Small Combat Ship Concerns

[Kylby36]

So your remedy is to make it so everyone should fly Eagles?

Why risk a 100 mil cr ship if it can't beat an Eagle?

This nonsense comes around every so often, been beaten to death many times. If you don't want to progress past an eagle, that's your choice.

what? if you have a 100mil ship it's obvious that you've been playing long (too long imo) and you'll have the skill to take down an eagle if you're not an idiot. I'm just tired of not being able to be faster than a walrus of a ship and die because I can't escape when he catches up to me.

What I'm saying is, if you don't want to progress past an eagle, you shouldn't have to. You can't even use the eagle's maneuverability since ships can just boost away and spin around and shoot. Smaller ships should be faster if they're combat ships. That's where the balance would come in. Faster, more maneuverable... But if you screw up and get hit you're done. Right now they have it to where it's just more maneuverable, and that's not enough for a fighter.

 

[Lobstris]

There is every difference between the two. Progression is what is earned for putting in the effort to play. If putting time, or gaining experience were routes to P2W, then every game in existence is pay to win. Why would a lvl 10 Bear Killer expect to be to be a match for a lvl 25 Bear Killer? You wouldn't. How do you get from lvl 10 to lvl 25? Gain Experience. In Elite, Credits serve for experience. Use those credits to serve what ever purpose you choose, but an Eagle should never beat a Python all things being the same. Pay up for a decent ship, already.

ARRRGH!!! Levels!!! Please for the love of all that is holy can we never ever *EVER* mention levels in the context of Elite? Analogies in the form of 'you wouldn't expect a Mig-19 to beat an F-22 unless the F-22 was winchester and really unlucky' or should an 'Eagle (Mig-29 with rocket pods) be able to damage an Anaconda (OHP class Frigate) if it comes in low and is lucky'. But never levels!

 

[GJ51]

what? if you have a 100mil ship it's obvious that you've been playing long (too long imo) and you'll have the skill to take down an eagle if you're not an idiot. I'm just tired of not being able to be faster than a walrus of a ship and die because I can't escape when he catches up to me.

What I'm saying is, if you don't want to progress past an eagle, you shouldn't have to. You can't even use the eagle's maneuverability since ships can just boost away and spin around and shoot. Smaller ships should be faster if they're combat ships.

Then I would say you really need to learn how to escape in those situations. If you can't figure out how to survive in an Eagle, it will really cost you if you ever do move up.

How long I play is none of your business. I care nothing about how long you want to play, that's entirely up to you.

Fly safe

Edit: Here's a clue for you. The Cobra is the fastest ship in the game. If using speed is how you want to survive, get a Cobra.

Adapt or die. Your choice.

 

[Lobstris]

So your remedy is to make it so everyone should fly Eagles?

Why risk a 100 mil cr ship if it can't beat an Eagle?

This nonsense comes around every so often, been beaten to death many times. If you don't want to progress past an eagle, that's your choice.

a) the 100m cr ship probably shouldn't be worth 100m - if you want to fly something overpriced into combat that you don't want to lose, that's your choice. b) If we talk about an Eagle with good weapons/modules/tactics why shouldn't it stand a chance against a poorly equipped or flown big ship, especially in a game that is primarily 1 v 1 PvE combat? Arguing about combat aside, the game will be poorer as a if there does end up just one 'go to/end game' ship. We do need a lot more variants.

 

[d8veh]

I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

You need to have a look on YouTube, where you can see skilled pilots using a single small ship to take out wings of big ships piloted by real players, which are many times harder than the NPCs you find in the game.

Have a look at this thread, then start practicing:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=220158

 

[Mohrgan]

what? if you have a 100mil ship it's obvious that you've been playing long (too long imo) and you'll have the skill to take down an eagle if you're not an idiot. I'm just tired of not being able to be faster than a walrus of a ship and die because I can't escape when he catches up to me.

What I'm saying is, if you don't want to progress past an eagle, you shouldn't have to. You can't even use the eagle's maneuverability since ships can just boost away and spin around and shoot. Smaller ships should be faster if they're combat ships.

