Why must combat ships have terrible range?

[[VR] Deggial]

Regarding 'balance':

Would a long jump range really mess up the ships balance?

I mean, if it comes with the proposed disadvantages (less speed, less hull, slightly less maneuverability, slightly less firepower, higher price), it would definitely be a challenge to fight optimized heavy short-range fighters (Vulture!). I really fail to see it being OP.

The main use for it would be (imo):
- fast and compfortable traveling between combat CGs
- convoying ships for Anacondas in wings (not slowing their travel-speed down)
- escort missions (should they ever come)
- attack-missions/combat in alien territory (as soon as (hostile) aliens are implemented)

 

[metatheurgist]

Must be time for an FSD booster module.

 

[Starlanced]

I will never buy a FDL just because of the jump range, I hate 16 jumps just to go 100lys

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I will never buy a FDL just because of the jump range, I hate 16 jumps just to go 100lys

That doesn't add up. Lol you're flying it all wrong!
100ly / 12ly = 8.333333333 jumps
Just grab a fuel scoop and set your course to fastest route.
The scoop I have fitted can usually fill up my tank in the same time it takes to line up my next jump and charge the FSD.
Just make sure you fuel at every stop . lol

 

[evoelise]

Viper Mk IV has a great jump range.

 

[Hampstor]

Why not just be able to warp anywhere in the galaxy?, I feel ED limits itself too much in some areas.

 

[Maro-Val]

Giving combat ships decent jump ranges when A rated, is not making them trading or exploring ships. Bigger ships should have bigger (or massive) jump range IMO. Corvette should have 17ish LY and more.

I would say 20ish, but i won't say it.

 

[Muetdhiver]

That doesn't add up. Lol you're flying it all wrong!
100ly / 12ly = 8.333333333 jumps
Just grab a fuel scoop and set your course to fastest route.
The scoop I have fitted can usually fill up my tank in the same time it takes to line up my next jump and charge the FSD.
Just make sure you fuel at every stop . lol

If only that was the case. In practice, the average distance between stars is above the FDL range, causing much detours and loss of valuable game time.
The corvette is even worse though. I think I'll wait for ship moving services for this one.

 

[Gimmename]

If you outfit Corvet to optimize jump range it will be about 20LY. Not bad actually. But you want to put all that hi end super duper combat equipment, SCBs, reiforced alloys, hull packages, huge heapons and expect that thing will still jump like a Michael
Jordan?

Jump range is totaly fine. Just use fuel scoop.

By the way.. I'm wondering what jump range Capital Ship have?

 

[SpitTheDog]

Nope, I definitely don't mean the Asp!

With "less firepower", I mean a Python-class ship with 2L/3M instead of 3L/2M (or something alike, this is really just an example ** ), not a pitiable 2M/4S.
The Asp is a multi-role ship with all its adavantages (abundant internals, ...) and disadvantages (including shape, ...).
I would love to fly a dedicated long-rang fighter!

Edit:
** ... and a bad one, I guess, as the Phyton is a multi-role ship itself. i should have taken a dedicated fighter.

I know you don't really mean the Asp but it is an example that does what you suggest. It just didn't do it with the sort of ship you wanted.

If we looked at the real fighters then you could look at the Viper MK4 which now has a range and capacity similar to a Cobra MK3 but more suited to combat.

The are choices in the range you mention...

Clipper - Fast, strong weapons, large cargo, reasonable jump range, decent agility BUT big, not the best placements, weaker shields than others.
Anaconda - Superb weapons, decent agility, great jump range, strong shields BUT Sloow and costs a lot

Did you forget about the Viper MK4 or are you ruling out the dedicated fighters (e.g. the smaller ships) because they don't have weapons comparable to the Python or the other larger ships?

 

[[VR] Deggial]

Viper Mk IV has a great jump range.

It is okay-ish. The Imperial Courier is more what I am thinking about. But he is rank-locked and additionally, both ships are in the 'small' category.
I personally see the hypothetical long-range fight more in the medium size ship range. So, a better comparison would be the FdL with really long jump range but severe disadvantages in other fields (as mentioned above).

