possible major issue, it's helping, for such major issue that seems to be the cause of much of the instability it's odd it wasn't been found yet.
The Star Citizen Thread v 4
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Well, if there is incompetence on the code some had put in there, that would be how it would be found. Side of that for being trough the night with Sean Tracy tracking down one possible major issue, it's helping, for such major issue that seems to be the cause of much of the instability it's odd it wasn't been found yet.
This post made me laugh.
In fact, I now think CR goal has simply become to out Elite, Elite. It has certainly morphed from his original pitch and his past Movies-with-gameplay-cutscenes-approach. The only thing that could make that possible is folks throwing $150 MUSD at CR and ignoring ED and other games like IB that barely got kickstarted with comments like "SC takes almost all my gaming budget, sorry I only backed for $10". Oh wait, that is exactly what is happening. So for me I wish SC backers no harm or loss, but man why isn't ED being flooded with cash by the SC fools putting in thousands? Some have, many here have, but where are the ED whales? I'm searching for them, hoping for them, come on guys and gals, open those wallets and buy every paint job FD offers and 3 copies of the game.
2.0 is all interesting but what is more entertaining than the videos of odd bugs like ships falling apart, is comments like the above, made in another game's forums (the Elite forums), talking up SC. Specifically comments extolling the virtues of misleading consumers and even outright lies as normal business.
We don't live in the year 1200 when folks could only resort to violence to get "justice" and fair play. No, modern thinkers in developed countries think that businesses should not be allowed to have deceptive marketing. Thus we have courts, trade commissions, official offices that look into deceptive trades practices and advertising regulations that prohibit lies and try to put maximum limit on misleading claims, images and innuendo.
I expect there are a lot of hypocritical SC WK's who if they paid a doctor to cure their illness today based on doctor statement that cure will take one week would be ready to sue, spread ill will and badmouth that doctor publicly when two months later they are still not cured. Doctor is incompetent, liar, etc. They just cannot say they would do otherwise or they reveal themselves to be utter fools. Same if buying a car or ordering a pizza that comes 2 hours later, cold and with wrong toppings.
It is just amazing to read a CIG fan say it is OK for any business to be deceptive it is standard marketing 101. OMG.
I am enjoying watching SC 2.0 progress. Seems CIG finally took another lesson from FD on how to develop their game, release big space area for testing the fighting and initial balance pass on ships. But still seems a very long way to go after ED got that done two years ago on 1/3 the devs and budget. So this along with design and UI cues and all the design answers I have heard in the last two years sound just like CR read all the DDF stuff from ED.
In fact, I now think CR goal has simply become to out Elite, Elite. It has certainly morphed from his original pitch and his past Movies-with-gameplay-cutscenes-approach. The only thing that could make that possible is folks throwing $150 MUSD at CR and ignoring ED and other games like IB that barely got kickstarted with comments like "SC takes almost all my gaming budget, sorry I only backed for $10". Oh wait, that is exactly what is happening. So for me I wish SC backers no harm or loss, but man why isn't ED being flooded with cash by the SC fools putting in thousands? Some have, many here have, but where are the ED whales? I'm searching for them, hoping for them, come on guys and gals, open those wallets and buy every paint job FD offers and 3 copies of the game.
2.0 is all interesting but what is more entertaining than the videos of odd bugs like ships falling apart, is comments like the above, made in another game's forums (the Elite forums), talking up SC. Specifically comments extolling the virtues of misleading consumers and even outright lies as normal business.
We don't live in the year 1200 when folks could only resort to violence to get "justice" and fair play. No, modern thinkers in developed countries think that businesses should not be allowed to have deceptive marketing. Thus we have courts, trade commissions, official offices that look into deceptive trades practices and advertising regulations that prohibit lies and try to put maximum limit on misleading claims, images and innuendo.
I expect there are a lot of hypocritical SC WK's who if they paid a doctor to cure their illness today based on doctor statement that cure will take one week would be ready to sue, spread ill will and badmouth that doctor publicly when two months later they are still not cured. Doctor is incompetent, liar, etc. They just cannot say they would do otherwise or they reveal themselves to be utter fools. Same if buying a car or ordering a pizza that comes 2 hours later, cold and with wrong toppings.
It is just amazing to read a CIG fan say it is OK for any business to be deceptive it is standard marketing 101. OMG.
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It's not any standard, no, it is yet, something that happens, i replied like that because it's implied this kind of marketing is a Crime, witch is not, it's always pushed as far as possible. It's unfortunately a growing trend on the industry that CIG unfortunately pushes to follow.
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He claimed to have done all the physics himself, had it "in the can" back in the kickstarter. And that could very well be true as he is obviously smart.
Having the CEO of a 300+ dev team effort going over the team's code could be demoralizing, and should be embarrassing. Of course it very much depends on how it is done and the feedback given, if any.