Buy a better ship. Or, choose your targets better until you can buy a bigger ship. My Vulture is a small ship. I can take it and place it, more or less, in a big ship's blind spot and peck away at the monster. You can do the same with an Eagle/Viper as you get better at flying. When they attempt to make room and turn on you, don't let them. Push right back into their blind spot again and resume your attack.

The way to get away from even the biggest ships is to jump to another system. You can not be mass locked. You just need to do that before your ship reaches the point of no return. All of these thing just take experience. You will gain that experience as you gain assets. You won;t be a lvl 10 Sword Dancer for very long.

 

[Kylby36]

You need to have a look on YouTube, where you can see skilled pilots using a single small ship to take out wings of big ships piloted by real players, which are many times harder than the NPCs you find in the game.

Have a look at this thread, then start practicing:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=220158

I'm just going to counter that by saying in what world has a fighter ever been slower than a bomber/cruiser/airliner?

My concern isn't about actually killing something, it's about how damn slow it is.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Fair enough, sounds like a good fight - but a Cobra is a step up from a Sidey.

The OP said Eagle and Viper, and now we are down to Sidey?

It could be done in any of those ships, he can only point his guns, especially fixed ones, at one ship at a time. Communicating so that one ship knows to be out of gun range as he turns on it is key, not the ship itself

The sideys would be unworkable from a firepower standpoint, it just could not do enough damage to be viable, but not because it would necessarily get killed.

 

[Caldric]

Why not use your small ship to attack small ships that is what it was designed to do it is a fighter not a death star.

 

[GJ51]

a) the 100m cr ship probably shouldn't be worth 100m - if you want to fly something overpriced into combat that you don't want to lose, that's your choice. b) If we talk about an Eagle with good weapons/modules/tactics why shouldn't it stand a chance against a poorly equipped or flown big ship, especially in a game that is primarily 1 v 1 PvE combat? Arguing about combat aside, the game will be poorer as a if there does end up just one 'go to/end game' ship. We do need a lot more variants.

a) I think you miss the point here. The OP complains that the Eagle isn't competitive against more expensive ships. I am merely pointing out that if it was, there would be no point in flying something with a much higher re-buy into combat against it.

b) I'm not making that argument, the OP is.

 

[Mohrgan]

I'm just going to counter that by saying in what world has a fighter ever been slower than a bomber/cruiser/airliner?

My concern isn't about actually killing something, it's about how damn slow it is.

The Eagle is as fast as the 45k credits it costs will allow it to fly. The idea is; if you want a faster ship, buy a faster ship. A P-51 isn't a match for an F-22. They are both fighters. Some ships outclass other ships. A 90k A-rated Eagle should not be a match for a Python. But if you want to stay in a small, nimble fighter move on into a Vulture. A Vulture can put a beating on a Corvette even. My Vulture costs about 20 mil and is a complete beast. If you want a do it all small combat ship, there you are.

 

[Lobstris]

The OP said Eagle and Viper, and now we are down to Sidey?
It could be done in any of those ships, he can only point his guns, especially fixed ones, at one ship at a time. Communicating so that one ship knows to be out of gun range as he turns on it is key, not the ship itself

I'd still consider (according to Elite lore) a Sidey a light fighter - YMMV . That aside, it would have been nice if FDev had released the game with the proposed DDF wingman functionality in it so that a single player could have some assistance along for the ride. In your example, multiple player ships using communication and target identification are key - these are options not open to a single player in a small ship (but hopefully will come with time). If this does become an option, then fine, keep small fighters at a disadvantage to larger ships (arguably realistic), but allow swarm tactics to overwhelm prey (again arguably realistic). If this doesn't materialise, then making small ships a bit quicker and larger ships less agile and more dependent on turrets for defence, would strike me as the way to go. [I argued back in the day for the need for AI wingmen responding to player commands (break, attack etc.) as well as the (now-unfortunately long dead) idea of transponders to mask player radar scanner from other players.]

 

[Mr_Blastman]

I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

It is totally possible to destroy CMDR ships costing 125 - 300 million plus using only an 8 million credit ship. I'm not talking unarmed expensive ships, I'm talking fully upgraded warships.

 

[DrakeAurum]

I'm just going to counter that by saying in what world has a fighter ever been slower than a bomber/cruiser/airliner?