Edit:
SpitTheDog, you posted while I was typing, but my answer already covered your post.
Yes, it is exactly as you mentioned:
I would like to see a medium ship comparable (but with drawbacks as mentioned) to the Python (that's why I did choose it as example in the first place). But really, the FdL would be the better comparison, as it is already a combat ship.

Edit2:
Indeed, the iClipper does come close to what I imagine. However:
- it is faction-locked
- bad weapon placement, as you mentioned
- not so good shields, as you mentioned. Decent shields are something you would like to have, fighting far away from the possibility to repair your ship, I imagine. (Again implying the implementation of hostile aliens in the future).

 

[dementia]

TL;DR: Combat ships have rubbish range by design, why?

High end combat ships have terrible range, not just a little low, but almost unworkable. For instance the maximum total range of an A-spec Fer de Lance is 33LY (3x 11LY jumps), about the same as what an exploration ship (Asp, Diamondback or Anaconda) can do in a single jump (with plenty of fuel left for more). The Federal Corvette has a similar problem. These combat ships already have very few internals relative to similar ships of their size and cost.

In addition most routes across occupied space have at least 12-13LY gap in there, resulting in these 11LY ships having to travel much longer circuitous routes.

Why? This is clearly by design - Frontier want egregiously poor range to be a defining characteristic of fighting ships, but what's the thinking behind that?

I think I understand with the Viper. It was an in-system police ship in the original game and it's designed for local law enforcement, not ranging travel. However, the Federal Corvette is the pride of the Federal fleet, piloted by a Rear Admiral, and it's stuck at home. Why?

I'm not saying these ships should have amazing range (though there is a big hole in the ship line up for any kind of long range combat ship) - just not so awful. If the FDL had a 14-15LY jump range and fuel for 6 jumps it would still be no kind of explorer or trader, but at least you could travel to a CG or go on a basic 15LY mission without stopping to refuel. Same again with the FC.

In Elite: Frontier these ships could be fitted with Military Drives, significantly increasing their range, but requiring permits to buy, being significantly more expensive and producing toxic waste on each jump. Is something like that planned?

Jump boost synthesis does not work for these ships - nobody is going to go exploring planet-side for hours in a Federal Corvette to get materials to make a few jumps.

So, why do the devs deliberately make combat ships have such poor range?

Different tools for a different job. You argument is up there beside

"Why can't my Ford Smax do 300mph, corner like a race car, carry 50 tons of luggage and get 1000 mpg!?"

There are trade offs in everything and that is a good thing. If you had a single ship that was best for everything then Elite would rapidly become very flat.

 

[goemon]

- first of all - you know, that ship-transfer is coming, don't you? so that problem will not exist soon - take your DBS/DBE/Asp/Cobra/Hauler/... go, where you want to play, and order your FDL/corvette/... at least that is how i understood the upcoming feature.

I definitly would love to see a long-range figther and I stated so in several threads already. A range of about 33-35 lys would be adequate, I think.

33-35 ly is what you get out of a specialized exploration build (Asp/DBE). btw.: the DBE is sold as an armed explorer ... but sucks at combat if not flown FAOFF...

In addition most routes across occupied space have at least 12-13LY gap in there, resulting in these 11LY ships having to travel much longer circuitous routes.

I think I understand with the Viper. It was an in-system police ship in the original game and it's designed for local law enforcement, not ranging travel. However, the Federal Corvette is the pride of the Federal fleet, piloted by a Rear Admiral, and it's stuck at home. Why?

- if you are not only playing combat pilot, basic jumponium is not scarce and will push your FDL's jumprange to 14-16 ly range ... with that you can move her more easily to a CG (but it still sucks)

- reoutfit a ship for a travel ... you can fit extra fueltanks and a big fuelscoop, drop weapons etc. target the hightech-system next to your target, nd reoutfit.

