Will the Horizons Season actually fix the Bounty Exploit?

[Lazerus Artificial]

I just remembered this topic while i was on reddit...we had it several times here in the past, all the "bounty exploits", the flaws with the whole system...and we never got a response, the only "change" was that you cant pay your own bounty, but the system is still broken.

So let me summarize it again...
Bounty and Fines are currently a fixed value, i dont know what it is exactly since im not a killer, but i think its 100cr for friendly fire and 10.000cr for a kill or so.
Now where exactly starts the issue? Well, the bounty isnt scaling. Killing a Sidewinder provides the same Bounty as killing a Type 9.
The difference is, that a sidewinder is extremely cheap, while a T9 is one of the more expensive ships, not to mention the value of the cargo.
So why isnt killing a large, expensive ship worth "more"?
Thats the first flaw with the system. Now the exploit that is there since...well...ever

When a player with a bounty gets killed, the full bounty can be paid out to the hunter. Sounds fair right? Think again, the problem is, that the pirate can switch to a sidewinder, get killed, the hunter gets the full payout while the pirate looses the price for a tiny little sidewinder.

So, the trader lost several millions in commodities, and his ship rebuy, while the pirate gets a few thousand credits bounty that his friend can then claim without them loosing anything. they can actually make profit through that. They dont have a reason to let the trader live, when they can make profit through killing him.
So its a completely broken system that gets abused, is exploitable, and is overall unfair for the balance between trading and murder-pirating.

But how could it be fixed?

Original suggestion

Spoiler

We know that ship prices are saved, if we buy a ship with 10% discount, we sell it for the same amount. So the bounty for killing should be exactly that value + whatever was left in his cargo. but wait, wouldnt that increase the issue with a friend claiming all of that bounty? Well, here starts part two.

Bounty payout shouldnt be "all for one kill", instead it should again be based on the value of the destroyed ship.
So if a pirate destroys a ship worth 10.000.000cr, he will get those 10M as bounty on his head.
If that pirate then dies in a ship worth 50.000cr, the bounty gets reduced by that exact amount, he would still have 9.950.000cr bounty left on his head, the hunter could then claim those 50k credits.
If the pirate wants to switch to a cheap ship to "exploit" it again, he couldnt. A ship worth 1.000cr would again decrease his bounty by that amount.
This would then repeat until either the full bounty is claimed and the murderer lost ships worth the same amount as his kill, OR when the pirate wasnt scanned by someone who could claim that bounty (the 7days rule). If someone scans him and detects that bounty, the timer resets back to 7 days, if the pirate then gets killed it turns into an inactive bounty until someone scans him again.

That way there would be finally a fair balance between trading, pirating and murdering. a trader might loose some of his cargo because the pirate stole it, while the pirate might get a fine for illegal cargo, but neither of them would loose a huge amount of money through a murder crime. a bounty hunter would then be rewarded for killing those large "pirate lords" who kill for fun, punishing them for their crimes while getting rewarded with a good amount of money.

the only issue left would then be "hiding in private or solo" until Sarah unleashes her skynet AI...then we are all screwed

Psycho Romeo's Idea

When the criminal is shot down
-Immediately subtract claimable bounty from the criminal's standing credit balance
-Give an equal amount as a bounty claim to the hunter
-Subtract an equal amount from the criminal's bounty record

The key is that no credits are being created out of nothing, and nothing is forgiven for free. This resolves the exploit, and turns it into a trade at best. Example:

Criminal:
400k in the bank, flying an a rated eagle
20k rebuy
40k local bounty
600k total interstellar bounty

If that criminal is shot down, they will immediately lose 40k from their bank, which turns into a claimable award for the killer.
Then they must spend 20k rebuy to get their ship back.

However in this situation, if the criminal is KWSd before being shot down, they would immediately lose 600k from their bank.
But they can't afford that, because they only have 400k in the bank.
In this case, 400k worth of claimable awards are given to the killer, and is immediately subtracted from the criminal's bank and bounty record.
However, the criminal still has 200k worth of bounty on record. On top of that, their bank account is now 0cr and unless they can get a loan, they won't be able to afford their rebuy, sending them back to a stock sidewinder.

 

[raok]

The rebuy based system sounds ok.

The only issue is, that what if I start PvE piracy? Then I destroy couple law enforcer as well. I gather rather high bounties rather fast. Couple Anacondas and I have 50mil bounty to be paid.

You take a mission to kill 6 civilians, and that already will increase your bounty rather lot. Missions should be then very rewarding, to counter all the negative side effects.

I like the idea in many ways, because you have to choose, either you are a good guy or a bad guy. The issue is, there is even less content for the pirates atm.


But I admit that the current system does not work, might be even buggy. But the idea is ok and I think FD should at least think about it.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

The rebuy based system sounds ok.

The only issue is, that what if I start PvE piracy? Then I destroy couple law enforcer as well. I gather rather high bounties rather fast. Couple Anacondas and I have 50mil bounty to be paid.

