Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments

[CannibalHoliday]

If someone considers having a trade computer is cheating, then maybe having a computer to simulate flying through space is cheating too

Why aren't they out in their back yard building an FTL capable space truck.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I completely support this. A long while ago now, Frontier said they want to fully develop an API for the community, and I'm pretty sure it has been more than a year since they first said that.

One of the problems here is that certain game mechanics are so obfuscated, trading and module locating for outfitting are great examples. I for one don't want to spend ages flying around from station to station, in the hopes I can find my desired module. At the same time, I don't want to have a "one button press" solution that will find said module for me. Frontier as a developer are responsible for coming up with game play for that.

But for now (in my opinion) we don't have any game play in any form for trading and module location. We do however have some basic game mechanics in place (flying from A to B), which a lot of people seem to mistake for actually game play.

The API tools resolve this problem, and regardless of whether people feel the are Cheat Tools, One-Hit-Solutions, Min/Maxing - etc. the fact remains that the holes in the game-play have made these tools a necessity for a lot of people.

With all that said, I would really like to hear from Frontier on this matter. Do they plan on keeping the community and development community up-to-date with what is going on with the API? Do they have future plans beyond "Yes we would like to work on that..."?

Elite is a great game, and for many people these tools make it a lot richer.

 

[CMDR Boozeman]

Rep for the all 3rd party tool developers. I use Coriolis, EDDN, EDDiscovery, EDSM, Trade Dangerous (with Maddavo's Market Share and local dp) and Inara for day to day basis. And what come about the API I do not just use the data. I will contribute it with sending new data everytime when I land.

About the lore..

I am man from Finland, this is year 2015, there's no sound, class 2 multi-cannons or even that shappy Cobra on space and the only Thargoids we have are lying behind the about 1340 km long eastern border of Finland ;-)

Disclaimer: The line above it is just warm and humorous sarcasm. In Finland we eat sarcasm at breakfast.

 

[FunGas]

Sites like coriolis and edshipyard are invaluable for describing loadouts. Elitetradingtool is extremely handy for searching for rare goods to return home with.
The trading data does vary with time, so they cannot be totally relied on for finding the highest profit trade routes, which is a good thing.

 

[wolverine2710]

Not sure if it helps but I remembered someone asking about the API in the latest reddit AMA with DB, managed to dig up the post:



https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/3wx239/david_braben_ask_me_anything/cxzknfs

Sounds like they are in favour of community built tools, but the API is another feature on the back burner for now?

Its in line with earlier statements by Michael Brookes. They apparently like/love to do this but its given a low priority. I've created multiple threads in the past to get more info about the status. A copy/paste part from a recent one (16th of September). On the 15th of January 2015 Michael Brookes invited everyone to give functionality suggestions for an official ED api, see the thread "[PROPOSAL DISCUSSION] External API Requirements" Thread. On February the 19th 2015 Michael wrote it would take a few weeks to evaluate it all (source). On the 22th of May in the thread "Any news on the official ED API?" he wrote the following about the API: "It's still on our radar, but it is low on the current priority list. If anything changes we'll let you know. Michael" Source.

Since last year multiple authors have created threads were we basically stated: We know creating a good official API takes time/resources increases cpu usage and bandwidth on the FD servers BUT we have a suggestion. A stop gap solution. One which creates basically NO extra cpu usage on the FD servers, does NOT increase bandwidth usage and is really quite easy to implement. My words as someone who makes a living as a Java software engineer. Basically dump the information seen on screen when opening it in an XML/JSON file and let the third party tools collect it and distribute it. For more and detailed information see the thread "Open letter to FD - Please DO actively support third-party tools". OP of that thread in the spoiler.

Spoiler

I'm writing this open letter in the sincere hope that we soon get (better) support from FD for third-party tools. Atm there are more then 100 tools in EDCodex.info - approx 210+ entries in total. I know for a fact that NOT all tools are in EDCodex. Active support by FD would mean an EXPLOSION of new and more varied tools.

In January Michael Brookes invited everyone to give functionality suggestions for an official ED api, see the thread "[PROPOSAL DISCUSSION] External API Requirements" Thread. On February the 19th 2015 Michael wrote it would take a few weeks to evaluate it all (source). On the 22th of May in the thread "Any news on the official ED API?" he wrote the following about the API: "It's still on our radar, but it is low on the current priority list. If anything changes we'll let you know. Michael" Source.

Atm there is little data for the third-pary tools they all centre around things like trading, logbook, shipyard. The community uses the following creative methods to retrieve data for the tools.

