Small Combat Ship Concerns

[Kylby36]

Hey guys, been recently thinking about this..

I've been playing a lot of ED over the past week, and I've noticed that eagles and vipers are pretty much useless once you upgrade to bigger ships. I don't want to say it's unbalanced, it's just weird.

From my experience, no matter how good of a pilot you are, if you are in an eagle facing a ship with more firepower, 8/10 you will lose (you guys can claim that's not true, but one slip up will end you), not to mention 2v1s are absolutely impossible regardless of skill. So basically what I'm saying is, this is turning into an in-game currency p2w game.

Wouldn't it make sense that smaller ships should be able to outrun the big ships? Like I know for a fact the fer-de-lance can catch up to an eagle and mass-lock it so it can't escape. Would it be bad game design to allow small combat ships to go faster than a medium all-rounder ship?

What really bothers me is when I'm trying to get around a player in a big ship, but his speed is just so much better with boost that he just boosts away, tanking my hits, then spins around while still going the same speed, and since he has more firepower, I'm gone. For it being the "most successful ship in history" isn't very successful

 

[Hemlock Reaper]

this is turning into an in-game currency p2w game.

I cant believe you are actually considering in game currency as paying to win. That's investing time in a game, its not pay to win.

 

[Mohrgan]

When faced with balancing ships in the game you have to accept that larger more expensive ships will outclass less expensive ships. Otherwise why would anyone move up to a larger ship for combat? If the Eagle was just as effective as a Vulture what value would the have? At that point, make just one ship, with a variety of skins players can choose/buy.

Your issue with 'an in-game currency p2w game', you're are stretching credulity to the utmost. What you describe is akin to a lvl 10 fire-thrower crying out "P2W" because a lvl 20 knife user beat him in a duel. A players time and effort in game are generally rewarded. In Elite the only reward is Credit. Use them as you wish. It's just fine if you want to use your riches to buy back Vipers, or to buy up to the FAS and stay in the game. Credits cover the same ground in Elite, as does Experience in most other games, and then some.

All ships have their stats and design established. It is up to the players to use them. Choose wisely.

 

[CarnRage]

In a game with no stats or skills , credits are progression. I understand your concern but I believe the problem is the lack of mid tier ships available between Vulture > FDL. Without rep grinding there is no useful combat ship for a large period of time. If you are looking for "balance" then you're in the wrong place. Sure you can use an eagle to kill pythons and anacondas all the time ( npcs ) , who cares about players. This game apparently isnt about open world pvp ( check the open vs solo thread ), so dont expect to find any balance between players, just balance between players to npcs.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Hey guys, been recently thinking about this..

I've been playing a lot of ED over the past week, and I've noticed that eagles and vipers are pretty much useless once you upgrade to bigger ships. I don't want to say it's unbalanced, it's just weird.

From my experience, no matter how good of a pilot you are, if you are in an eagle facing a ship with more firepower, 8/10 you will lose (you guys can claim that's not true, but one slip up will end you), not to mention 2v1s are absolutely impossible regardless of skill. So basically what I'm saying is, this is turning into an in-game currency p2w game.

Wouldn't it make sense that smaller ships should be able to outrun the big ships? Like I know for a fact the fer-de-lance can catch up to an eagle and mass-lock it so it can't escape. Would it be bad game design to allow small combat ships to go faster than a medium all-rounder ship?

What really bothers me is when I'm trying to get around a player in a big ship, but his speed is just so much better with boost that he just boosts away, tanking my hits, then spins around while still going the same speed, and since he has more firepower, I'm gone. For it being the "most successful ship in history" isn't very successful

IF you want to tangle with larger ships, you need either better tactics or do what it takes to get a bigger ship.

If you don't know how to use multiple small ships to take down or chase off bigger ones, then the problem is your tactics, not the ships.

 

[Gold Member]

A bigger ship has a bigger power plant and will burn your shields. Simple as that. As Byr Geofin said, use tactics like multiple attackers. They could easily mass lock a larger ship.