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But sometimes it is a crime. Personally, I think changing TOS and some commitment tied to that and defacto saying it applies to contracts already executed in the past is fraud and is a crime. Car makers cannot change your warranty terms after you buy a car- that is fraud.
Just because it is not prosecuted does not mean it is legal. That is just basic life. Like a neighbor that threatens to sue you to follow some zoning law, if you don't and they have to open their wallet to hire an attorney, take time off work to go to court, etc. it usually isn't worth it to most folks. This is why regulatory agencies and enforcement are important.
I know we shouldn't talk about other posters, but seriously, the verbiage you are using is implying exactly that you think it is OK because "everyone does it" and other faulty logic.
That is nice to see. Good stuff like the ED point releases.
I am curious what comes next in their Prio order? Persistence? Trade and economy? Travel to other systems? More RNG encounters? Planetary landings to the "social module"? How will the hangar integrate into the persistent game world- is the player able to teleport around or will they always start where they last saved like in Elite?
It seems they will take some sort of analogous approach as FD did with iterating on the base system to get to an actual persistent game.
Changing TOS is not a crime, any company can do it, with or without warning their costumers/etc, the deal with that is that, if you don't warn about a change, then the costumers have the full power to refute the new TOS, this is, if the refund policy changed they can't force you to apply by the new one. Usually things like that do not change, on my country we have the most annoying practice of companies changing their contract terms on things like ISPs, TV Services, etc... That's how this marketing works, things are placed in a way, it just becomes discuss-able and opinion based how that applies to regulations, etc...
I am not OK with that, but i live with it. It is what it is, the logical thing for me is that they won't change the way they work with Marketing while they keep making millions and millions out of it. It really applies to that at the end, complain about that will not change it, believe me, there is many active and supportive backers who also hate this. So do what, i just live with it, all that stuff is not to blame on the actual developers and the game their creating.
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I think you are right but, to be fair, what makes this rather standard behaviour less palatable than usual is that CR sold himself and this project under the pretence of being fundamentally adverse to this type of behaviour and there they are doing it. It's like their EA shop. It was meant to be a quip at Electronic Arts but as it turns out, the joke is on us (the backers).
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Sorry to pick on you but exchanges where folks don't see eye to ey is often why this forum is fun. Mr. Nowak seems to be lying low on the outlandish claims of late and just relaying positive information, which is a good strategy and useful to me. Trying to defend CIG shenanigans is kinda pointless.
ED had 2 million kickstarter and somewhere between 12-14 MGBP total cost over 2 years to deliver ED 1.0 fully functioning. They spent about 10 MGBP over the last year for all updates and Horizons planetary landing work.
I see a difference in efficiency, effectiveness and actually having a working plan compared to SC.
Even if you had to scrap the whole plan a couple months after the Kickstarter due to the huge cash influx and a decision to change priorities, it could have been done much cleaner, to prevent claims of fraud and to really be transparent. How? Be transparent and tell backers that the plan is changing, the game will not come out for 3 years, a major engine re-write needs to be started, and they are free to get a refund if they don't agree, etc.
CIG did everything but that. This is one reason why early backers and even not so early backers are twerked up about CR and his shenanigans.
2.0 is nice, and really it is where they should have been with a LOT LESS money and several years ago. Someone else made the point that Arena Commander feedback was basically ignored for a year. Indeed AC should have been the starting point and building block for the actual persistent game world. Instead, in a very non-transparent way CR kept claiming the game would be out in 2014 even in early 2014 and was not clear about the major cost of challenges and rework he was spending backer money on.
If there was just more honesty and if CIG had offered to refund everyone that bought in when they changed the TOS (more than once), if the backer didn't like the new deal, then there would be less angst I think. That and less puffery about the BDSSE and stuff theyare doing first that is just baloney. Only thing they will do first is push higher poly count and machine working detail in a game. Whether that adds to the finished game or not is yet to be seen. The flight model tom-foolery with rotating thruster delays and such indicates to me a lot of the detail may have minimal or even negative effects and could have been added after a stable working core was released... ships been reworked lots of times anyway, why not make them work first and then rework them with more "cool" features.
Too bad they wasted so much "little backer" money, literally wasted, with poor planning and rework needed.
CIG to me gets an award for the most non-transparent, transparent game dev ever. But still, it looks like it might all start to come together "soon".
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But that is a big issue. You should not "just live with it" as an avid supporter of the game you should expect more of CIG and you should tell them that and you should say it here and then just drop it. you cannot defend CIG with all your energy over dumb stuff like this. Just say it like it is and admit those actions are crap.