• OCR techniques. To extract market data from screenshots. The resulting .csv file can be imported in trading tools and market data is optionally sent to EDDN. Examples EliteOCR, Regulated Noise.
• Netlogs. When a debug flag is set in AppConfig.xml, tool authors can extract the current system a commander is docked in.
• iPhone web-api. This enables tool authors to retrieve market data, shipyard info, outfitting info and stats. They are also called OCR Error Free (OEF) tools. The three existing OEF tools: EDMC,EDAPI and EDCE) all emulate the official ED iPhone app released November 2014. EDMC stands for: Elite Dangerous Market Connector.
• Crowd sourced data. There is no official data about formulae used for for example fuel usage - needed for route planners. Shipyard tools have also resorted to crowd sourced data. Calculating 3D coordinates for a system is a pita as well. Especially after the GM distances have been reduced to 2 decimals.

The legal usage of the iPhone web-api is not 100% clear atm. An author of an OEF tool using the iPhone web-api asked if it would be allowed to temporarily use the iPhone web-api as long as the official External API has not surfaced, got the following answer from Michael Brookes on the 22th of May 2015: "It's being discussed. Michael" (source).

I can imagine that a full blown External API would take considerable time to create and test. What quite a few commanders have suggested in the past is the following as a good temporarily solution.

• Dump market data when you are docked at a station in a JSON/XML file.
• Dump the 3D coordinates of a system when you exit SC in a JSON/XML file.
• Dump docking status in a file.

This can be extended to ALL data which is visible on the screens. The data is already in the ED client otherwise it could NOT be displayed. Do this in the most simplified way possible. Just overwrite a JSON/XML file each and every time new data is available. This would be very easy to achieve. The community can write tools to extract that data and use it. Even the dumping of data could be made optional for each and every commander- setting in AppConfig.xml.

I personally think that ED would benefit hugely from a large and varied third-party tools ecosystem. When FD does not have the time to create ingame tools the community can pick up the gauntlet. An official anser/comment from FD about this would be highly appreciated.

Please do NOT turn this thread into a discussion about if you like or dislike third-party tools. There are quite a few threads where this has been discussed.What can be ofc discussed is what kind of data, now available on the screens/menus would be useful/essential for third-party tools.

To be in compliance with the FD rules I'm not supplying urls for OEF tool entries like Elite Dangerous Market Connector (EDMC) in EDCodex. A key feature of the website: Its heavily search engine optimized (SEO). Applying Google fu will be easy and effective.

Each and every time the response from FD is basically the same, no response and they let the thread bleed out. When asked about the official web-api from FD we get something along the line of what David Braben said, "we love the idea but no timeline mentioned". Why NOT help us to help you, create a dump API and let the third party market flourish.

The current Open Letter is perhaps a bit more direct. Please do tell us where we stand. Can we expect an API in say the next 6 months? Can we expect a dump API as a stop gap solution in say the next 3 months. If not can we get an official statement about the legality of the usage of the companion API? If its officially allowed even with the limited info it provides it will allow tool authors to continue using EDMC and EDDN and more data will come available and more tools will emerge. If its NOT allowed please DO tell us but DO tell us.

Tool authors can then decide if they continue using data coming from tools like EDMC which is very often distributed by the EDDN or not. 99% of the market data submitted to and distributed by EDDN is coming from companion app tools atm. All or nearly all shipyard and outfitting data submitted to and distributed by EDDN is coming from companion API tools. I highly expect FD to know all this as I assume they have checked out the EDDN-monitor. If FD wants they can make the companion tools officially illegal in a heart beat. They can say that EDDN is illegal as well. They can but they keep silent and letting tool authors in the situation that they don't know if what they are doing is illegal or not. NOT something what makes the third party tools market flourish. But perhaps that is what the intended goal is I don't know. I truly don't get it.

Edit: Corected the url to my open letter. you can read it now....

 

[VikMorroHun]

OMG, Spoiler sites, if a large part of the community can't play without them then there is a huge issue, gamers becoming too lazy to find traderoutes the old way ? How is it possible they are even sharing that data? Doesn't it completely spoil the game if everything is already on a website?

No. These tools help quite a bit to players like me, who don't have a lot time for ED to actually play the game and not just wandering around to get one crate of <insert any rare/quest item here>.

 

[mearmortal]

I'd like to add my support for an in-game API.

You don't even need to host an API server - you could have the game client host a local API.

A locally, game-client-hosted API would have a number of advantages;

1) As above, no need to run some AWS cloud-based API server

2) The local client obviously already has a whole host of information it needs to be part of the game

3) Automatic limitation of the information given to the system a player is in. (e.g. Market data is only available for the system the players is in).