I think fully outfitted combat ships except for the smallest (eagle, viper) should be capable of ~20LY jump range. It's incredibly painful going across the bubble to get to the next CG or meet up with friends or... well, there are lots of reasons to travel far... unless you have 19-20LY jump range.
It's not like PvP piracy is a super-profitable profession...

- small fighters like eagle, viper, vulture you can buy close by... this is what i do for bhing CG's. get an eagle or vulture at place.

- the clipper has a good jumprange and is a very good piracy ship

With "less firepower", I mean a Python-class ship with 2L/3M instead of 3L/2M (or something alike, this is really just an example ** ), not a pitiable 2M/4S.
The Asp is a multi-role ship with all its adavantages (abundant internals, ...) and disadvantages (including shape, ...).
I would love to fly a dedicated long-rang fighter!

Edit:
** ... and a bad one, I guess, as the Phyton is a multi-role ship itself. i should have taken a dedicated fighter.

this:

Cough* Anaconda Cough*

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I think the simplest solution would be to have sub-classes of ships.
Can't be bothered to work them out right now though. Lol
Smaller fighters, bar scouts, would have small ranges, scouts/recon would have very long ranges, but less weapons.
Or whatever. Lol
Yada yada yada... Lol

 

[Strangepork]

Each kind of ship has to be bad in some department, it's just the Elite way

Even when you have worked really hard for a year to get one of the best ships, they MUST still all be bad in at least one way.

Apparently The Capital Ships can only jump for 0.6 LY, and take up to 14 human lifetimes to grind for !

 

[[VR] Deggial]

@goemon:
- Asp/DBE: as you said. I know, there are existing ships with the desired jump range. But I definitely don't want to fight aliens with them, 1200 lys away from the next human-inhabited system.
- Anaconda: yes, of course. But
a) it is not a dedicated fighter, but multi-role
b) too large, too many weapons (I am weird, I know ...)
c) hence way too expensive (even if I did write I would be willing to pay twice the usual price for its class)

 

[Maro-Val]

Capital ships may not have an fsd at all, haha. They stay in the capital or move with ship transfer. Too heavy to move by themselves.


Oh and i really really don't like the idea of ship tranfer service as a solution to pathetic jump ranges. Yes it would be nice to have it, but it's not THE solution. We should be able to use the ship transfer only for an amount of ships at once (not one or two) and at a cost. We should be able to fly our ships ourselves, but with decent jump ranges. Just decent that's all.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

New and totally genius solution!

External disposable fuel tanks.

Fairly pricey.
Requires no slots.
Used first before anything.
Auto jettisoned when empty + manual drop.
Very High chance of exploding if shot.
Different sizes for different ships, small(32t) medium(64t) and large(128t).

 

[znôrt]

or you could just get over it

i wouldn't mind a bit more jump range, but i have been fighting all over the bubble with this baby, no problemo: http://coriolis.io/outfit/fer_de_la...70404070m0000B25d325366.AwRj4yrI.AwiMIyrVaA==

it can scoop on the fly. it just means a couple more jumps, a bit of patience and having to check a bit more carefully for scoopable stars on the run. not something you can't get used to. i've started to even kind of like it!

 

[KayAitch]

That doesn't add up. Lol you're flying it all wrong!
100ly / 12ly = 8.333333333 jumps
Just grab a fuel scoop and set your course to fastest route.
The scoop I have fitted can usually fill up my tank in the same time it takes to line up my next jump and charge the FSD.
Just make sure you fuel at every stop . lol

Only you can't fit a large fuel tank and a large scoop, as the FDL just doesn't have the internals. Even if you do it won't be 100LY/11LY because at least one of the systems will be 12-13LY away and you'll have to go the long way round, often massively out of the way. In a FDL I had a return trip I'd done in an Asp in 3 jumps become a 20LY return trip that looped right around the target and approached it from the other side - only that route had 3 carbon stars and a t-tauri in a row so I had to plot an even worse one to actually make it.

11LY range is not just low - it's crippling for a late-game ship.