Tip- I criticized FD over the offline mode change and refunds after the fact (among other things, and here on the FD forums). They were short handed and trying to ramp up more support for launch, but I posted on these forums they should daily search the support tickets for refund requests and just process them without hassle to keep the forums and publicity from becoming toxic. FD did not. It was not right imho. Doing that might cost some money but far better in the long run. So see- it is easy to do and I will never defend FD for hassling backers that wanted offline mode and then wanted out when FD revealed they were not going to offer a truly offline mode.
And yes, when you change TOS it is legal but you have to notify the consumer and tell them the remedies on offer. Did CIG clearly do this at each TOS change? And what about folks that back and then generally don't check until at or near release? Did CIG email them or make any effort to say- hey we are doing something we totally did not advertise and game will be at least 2 years delayed instead of out in 2 years.
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It really has nothing to do with Mr. Nowak lying or not, i simply have a different view and opinion of that.
The difference is that Roberts wanted really to push it as most as it can, he saw people were willing to support further, and from sudden, the original Kickstarter had a major jump in terms of what would be the promised delivery. On that, highly requested by their own backers would be their claim, and the famous vote where if i remember +85% of the backers who voted asked to keep the crowdfund and do more stretch goals over it, that just did it. That's why i said, having those 100M since day one would put the scope since day 1 on the right level, and so the development plan, this was all a game that scaled on ambition with its funding number, that had stopped, as we see, after it's considered fully funded at the 65M mark.
I agree that 2.0 could have happened quite some time ago, it didn't, but hopefully it is happening now, bad would be have a confirmation that the game developing was falling apart and without progress shown by, well, releasing none of it. It's certainly slowly, but it's happening.
That really doesn't "grind my gears", it's mostly, not liking it, over actually caring about it to that extent, i don't. They would only get that message if the funding did stop from sudden, and people want the game more than they are bothered by this things so, it's ongoing. The TOS bit there's many, specially web-services and MMOs to do this changes kinda silently, for i have a dedicated hosted server and ran some emailing stuff on it, seems months later the company changing their terms so there would be a limit to email applications ran by the clients, didn't updated nobody about it, i got my service cancelled.... i knew i weren't updated, i shown the tos that i agreed with when i got the service back and i still run the application over their current set limit. So they can do it, but it's not hard to work around it when that's the case.
Interestingly enough you can find some of the more extreme offline-gaters hanging around the cheat forums still talking about "bringing elite down" for taking away offline mode. They seem more miffed about being robbed of the opportunity to hack the game offline than anything else. I think there were more people demanding refunds to make a point than actually seeking refunds, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the refunded bought back in.
I don't disagree with your assessment of FD's handling of it, they could definitely have let people know earlier (personally I never cared either way, the game was still in development and as such subject to change). I just doubt the motivation of the most vocal one's based on what they are still saying (I'm not pointing the finger at you).
I was just making light-hearted reference you replacing Mr. Nowak as the torch-bearer to defend all things CIG. Nothing personal meant really.
But you see, the scope of ED has always been what the scope of Star Citizen has become, with perhaps the exception of SQ42 not being in ED plans (I think that is an oversight and early on posted that FD could produce a stand-alone single person campaign with more story driven elements as a compliment to Elite, but I digress).
So ED has always had planetary landings, walking around, "big game hunting", 1:1 scale, planets with orbits and weather, etc. as part of the scope. Did it throw FD into fits and spasms and throwing everything out and starting over when they started the project or got to Power Play or Horizons? No. Because they know how to manage projects and plan for scope growth in the future.
CR indicated early on he had similar plans, but here again we see backers game-splaining away the mis-steps of the seasoned industry veteran surrounded by similarly experienced game development pros with a multi-million dollar budget. CR started with a $23 MUSD plan, and hopes for like $2 MUSD kickstarter, so the plan didn't really blow up for some time after kickstarter, when the train should have been already unstoppable.
It shows the tendency in the leader and CEO to perfection and scope creep to unplanned features, and thaat is what it seems caused Digital Anvil to collapse under CR leadership over a decade ago.
And it doesn't matter how many folks agree with CR change via a vote. If a company changes TOS or major expected delivery by years, they are obligated to offer their customers that bought in under different terms some remedies/ refund. There just really is NO excuse to not do that. When you sign a contract it is between you and the company delivering, not you and 700K other persons. Trust me, I have been involved in contract litigation for instance with a home owner's association where this exact issue comes up- a major change in terms takes really 100% agreement or a buy out of dissenters or courts will generally take a very dim view of it. Such is contract law.
Of course CR statements that "more money just means we deliver more goals in the same time" turns out not so true. Not an exact quote but that is pretty close to what he said. Again, why long-time backers would be getting 'fed up'.
Just don't try to defend stuff like that. It is a no-win situation in logic and in the FD forums. I think most persons here want SC to succeed and push FD to do more faster. But of course FD doesn't have the cash stash that CIG does, nor the staff, so some folks I think are envious of the rabid whales floating so much cash to CR for what we see versus what FD has actually delivered on far less. I probably fall into that camp but try to be fair and not hypocritical.
