Some CMDRs are just mean....

[bigity]

Here's a neat idea, which I can't really see there being an argument against it, or it will simply prove my previous point...

- Commanders that "murder" another outside of CZs and Anarchy space simply lose the ability to see the distinction between NPCs and other commanders for a week (no hollow boxes in the scanner, dummy CDR names)

I think this would put a huge damper on griefing since the motivation would be utterly and completely lost.

Sure, they could try to guess who is an NPC and who isn't, but it would be fairly futile and an empty experience (the whole point...)

Uh...how about no. PvE mode is Solo/Private group.

 

[Maverick and Goose]

Here's a neat idea, which I can't really see there being an argument against it, or it will simply prove my previous point...

- Commanders that "murder" another outside of CZs and Anarchy space simply lose the ability to see the distinction between NPCs and other commanders for a week (no hollow boxes in the scanner, dummy CDR names)

I think this would put a huge damper on griefing since the motivation would be utterly and completely lost.

Sure, they could try to guess who is an NPC and who isn't, but it would be fairly futile and an empty experience (the whole point...)

I find other commanders to target and pirate by keeping my comms window open. This would affect me ZERO

 

[thorn-]

There are people who are just bored (mod did this, and no, they are not "bored", the real reason is far beyond that...) that get their jollies abusing and beating up on other people. They do it because they know it's hurtful to another living person (by definition, sadism), otherwise they would simply target NPCs. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill, they play with the specific goal to torment and cow other players.

Don't forget that sadism runs the gamut from emotional to physical abuse, and trolling for other non-combat willing/capable commanders to ram/abuse/kill is essentially emotional abuse, of a real person.

In an on-line game where you grief other players that don't wish to engage in combat, is real-world sadistic behavior, end of story.

You forgot "5 Cents Please".

ED is absolutely not a PvP-centric game, it is a exploration and wealth-building/ranking game, with a minuscule legitimate PvP aspect.

According to whom?

To combat the griefers, ED needs to have a much better way of distinguishing between players that have killed human commanders outside of "consensual" combat*, versus NPCs. Yes, it might be a tad immersion-breaking, but I'd have a murderer have a bright red box surrounding them

Perhaps you've missed the big red WANTED tag that pops up in a scan.

You want to play with fire, fine, you pay the price, and then see how much fun you'd have with the huge jump in bounty hunters that would sign-up to hunt you down. (I'd do it in a heartbeat, if such a system existed)

You think I'd complain? That would add some nice spice to the game. It would certainly be better than the current system which offers a wake scanner as the best (and pitiful) way to hunt another CMDR. It would be far more interesting if players were WANTED on a galaxy-wide level. If you could only pledge to one of the 3 powers, and risked being killed on sight, for trespassing. Instead, we got a Moon Buggy and another Asp, another Cobra, and another Viper.

This proposal will inevitably lead to whining about "But that's how I want to play the game..."

Who's whining in this particular exchange?

Here's the thing, bubba: you'll be attacked by countless NPCs in the game, and it's not always when it's convenient for you. You don't rage-quit, complain on forums, or call Sarah sadistic. You consider that "part of the game". At least I'm not able to endlessly spam chaff, jump with weapons hot, fire my lasers with no heat damage, and use railguns with endless ammo. It appears that what really has you annoyed is that you find a CMDR to actually be a dangerous threat - and one that cannot be dealt with by flying backwards.

Mobius is always an option for you.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Here's a neat idea, which I can't really see there being an argument against it, or it will simply prove my previous point...

- Commanders that "murder" another outside of CZs and Anarchy space simply lose the ability to see the distinction between NPCs and other commanders for a week (no hollow boxes in the scanner, dummy CDR names)

I think this would put a huge damper on griefing since the motivation would be utterly and completely lost.

Sure, they could try to guess who is an NPC and who isn't, but it would be fairly futile and an empty experience (the whole point...)

In this case there will be no one to blame once you got shut down by a cmdr because he simply could not distinguish you from npc.

 

[EDbubba]

I find other commanders to target and pirate by keeping my comms window open. This would affect me ZERO

No, it would essentially put you into "solo/open group" mode with zero feedback about anyone other than your wing, and as an added bonus, you would be tagged for death!

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In this case there will be no one to blame once you got shut down by a cmdr because he simply could not distinguish you from npc.