You take a mission to kill 6 civilians, and that already will increase your bounty rather lot. Missions should be then very rewarding, to counter all the negative side effects.

I like the idea in many ways, because you have to choose, either you are a good guy or a bad guy. The issue is, there is even less content for the pirates atm.


But I admit that the current system does not work, might be even buggy. But the idea is ok and I think FD should at least think about it.

PVE wouldnt be that much different i think, atleast i had no system so far where i had busieness with something, so i could just wait a week to pay it off.
obviously with a scaled system that would be a lot, so it would be 2 weeks i guess? 1 week bounty 1 week fine? dont know how it works.

another way to solve that PVE issue would be to change those "NPC Hunting Missions", either that your contractor pays that bounty when you finish the mission, so that you have no disadvantage (it was his contract right?), so you would have that bounty only WHILE hunting, but not anymore once that mission is finished. He would take full responsibility.
Maybe just a small bounty on you then for being a "hired murderer", but not the full amount.

Hunting them for fun would be the full bounty on your head then (like shooting that annoying funeral barge)

Or that those missions would count as a new type, just like smuggling isnt regular trading, Civilian hunting would be a "Piracy Job"

 

[golan]

The proposed solution doesn't actually fix some bigger issues with money farmers. This would provide them an easy way to claim big bounties on their heads, made obvious in both the original post and one of the replies. They can then hide out until some player that paid them cash comes for them and lets that player kill them for the bounty, put up a fight just so that it's not that obvious.

The bounties were reduced to prevent such behaviour, I guess, and it does have the unpleasant effect of making pirating to seem extremely unbalanced for the victims. However, as a victim you also have better alternatives now then we had in the past. By submitting to the interdiction, you can jump out of the system way before any similar sized ship pirate can take your shields down. My shield is class 3 in a Python and with one shield booster, it lasted against 3 medium ships active in PP interdictions just enough for me to jump out of the system. But I don't exactly always submit, because another change in the system makes it difficult to interdict ships of different size than yours (it's easier to outmanoeuvre when being interdicted). Repairing is a lot cheaper than it was 6 months ago or more. As such, you actually have better tools today to resist and pirating is really not that profitable.

So maybe the fix should be different. I'm curious to see what ED plans to do about this, it surely can't remain like this for long.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

You take a mission to kill 6 civilians, and that already will increase your bounty rather lot. Missions should be then very rewarding, to counter all the negative side effects.

You are doing it wrong.

There are wanted civilians, kill them instead of innocent ones.

Don't try to fix what is not broken, but rather that which you don't understand.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I think a simpler solution would be to not release any more bounty than the perpetrator can afford. A criminal will be stuck in a sidewinder for a very long time if they die without bounty+insurance.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

The proposed solution doesn't actually fix some bigger issues with money farmers. This would provide them an easy way to claim big bounties on their heads, made obvious in both the original post and one of the replies. They can then hide out until some player that paid them cash comes for them and lets that player kill them for the bounty, put up a fight just so that it's not that obvious.

The bounties were reduced to prevent such behaviour, I guess, and it does have the unpleasant effect of making pirating to seem extremely unbalanced for the victims. However, as a victim you also have better alternatives now then we had in the past. By submitting to the interdiction, you can jump out of the system way before any similar sized ship pirate can take your shields down. My shield is class 3 in a Python and with one shield booster, it lasted against 3 medium ships active in PP interdictions just enough for me to jump out of the system. But I don't exactly always submit, because another change in the system makes it difficult to interdict ships of different size than yours (it's easier to outmanoeuvre when being interdicted). Repairing is a lot cheaper than it was 6 months ago or more. As such, you actually have better tools today to resist and pirating is really not that profitable.

So maybe the fix should be different. I'm curious to see what ED plans to do about this, it surely can't remain like this for long.

well, you can never fix all of it, but alteast with the described method the criminal wouldnt make profit from his own bounty.
if he has a 1.000.000cr bounty on his head, he would need to loose ships with that value.
sure, you could "pay them" so that you can kill them, but why would you?
if the "hunter" pays the criminal for an easy kill, the hunter would get ±0 out of it, while the pirate would have no rebuy cost. thats an issue that you simply cant fix.
but atleast then the "hunter" wouldnt make 1M profit by shooting down a single sidewinder

also it was not about "money farmers" it was about making profit through a mechanic that should punish you. if you have 10M bounty and sacrifice 1600cr for a stock sidewinder that your friend shoots down, your friend would make 10M profit while the criminal looses 1600cr (and the trader a lot more), if he then shares 50/50 you would both make around 5M profit each (- 1600cr for the criminal)...and thats not how a "punishment" works. the criminal should loose those 10M in some way, let it be through ship-rebuy or through his own hard cash.