I'm not really feeling very sympathetic since losing an Eagle costs next to nothing, but losing a ship that somebody worked hard to get enough in game currency to buy and equip can cost a lot. So they are bigger and tougher. There wouldn't be any point in larger ships if pirates could just zerg in Eagles and grief others out of tens of millions of credits.

There is no such thing as in-game P2W. It's called experience and time. P2W would be if someone could buy a hundred million credits and just buy the ship they wanted instead of working for it.

 

[777Driver]

Wouldn't it make sense that smaller ships should be able to outrun the big ships? Like I know for a fact the fer-de-lance can catch up to an eagle and mass-lock it so it can't escape. Would it be bad game design to allow small combat ships to go faster than a medium all-rounder ship?

The original eagle is pretty useless, it's a great ship to fly but rubbish for combat. The Cobra MIII, Viper MKIII and Imperial Eagle can outrun pretty much anything.

In your example of an Eagle being chased by an FDL, the Eagle can escape into witchspace, FSD mass inhibition only prevents the target ship from entering supercruise.

 

[Kylby36]

I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

A bigger ship has a bigger power plant and will burn your shields. Simple as that. As Byr Geofin said, use tactics like multiple attackers. They could easily mass lock a larger ship.

I'm not really feeling very sympathetic since losing an Eagle costs next to nothing, but losing a ship that somebody worked hard to get enough in game currency to buy and equip can cost a lot. So they are bigger and tougher. There wouldn't be any point in larger ships if pirates could just zerg in Eagles and grief others out of tens of millions of credits.

There is no such thing as in-game P2W. It's called experience and time. P2W would be if someone could buy a hundred million credits and just buy the ship they wanted instead of working for it.

We have just started operating in Winters/Hudson space doing undermining. We ignore CMDRs that don't bother us, even though they are pledged to a PP faction and are fair game. No one likes to get blown up, yeah? And yet, every single night someone pipes up and says:

"Someone is interdicting me in an Eagle."

"Dude, aren't you in your Anaconda?"

"Yeah, maybe he just wants to talk and RP or something, I am cool with that... oh wow, he is shooting me now. One sec... ok, boom."

"Geez, at least the Archon Delaine guys were smart enough to run, and they are pirates."

"Well, maybe this one has just learned his lesson. What a waste of ammo"

Based on the OP, I don't think so.

Please, please, spare my pilots the anguish of blowing up your little ship and just leave them alone, ok?

 

[Lobstris]

I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

FWIW I agree that there should be less overall disparity between the combat capabilities of ships, compensated for by less cost disparity between ships/greater influence of modules, module choice and tactics. But hey, MMOs must have 'progression' and all that... :7 [NB: Not arguing that more expensive things shouldn't be better, just that the current 'degree of betterness' can be a bit extreme, especially given things like non-linear weapon damage with hardpoint size, and small weapons penalties against bigger ships].

 

[Kylby36]

There is no such thing as in-game P2W. It's called experience and time. P2W would be if someone could buy a hundred million credits and just buy the ship they wanted instead of working for it.

You're wrong because that's no different than working hard irl to buy something in-game to win, except for the actual currency that's different. You're still buying something that gives you an advantage. That's called pay to win.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

FWIW I agree that there should be less overall disparity between the combat capabilities of ships, compensated for by less cost disparity between ships/greater influence of modules, module choice and tactics. But hey, MMOs must have 'progression' and all that... :7 [NB: Not arguing that more expensive things shouldn't be better, just that the current 'degree of betterness' can be a bit extreme].

Look, if you could outfit 250 eagles for the cost of my Anaconda, I am sure those 250 eagles could kick my butt. Heck, 3/4 of them would not even need to fire.

So if anything, I want my Anaconda refund!