Ummm, you're really missing the point aren't you... The entire motivation in griefing is to specifically target other players, you don't "grief" an NPC unless you really have issues!

Without the visceral feedback of knowing you killed another player it becomes a pointless and empty exercise, ergo, you give up and quit doing it.

 

[EDbubba]

Perhaps you've missed the big red WANTED tag that pops up in a scan.

Local system only, basically useless, and it requires a scan. It needs to be much more in-your-face to be any kind of deterrent/risk for the griefer.

Here's the thing, bubba: you'll be attacked by countless NPCs in the game, and it's not always when it's convenient for you. You don't rage-quit, complain on forums, or call Sarah sadistic. You consider that "part of the game". At least I'm not able to endlessly spam chaff, jump with weapons hot, fire my lasers with no heat damage, and use railguns with endless ammo. It appears that what really has you annoyed is that you find a CMDR to actually be a dangerous threat - and one that cannot be dealt with by flying backwards.

NPCs are a farce, easily outmaneuvered and left behind. No comparison whatsoever to a determined (sadistic) player.


Bottom line is that I'm not saying it will never happen, but those that partake need to have significant consequences to their actions, currently, it's a joke.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

No, it would essentially put you into "solo/open group" mode with zero feedback about anyone other than your wing, and as an added bonus, you would be tagged for death!

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Ummm, you're really missing the point aren't you... The entire motivation in griefing is to specifically target other players, you don't "grief" an NPC unless you really have issues!

Without the visceral feedback of knowing you killed another player it becomes a pointless and empty exercise, ergo, you give up and quit doing it.

Perhaps you're entirely missing what griefing is. In general understanding it's the repeating harrasment of the same target by the same offender. Such cases are extremely rare in Elite and the term griefing is severely misused.

Also as anyone of us I killed far more npc ships than cmdrs. By doing the simple math you can see that your proposal increases the risk for cmdrs. Not that I have anything against it.

 

[EDbubba]

Uh...how about no. PvE mode is Solo/Private group.

Why?

Why do you specifically want to target and attack other players, most of which are probably not at all equipped for combat? If that's not the absolute definition of griefing, I don't know what is!

Pathetic...

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Perhaps you're entirely missing what griefing is. In general understanding it's the repeating harrasment of the same target by the same offender. Such cases are extremely rare in Elite and the term griefing is severely misused.

No, griefing is basically being an ass and involving yourself in other's affairs who don't want to have anything to do with you, and usually wanting to create mayhem and/or damage/kill the other player. Being a "" is probably the best term for it...

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Why?

Why do you specifically want to target and attack other players, most of which are probably not at all equipped for combat? If that's not the absolute definition of griefing, I don't know what is!

Pathetic...

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No, griefing is basically being an ass and involving yourself in other's affairs who don't want to have anything to do with you, and usually wanting to creating mayhem and/or damage.

No it is not what griefing is.

 

[thorn-]

NPCs are a farce, easily outmaneuvered and left behind. No comparison whatsoever to a determined (sadistic) player.

So you only enjoy facing opponents that have no chance of winning... who's the sadist?

Bubba, I'm not "griefing". Look up what the word means, as there's a difference.

I don't camp in front of a station and take pot shots. I don't combat log, ever. I don't know of some weird exploit, and use it to my advantage. I don't try to ram people as they're docking.

I don't even attack newbies in sidewinders who barely know which end of the tube the round comes out of (though this wouldn't be griefing, either. Just poor sportsmanship.) Haulers, T6/7/9s - those are of no interest to me, either.

But mount a KWS and Interdiction Unit on your ship, and that tells me you're looking for a fight. Which is great, but expect one more challenging than a Cobra armed with pulse lasers.

 

[EDbubba]

So you only enjoy facing opponents that have no chance of winning... who's the sadist?

Umm, no, if you want to disengage from NPCs, it's fairly trivial. An NPC wing of Anacondas would be a significant challenge no doubt, if you decided to engage them.

The point is that a player in a well-equipped fast ship could easily destroy most traders before they had a chance to high-jump. NPCs, even the "homicidal" ones, are usually saddled with mid-range equipment, and are basically clueless on how to stop a player from leaving the system.

 

[seeker89]

Well, this took off in many directions....
Over all it just brothers me that people would just attack me for what I see as no reason. I do like the idea around PvP, I think really what we need is a better system. Maybe like a message like this 'CMDR Gummee is requesting PvP with you, do you accept?' type system, maybe people who are wanted over a point gets it pushed galaxy-wide, or maybe a new rank system just for pirates with system unlocks and cool ships and gear to go with it. I would feel better about getting attack if there was something more for them then really nothing.