My concern isn't about actually killing something, it's about how damn slow it is.

The B-1B bomber can fly at Mach 1.25, and the original B1-A design was capable of exceeding Mach 2. The Herrier Jump Jet, on the other hand, is a strictly subsonic naval fighter.

 

[Lobstris]

The B-1B bomber can fly at Mach 1.25, and the original B1-A design was capable of exceeding Mach 2. The Herrier Jump Jet, on the other hand, is a strictly subsonic naval fighter.

Heh. A better analogy would have been 'since when has any airborne fighter (P-51 through to Mig-31) been slower than a corvette/frigate/destroyer' which is more in line with the space trope being aimed for I suppose.
.
This is where a lot of analogies fall down isn't it? Is an Anaconda a super-fighter, a cargo ship, a space yacht, a corvette or a light carrier? Or all of those. Is an Eagle meant to be a P-51, an F-22 or a Motor Dinghy?
.
In Frontier/Frontier FE, the fighters had far better acceleration than the multi-role and bigger ships (with no top speed limit of course). Unfortunately, in E: D that trade off isn't possible (or isn't as noticeable/relevant) - and we're down to speed and manoeuvrability. I'd argue that the Viper(s), derived from dedicated interceptors, should have the highest max speeds (boost or otherwise) in the game, followed by things like the Eagle(s). I don't quite follow the logic of the Cobra Mk III being so nippy - it's always struck me as perhaps a little too fast for a multi-role ship?
.
I've no problem with Vultures just being damn scary.

 

[Kylby36]

The Eagle is as fast as the 45k credits it costs will allow it to fly. The idea is; if you want a faster ship, buy a faster ship. A P-51 isn't a match for an F-22. They are both fighters. Some ships outclass other ships. A 90k A-rated Eagle should not be a match for a Python. But if you want to stay in a small, nimble fighter move on into a Vulture. A Vulture can put a beating on a Corvette even. My Vulture costs about 20 mil and is a complete beast. If you want a do it all small combat ship, there you are.

Did you really just compare a P-51 to an F-22?

1) There's a 40 year difference between the 2.

2) The P-51 was ran by a propeller. The F-22 is a dual-engine.

Regardless of what you said... Both fighters were faster than bombers in their time.

My point is, if all fighters are the same speed as freighters/medium combat ships, people will just be running end-game ships because there's no advantage to being small. There need to be a lot more variants. Meaning a fighter between viper-vulture, and a fighter between vulture-FAS.

 

[Lobstris]

Did you really just compare a P-51 to an F-22?

1) There's a 40 year difference between the 2.

2) The P-51 was ran by a propeller. The F-22 is a dual-engine.

Regardless of what you said... Both fighters were faster than bombers in their time.

My point is, if all fighters are the same speed as freighters/medium combat ships, people will just be running end-game ships because there's no advantage to being small. There need to be a lot more variants. Meaning a fighter between viper-vulture, and a fighter between vulture-FAS.

His point is interesting though, in that from a lore perspective the Eagle *IS* an obsolescent fighter from a previous generation - the descriptive text does say that it has been superceded in both Imperial and Federal navies, and comes from a discontinued line of ships. It's kinda the Mig-21 of E: D - shedloads built and kinda capable-ish with avionics upgrades, but you wouldn't want to start a war against a modern power using them. (And there I go blowing some of my own arguments out of the water )

 

[Caldric]

Why not just move up to a vulture? It is the next logical step, the viper is a starter ship that was never going to be better than higher level ships. You could stop at the vulture, fast, nimble hard hitting what more could you ask for? I think your argument lacks any grounds. If you want to zip around in a viper go for it but no reason what so ever to complain the game is broke and we are PTW when I have only been playing since horizon and have FAS fitted out.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

The FDL is an expensive fighter and it's plenty fast, you get what you pay for.

 

[thorn-]

I would love a ship that was as fast as the Cobra, as nimble as the Eagle, as lethal as the Vulture... and while we're at it, make it sexy like the Eagle or Courier.

I'd easily pay $20 Million for such a ship.

But instead we get Cheap Fighters, Weak Fighters, and Slow Fighters. And the FDL.