 

[Mohrgan]

I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

I guess you would have to explain to me why that player should not want to upgrade. If you want to do the bigger jobs, it's only logical you should want the bigger tools. As in other subjects I wonder at these cries to fix problems that simply stem from a players personal choices. That's what this is all about. Choices, between small and large ships. Vultures are rated as a small ships, but they can take on an Anaconda. So it's not small ships you lament for, but cheap ships rather. I can see no logic for having a Viper be as capable a ship as a Vulture for a small fraction of the price. Size is another matter all together.

 

[Lobstris]

Look, if you could outfit 250 eagles for the cost of my Anaconda, I am sure those 250 eagles could kick my butt. Heck, 3/4 of them would not even need to fire.

So if anything, I want my Anaconda refund!

I'd give you a refund for your Anaconda in a heartbeat.
.
And it would be great - if we could get 250 Eagles in an instance. I'd love to see fighters overwhelming big ships in mass attacks. Shame that Elite's primary combat (both in terms of instancing, and general encounters outside of playing with wings) is PvE 1 player vs. 1-4 AI, and should be balanced towards that IMHO.
.
Things are only going to get weirder anyway this year what with crafting allowing adjustments and tweaks, ship launched fighters and (supposedly) allowing a multi-crewed ship to be balance against a wing (how? just... how? ). Lots of combat tweaks to come...

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

I'd give you a refund for your Anaconda in a heartbeat.
.
And it would be great - if we could get 250 Eagles in an instance. Things are only going to get weirder anyway next year what with crafting, ship launched fighters and (supposedly) allowing a multi-crewed ship to be balance against a wing (how? just... how? ). Lots of combat tweaks to come...

A wing of just 3 Cobras burned down the shields of good PVPers 1.5 FDL without the loss of a ship. It was not hard at all, we just worked together. 9 million in ships vrs a 150Mil or more spec, not a problem.
He jumped out once we got him down to his last ring.

He was in a wing of 3, the other two were pinned down by another Cobra each. Does not matter how big the ship is, it has to win or submit to interdiction and that takes time. Time we had to burn down shields.

 

[Devantejah]

You're wrong because that's no different than working hard irl to buy something in-game to win, except for the actual currency that's different. You're still buying something that gives you an advantage. That's called pay to win.

First off, Viper is an awesome ship.

Second of all, pay to win applies to stuff you buy with real money that is better than the things you can buy with ingame currency.

 

[Lobstris]

A wing of just 3 Cobras burned down the shields of good PVPers 1.5 FDL without the loss of a ship. It was not hard at all, we just worked together. 9 million in ships vrs a 150Mil or more spec, not a problem.
He jumped out once we got him down to his last ring.

He was in a wing of 3, the other two were pinned down by another Cobra each. Does not matter how big the ship is, it has to win or submit to interdiction and that takes time. Time we had to burn down shields.

Fair enough, sounds like a good fight - but a Cobra is a step up from a Sidey.

 

[Mohrgan]

You're wrong because that's no different than working hard irl to buy something in-game to win, except for the actual currency that's different. You're still buying something that gives you an advantage. That's called pay to win.

There is every difference between the two. Progression is what is earned for putting in the effort to play. If putting time, or gaining experience were routes to P2W, then every game in existence is pay to win. Why would a lvl 10 Bear Killer expect to be to be a match for a lvl 25 Bear Killer? You wouldn't. How do you get from lvl 10 to lvl 25? Gain Experience. In Elite, Credits serve for experience. Use those credits to serve what ever purpose you choose, but an Eagle should never beat a Python all things being the same. Pay up for a decent ship, already.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

For it being the "most successful ship in history" isn't very successful

Yeah the most successful ship in history for the Company ie: units sold. Translated means more Eagles blown up and rebought by folks like you fighting FDL's

 

[GJ51]

I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

So your remedy is to make it so everyone should fly Eagles?

Why risk a 100 mil cr ship if it can't beat an Eagle?

This nonsense comes around every so often, been beaten to death many times. If you don't want to progress past an eagle, that's your choice.