So, what is next for CIG after they get SC2.0 Alpha stable?
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Didn't bother me. I was more worried about FD being honorable because I want to love them. But things like that make it harder sometimes...
There are other mis-steps, but since this is the SC forum, I won't bring up my other complaints. Overall I think FD have done stellar work, and it is hard to run a small business like this. FD ran a loss while getting ED out the door- it was a "bet the company" gamble. I for one am super glad that so far it has paid off and hope FD continues to have success.
It's mostly on ambition there, FD of course follows a much more safe path, very little info, open to many possibilities but with no certainty about what will the future of ED hold. SC was and is to deliver more, this, by release, like there was a ton of people waiting for someone to try to do it, to grow ambitious and try to do something big that nobody else has done before, and the support that came from it was incredible, this also because they did a very smart move with the FPS part of the game, it identifies with more casual players that wouldn't be interested on it otherwise.
What's next then, it's said after 2.0, stabilizing the multi-player and stuff, they already kinda have a roadpmap for 2.1 to be the first steps of persistence, this is, Shopping, possibility clothing, character creation/customization area the things that hint more from it. This single instance map that is 2.0 is pretty much that base, once they get that right, it's about can expand it, and i think this is what they will do until they expand to the whole solar system until the moment we will be able to land on arccorp and use things to use jump points to different solar systems is another thing just under the works, this because Nyx that is also on the works, with its land-able area (that asteroid mining platform kind of thing) is almost ready.
As laudable as it is that CR and one of his top men found these bugs I'd really be cross if I were him having to get down into the weeds of the code to find things that my staff haven't. It is laudable honestly and I'm chuffed that he does this but from what I understand of the man I can't imagine he would be pleased to be finding these things himself.
I know I wouldn't be pleased in my day job.
I know I wouldn't be pleased in my day job.
Ambition should not be confused with foolhardiness
. FD's plan is very ambitious, but credible and considered. As for CIG, thes have been INcredibly ambitious, wildly ambitious, and have yet to live up to their goals; I've only played a pretty but mediocre space shooter painfully bad game pad controls so far.
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Even if that is what happened, you shouldn't be announcing it, because of the implication it makes publicly about the debugging skills of the development team. It also sends out signals that their are serious issues that require the top man to be hands on coding instead of focusing on the strategic side. For me, this is the wrong signal to be sending out when you have started to make real headway with showing people a game loop.
I guess his wife is the leading the project.
So Patch J just released on PTU, with more tangible progress on stability, play sessions greatly increased since last patches on this one! It's so odd your Frames are locked to the server performance, if the server derps, goodbye frames.
It's known he does dig on the code of the game, and he certainly controls what's up with it. Now it all depends how he actually acts towards it, that nobody here knows, if he just likes to dig in and help or if he's annoyed at the performance of the dozens of QA and more dozens of developers involved into this process. So yeah can be good or bad depending on the context that we don't have, Sean Tracy was on the Discord chat about parts of the code CR is responsible for.
Certainly like is Roberts joining the actual PTU and playing around, some people around got to play with him, what is cool. Side of that Patch K Released today with somewhat better stability, if so, you'll likely be your invite tomorrow.
It's known he does dig on the code of the game, and he certainly controls what's up with it. Now it all depends how he actually acts towards it, that nobody here knows, if he just likes to dig in and help or if he's annoyed at the performance of the dozens of QA and more dozens of developers involved into this process. So yeah can be good or bad depending on the context that we don't have, Sean Tracy was on the Discord chat about parts of the code CR is responsible for.
Certainly like is Roberts joining the actual PTU and playing around, some people around got to play with him, what is cool. Side of that Patch K Released today with somewhat better stability, if so, you'll likely be your invite tomorrow.
But remember: PvP is a bannable offense in SC.
I backed star citizen and i backed elite. But i also spend more money on sc then elite. Why? I really dont know what to buy from the elite store.
I buyed a lot sc merchandise, like the constellation model, some tshirts the patches and the mouse pads (which are awesome). At Elite i just buyed the game (twice, so i have a copy for my guest pc),the dvd box and some skins, but iam sad that i spend money on these skins, they are not really creative (Hey yeah, make the colorfull skin pack less colorfull and call it military
) and it is bad that they dont fit on all ships. Additional iam a little dissapointed how they handled the horizon sell (They are seperating the playbase with features locked by a paywall ->my opinion<-) and i dont like to pay so much extra cash just to be allowed to be a unpaid betatester/bugreporter.The FD store does not know how to make me hot i guess so that i spend more money. Maybe some cool models of some ships would make me buy something more. (Yeah an nice anaconda model for my desk *-*)
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