4) The information given to a 3rd-party exploration app such as Captain's Log or EDDiscovery is again automatically limited to A) The system a player is in and B) What a player scans - so if an explorer for example jumps into a system, the only information the in-game API would supply initially is the star that's auto-discovered by the detailed scanner when you jump in. The API could then push info to the 3rd-party app as and when other bodies are scanned or discovered. Say the initial Space Honk - push whatever bodies are discovered by the ADS. Then you could push information as and when detailed scans are performed on the bodies themselves.

The examples in point 4 above are purely Quality of Life improvements - they're not turning the game into easy-mode.

So, yeah, let's have an API - but make it hosted by the game client rather than some external API server.

Regards o7

**********Absolutely Spot On************
I use TCE and I find it useful for my game experience, Yes it provides an advantage for me, but then I have visited these systems and collected the information.
How I gather it, by paper, or excel or dedicated program and manipulate the information for me is adding to my experience of the game.
It's not cheating for sure. It's called developing a strategy.

 

[Garbarrage]

I don't understand how using a third party API is anti lore or is cheating?

Simple.... it isn't. Those that think it's anti-lore, simply don't know the lore... Those that think it's cheating, have no grasp of logic.

It would be ridiculous to think that commodity markets wouldn't communicate with each other... in an advanced civilization whose economy centres on trade.

It seems FD and DB would agree.

 

[_jasta4_rough]

this is all nice and good but you'd think that in the year 3301 ppl would have the ability to build a trading computer that stores local goods offered in stations , random internet search lets me find the price of snake venom in thailand yet in the year 3301 i have to land in a station and use pen and paper to find goods im interested in......gg FD

 

[Ian Phillips]

I haven't actually found a market for snake venom in Elite Dangerous though

 

[n13L5]

To be frank, I wouldn't even be playing Elite if it wasn't for these guys.

Reason being, that the in-game trading tools are sometimes so far off as to show opposite trading directions from whats actually going on. And lets not forget that the whole background trading simulation has been nothing like the design documents promised. After various fixes that could only be described as temporary hacks by the devs, the trading is mostly static and just not interesting enough to warrant the bother of the over-laborious in-game trade tools.


If you would argue, that trading is dynamic, just because T9 traders can make enough of a dent in popular commodities at specific stations over the weekend, that trading a certain commodity becomes less profitable or impossible by lack of stock, I would call that the most rudimentary "dynamic" imaginable and in no way matching up to design documents we've been given to read.

The X Series commodity trading simulation was always a bit hokey too, but for effect, its miles ahead of Elite...

 

[nka]

I want this too... I have little time to play, so if I need to log just to search for trade route without even having the time to trade something, I just won't play.

Plus, it would be nice to use an local API to update my "real life" cockpit! Most racing game are doing it!

 

[Allomein]

I am a big fan of EDDN and EDMarketConnector. I think these tools give functionality that we would expect in game. I was honestly surprised that the game did not log my travel or my discoveries. And certainly there would be trade data and databases with which to share data within powers and factions. These tools seem very consistent to me and until such time they are added in game I think it would diminish the game if they were not supported.

 

[n13L5]

If someone considers having a trade computer is cheating, then maybe having a computer to simulate flying through space is cheating too

Why aren't they out in their back yard building an FTL capable space truck.

You know, I was out in my backyard with a load of plywood and a jig saw to do just that.
I just couldn't get the angles right for a Cobra


It all turned into a boat shaped bed for my 5 year old daughter

 

[Yokoshima]

OMG, Spoiler sites, if a large part of the community can't play without them then there is a huge issue, gamers becoming too lazy to find traderoutes the old way ? How is it possible they are even sharing that data? Doesn't it completely spoil the game if everything is already on a website?

Its more than just trade routes.
Normally in a game I never use the internet as I find it destroys RP for me. However for ED it is the opposite. I would expect such things. I would even expect them to be built in features. Systems wanting to make a profit would advertise what they have and help facilitate the flow commodities (ships, modules, goods, etc.)in anyway they can.

 

[JosiahD]

Simple.... it isn't. Those that think it's anti-lore, simply don't know the lore... Those that think it's cheating, have no grasp of logic.

It would be ridiculous to think that commodity markets wouldn't communicate with each other... in an advanced civilization whose economy centres on trade.

It seems FD and DB would agree.