With the game even saying who killed you, I wouldn't mind some kind of CMDR bounty system. As exp... CMDR Gummee just killed me, I can go to the contracts at the station, and donate credits(more like sponsoring) to hunting him down killing him. this bounty would be seen at any station, and can be only claimed by another CMDR. Kinda like crowdfunding the bounty hunting system.

 

[EDbubba]

No it is not what griefing is.

Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users

You point was?

 

[thorn-]

With the game even saying who killed you, I wouldn't mind some kind of CMDR bounty system. As exp... CMDR Gummee just killed me, I can go to the contracts at the station, and donate credits(more like sponsoring) to hunting him down killing him. this bounty would be seen at any station, and can be only claimed by another CMDR. Kinda like crowdfunding the bounty hunting system.

Another idea which has been suggested many times - I agree, that would be great.

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Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users

You point was?

You left out the key part, in the sentence before: "using aspects of the game in unintended ways." I'm not abusing nor exploiting the game mechanics in any way.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users

You point was?

My point is keep reading. Educating yourself through the forum may be not such a bad idea.

May I suggest to try this link for example:

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Griefers

 

[EDbubba]

Well, this took off in many directions....
Over all it just brothers me that people would just attack me for what I see as no reason. I do like the idea around PvP, I think really what we need is a better system. Maybe like a message like this 'CMDR Gummee is requesting PvP with you, do you accept?' type system, maybe people who are wanted over a point gets it pushed galaxy-wide, or maybe a new rank system just for pirates with system unlocks and cool ships and gear to go with it. I would feel better about getting attack if there was something more for them then really nothing.

With the game even saying who killed you, I wouldn't mind some kind of CMDR bounty system. As exp... CMDR Gummee just killed me, I can go to the contracts at the station, and donate credits(more like sponsoring) to hunting him down killing him. this bounty would be seen at any station, and can be only claimed by another CMDR. Kinda like crowdfunding the bounty hunting system.

Great ideas, but you will still have the "rotten" core that feel the need to kill for no other reason that it makes them feel good.

We need structure in the game that makes that a viable "play style", but one that carries very large risks.

The stupid station "Speed limit" was introduced explicitly with the idea to stop griefers from ramming in/around stations, so we know that FD did realize it's an issue and acted on it, but hiding blatant griefing under the heading of "PvP" is just completely wrong.

 

[CariadocThorne]

There are people who are just bored (mod did this, and no, they are not "bored", the real reason is far beyond that...) that get their jollies abusing and beating up on other people. They do it because they know it's hurtful to another living person (by definition, sadism), otherwise they would simply target NPCs. It has absolutely nothing to do with skill, they play with the specific goal to torment and cow other players.

Don't forget that sadism runs the gamut from emotional to physical abuse, and trolling for other non-combat willing/capable commanders to ram/abuse/kill is essentially emotional abuse, of a real person.

In an on-line game where you grief other players that don't wish to engage in combat, is real-world sadistic behavior, end of story.

Before idiotic comparisons to CoD or other obvious PvP games comes up, ED is absolutely not a PvP-centric game, it is a exploration and wealth-building/ranking game, with a minuscule legitimate PvP aspect. The NPCs may act like a threat in the game, but they are utterly insignificant in impact compared to a motivated griefer.


To combat the griefers, ED needs to have a much better way of distinguishing between players that have killed human commanders outside of "consensual" combat*, versus NPCs. Yes, it might be a tad immersion-breaking, but I'd have a murderer have a bright red box surrounding them, both in the scanner and forward-view, galaxy-wide, for at least two weeks.

You want to play with fire, fine, you pay the price, and then see how much fun you'd have with the huge jump in bounty hunters that would sign-up to hunt you down. (I'd do it in a heartbeat, if such a system existed)

I could honestly give a crap if you like shooting up "clean" NPCs, maybe they were part of a mission, not for me to say, but killing other players is an utterly and completely different thing, and the current "Wanted" status is useless in that regard.

This proposal will inevitably lead to whining about "But that's how I want to play the game...", but I hate to break it to you princess, but that not how the vast majority of others (your potential victims), want to play the game, so you'll need to suck it up if that's "The way you want to play..."