I think a simpler solution would be to not release any more bounty than the perpetrator can afford. A criminal will be stuck in a sidewinder for a very long time if they die without bounty+insurance.

what exactly do you mean by that?
when you shoot down the criminal with 1M bounty, the criminal would loose up to 1M from his own cash that is then paid out as reward when the hunter claims it? basically a hybrid between what we have now and what i have suggested, still the full payout for a single kill, but the criminal would loose an equal amount of money?
mhhh that could work too, but the bounty the criminal has would have to be "frozen" so that he cant just spend it before someone claims it. basically like Fallout 4 Radiation, if you have 5M cash and 1M bounty, you could only spend 4M total, you wouldnt have access to that 1M. i think that would indeed be easier and would result in the same punishment

 

[Psycho Romeo]

when you shoot down the criminal with 1M bounty, the criminal would loose up to 1M from his own cash that is then paid out as reward when the hunter claims it?

When the criminal is shot down
-Immediately subtract claimable bounty from the criminal's standing credit balance
-Give an equal amount as a bounty claim to the hunter
-Subtract an equal amount from the criminal's bounty record

The key is that no credits are being created out of nothing, and nothing is forgiven for free. This resolves the exploit, and turns it into a trade at best. Example:

Criminal:
400k in the bank, flying an a rated eagle
20k rebuy
40k local bounty
600k total interstellar bounty

If that criminal is shot down, they will immediately lose 40k from their bank, which turns into a claimable award for the killer.
Then they must spend 20k rebuy to get their ship back.

However in this situation, if the criminal is KWSd before being shot down, they would immediately lose 600k from their bank.
But they can't afford that, because they only have 400k in the bank.
In this case, 400k worth of claimable awards are given to the killer, and is immediately subtracted from the criminal's bank and bounty record.
However, the criminal still has 200k worth of bounty on record. On top of that, their bank account is now 0cr and unless they can get a loan, they won't be able to afford their rebuy, sending them back to a stock sidewinder.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

When the criminal is shot down
-Immediately subtract claimable bounty from the criminal's standing credit balance
-Give an equal amount as a bounty claim to the hunter
-Subtract an equal amount from the criminal's bounty record

The key is that no credits are being created out of nothing, and nothing is forgiven for free. This resolves the exploit, and turns it into a trade at best. Example:

Criminal:
400k in the bank, flying an a rated eagle
20k rebuy
40k local bounty
600k total interstellar bounty

If that criminal is shot down, they will immediately lose 40k from their bank, which turns into a claimable award for the killer.
Then they must spend 20k rebuy to get their ship back.

However in this situation, if the criminal is KWSd before being shot down, they would immediately lose 600k from their bank.
But they can't afford that, because they only have 400k in the bank.
In this case, 400k worth of claimable awards are given to the killer, and is immediately subtracted from the criminal's bank and bounty record.
However, the criminal still has 200k worth of bounty on record. On top of that, their bank account is now 0cr and unless they can get a loan, they won't be able to afford their rebuy, sending them back to a stock sidewinder.

ah yeah, then i understood it correctly, and i totally agree with that.
it would then be a punishment, not a bonus. pirating would be pirating then, not killing with loot.
but do you think that the bounty-amount should stay as it is now with a fixed value where every kill is worth the same, or do you think it would be better to let it scale on the killed ships rebuy cost?

its even more fun if you think about the thought process
Trader: Oh no a Pirate, please dont kill me
Pirate: I killed him...oh no a Hunter, please dont scan me

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Should a portion of the ship's worth be put into the bounty? I'd have to say no. It would be way too easy to bury someone in debt.

I honestly don't know what the factors should be. I think it should pull a tiny bit from a wide range of factors, such as target's local reputation, pilot's federation rank, ship rebuy, powerplay standing, a constant, and pilot's local reputation.

its even more fun if you think about the thought process
Trader: Oh no a Pirate, please dont kill me
Pirate: I killed him...oh no a Hunter, please dont scan me

I think that being scanned needs to be very, very, very dangerous and that this would only add to the experience.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Should a portion of the ship's worth be put into the bounty? I'd have to say no. It would be way too easy to bury someone in debt.

I honestly don't know what the factors should be. I think it should pull a tiny bit from a wide range of factors, such as target's local reputation, pilot's federation rank, ship rebuy, powerplay standing, a constant, and pilot's local reputation.


I think that being scanned needs to be very, very, very dangerous and that this would only add to the experience.

think so too, with what i described first the "rebuy cost faction" would be fine, but with your system it would be broken again. so yes, it should factor in a little bit.
the factors you mentioned are perfect i think, gives 1) a higher variety and not "the same" value for everyone and 2) it would make sense to increase your reputation. it could also factor your empire/federation standing (only when killed in those systems), i mean...a king should be worth more than an outsider.

i think then it would be a fair and balanced system, hunting would be fun then if even the NPC bounty variety would have a wider range

the one issue left then would be the "private / solo" play. normally im against differentiation there (like the suggestions that you cant get powerplay vouchers or cant play community goals in solo), but in this case i think the timer until the bounty vanishes should be increased in those modes, atleast as long as the AI has the derps. If the hunting AI becomes more and more dangerous, this differentiation could be removed. we know that sarah loves her minions, so its only a matter of time until they get the skynet update.