For mine it's not that it's cheating - it's that it's what the original game required. Personally, I get what you're saying in that yes, these markets would communicate, surely, IF this were real life. The problem arises in that if you had at your finger tips in-game (or outside the game for that matter) the detailed information identifying ALL the trade information across ALL the commodity markets, would you not find everyone trading the same commodities between the same systems to maximise their profits? And then simply switching straight to the next optimised trade route after the prices change but without actually having to search for it? So where is the incentive to 'wander' the inhabited zone searching for good trade routes when you could alternatively bring up a tool based on ALL trade data that tells you exactly where to go, effectively playing the game for you? The whole point of the game, from a trading perspective, was the old school approach of having to search out the best routes for yourself. For mine, 3rd party tools are, and should remain, nothing more than the collaboration (outside of the game) of interested players compiling the information they collectively have to cooperatively identify the best trade routes. For Frontier to effectively hand over access to such information from the BGS for ALL markets, for example, is not cheating, but it is effectively tantamount to playing the game for you in my opinion. For mine it's the age old trade-off - make it too easy for the sake of realism (have all trade data visible to all) vs gameplay (you have to search out good routes for yourself). I prefer the latter.
.
Personally, I'd rather see more mission variety that included bulk shipments of mundane commodities (Hydrogen fuel anyone? Maybe a shipment of natural fabrics perhaps?) with hefty payouts that are competitive with the profit from hauling more valuable commodities for our own ends, so that the trade routes themselves are a sideline - something you use to gain a little extra profit when running big haulage contracts. You want to simulate the reality of how the markets would work, you DON'T want to simply perpetuate a situation where everyone knows EXACTLY where to go without trying and then hauls nothing but high value commodities for their own profit. Rather, you want a situation where bulk quantities of mundane commodities are also attractive and competitive in terms of profit, even if that means contracts to haul those commodities for someone else (such as non-CG missions for individual CMDRs to deliver 10,000 tons of x to y within a certain timeframe).

 

[salad]

You know whats Immersion breaking?

CTRL+F and CTRL+B, to show the bandwidth and frames per second, and they are 2 keystrokes away from you.

These guys are making external tools for the community, you don't need to alt tab your game, open you browser and check it if you don't like your immersion being broken.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

OMG, Spoiler sites, if a large part of the community can't play without them then there is a huge issue, gamers becoming too lazy to find traderoutes the old way ? How is it possible they are even sharing that data? Doesn't it completely spoil the game if everything is already on a website?

IF the ingame methods would actually work, it would be a different story.
i tried to use the data that we have ingame for a while, bought the import/export datas and delivered what was needed, only to find out that this data was completely wrong.
the stuff i was hauling that the system was importing...well...the system was actually producing that stuff too, it was so overstocked that is was cheaper there than where i got it. so i lost a good bunch of time and money.

IF there would be a way to actually see the "real values" for commodities in nearby systems, there would be no real need for external tools. but since the ingame documentation is far from good (points instead of numbers and all those things), external tools are needed.
i would even go as far and say, that some of those external tools should be implemented into the main game.

 

[Voggix]

I appreciate your sarcasm but ... that's just like going to some game megazine and reading the solution cause you can't figure out how to play the game and explore, make money, all they should need to add is an ingame notepad where players write down stuff, like discoveries and prices, no need to use websites to find profitable stuff to do, however that's a choice, I honestly don't like having to use a website to find stuff to advantage me, the only one type of website I like are wiki explaining game mechanics and ships' features, maybe how to craft a particular object, other than that, I prefer discovering stuff myself

Apologies to this individual - but this attitude represents everything wrong with E. It isn't 1984 - the world, and gaming, have changed. Players want information readily abvailable. And no it's not game-breaking, markets change, prices fluctuate, factions change - all of this affects the profitability of routes.

I understand that you want to play the same game you did in 1984, by all means don't use any tools. But to suggest that an in-game notepad is somehow a solution is frankly mad.

 

[tzahry]

I'm aware of that but some info should not be disclosed, trade routes and prices for example or ships' location, it breaks the immersion of the game, stations can't communicate with eachother cause of the huge distances, having to discover traderoutes and where to buy ships is part of the game, all the other stuff you mentioned should be ingame, there is no way to track your explorations right now

let's put it that way - you want to discover routes the old way - by accident. Go for it - nobody is stopping you. but please, please, please - stop whining that other people want to play their way.

As for the "stations can't communicate" nonsense - in the game ships are traveling faster than speed of light, jumping light years in matter of seconds and there is huge traffic that could take the information from A to B. Moreover - If you try to smuggle something everybody along the route instantaneously knows where you heading and already waiting for you in a spot for ambush - and that means in the ED virtual galaxy must be some sort of instantaneous information exchange and it's reasonable to expect that if stations and ships would be exchanging information about fines, legal status, political nonsense and about when you are leaving and where they would exchange information about trade data as well.