*Obviously CZs and other unique circumstances where one would obviously expect armed opposition would be exempted, but all other general open space would be a no-go for trolling. (maybe Anarchy space is OK, but the trolls would get really bored waiting for someone to pass though...)


Lastly, if you say you want to roleplay, and be a "pirate", that's fine in theory, but the game does not really support this profession in any viable way, both from an income side (extortion, meaningful cargo theft, etc), nor from a consequence side (oooh, you're "wanted" in that system for a murder...)

Ok quit with the bad amateur psychology.

They (no, I'm not one of them) are an important and intended part of the games "eco-system".

I can't understand why people want to play in group or solo mode to avoid them, and I will consider it a huge shame when enough of them move on to other games that I stop running into one every now and then.

The one aspect that some of these kind of players can be guilty of which I do think needs to be stamped out is the abusive trashtalk, and so far I have seen very little of that in ED from the pirates and their kind. In fact, the only time I have seen that so far was from a wanted trader I interdicted while working on the CG in Hel yesterday, who hurled abuse at me for interdicting him, saying that his bounty was only for smuggling and I had no right to interdict him. I don't know if there is a way to see what the bounty is for, but quite frankly I couldn't care less. He was a legitimate wanted target, and I currently make most of my cred as a bounty hunter, so that makes him fair game in my eyes.

Every pirate who I have run into there has been perfectly polite and friendly (well, friendly within the context of someone trying to rob me), even the guy in the FDL who seemed to be getting quite annoyed with my feeble attempts to fight him (I'd stripped my combat DBS build to make room for cargo and to give me more jump range, so I was even less of a threat than I would normally be to a decently piloted FDL) rather than just dropping the 2 tons of cargo he was asking for.

I do occasionally rage after I get blown up by another player, but it is always momentary, and I always enjoy the gaming session more as a result of it. And the times I blow my attacker up.... Oh such sweet bliss.

 

[thorn-]

We need structure in the game that makes that a viable "play style", but one that carries very large risks.

We have one; just the other night, I got interdicted (while wanted) by a wing consisting of a Cutter, a Corvette, and an FDL. They were playing the role of militia, and I was a criminal in their system. I had no chance fighting against those odds, and they got me to 16% hull before I could jump out. It was a very large risk being in that system; I hope the confrontation was fun for the other CMDRs as well.

In fact, the only time I have seen that so far was from a wanted trader I interdicted while working on the CG in Hel yesterday, who hurled abuse at me for interdicting him, saying that his bounty was only for smuggling and I had no right to interdict him. I don't know if there is a way to see what the bounty is for, but quite frankly I couldn't care less. He was a legitimate wanted target, and I currently make most of my cred as a bounty hunter, so that makes him fair game in my eyes.

Just last night I was called a racist word I'd slap my adult son for saying... and CMDR NoShame-Nameless - I'd have killed you in front of the station police if I'd made it there in time.

 

[Iskariot]

I like this game, and I like being in open and see real people flying real ships and sometimes talking to me. But some people are just plain mean... I do know that pirating is in this game, and I think that is cool, it's not for me but cool. But when you drop me out of FSD, and demand my cargo but I don't have any cargo and you still start shooting me, then when I finally get out of there just to get to the station, where you met me and blow up my ship.... that's just mean.
(You know who are)

My rant comes with question, what do pirates get out of it? I know bounty hunters gets credits, but pirates?

fyl, mean wasn't the word I had in mind.... a jerk is more like it.

I am not a pirate myself. It is just not something I would do, but it is easy to understand that the interaction between pirate and victim is exciting... to both.
When a pirate properly roleplays then I think that has a place in the game. It adds to the experience of us all. I think it enriches the Elite universe.

Just destroying a virtually defenseless human trader is something that I find personally distasteful.
What's more it is very counter productive as it will make people go Solo.

The problem with all multiplayer gaming is that you never have to look far to find vermin who love to destroy the game of others.

 

[EDbubba]

We have one; just the other night, I got interdicted (while wanted) by a wing consisting of a Cutter, a Corvette, and an FDL. They were playing the role of militia, and I was a criminal in their system. I had no chance fighting against those odds, and they got me to 16% hull before I could jump out. It was a very large risk being in that system; I hope the confrontation was fun for the other CMDRs as well.

Awesome, but that bounty needs to be galaxy-wide, and then you'll have "fun".