No Clans/Player Factions?

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

It's not a logical fallacy but a perceived inconsistancy. However what you've done there is one, called the "straw man" fallacy where you misrepresent what's been said by me to easily prove your point... except you don't.

What's happening now is a workaround to provide something like a guild system, nothing like the actual guild system I outlined in all but a few ways. There is no "in game" clan system, nothing to identify one is a member of one clan or another, nothing to stop people belonging to 10 different clans, 10 friends requesting 10 different in game factions etc. All very heath robertson.

You could say that people can just form clans outside the game, via facebook groups or something and name themselves after in game factions so they have an ingame presence. That doesn't mean it's the same as a fully developed in game clan system.

I might add to the sort of things missing from a full clan system: clan inventories, clan treasuries, ranks, bulletin boards etc ... I didn't mention them since they're common to most clan systems rather than unique to ED.

You must not be reading, your bold and underlined statement is a clear falsehood and I have stated the mechanism clearly.

WE don't have "clans" we have Minor Factions. They are not the same. They don't behave the same. DB has stated they won't work the same as other games.

So all the things you claim are "necessary" are your wants, but not the mechanisms of the game.

You ignore your Minor Faction in this game, you LOSE your station. Where does all the stuff go if it is linked to the Minor Faction? Poof?
Actually, that is a great idea... hmmm.
Storage is coming too, been defined. Read the DEV notes, that is why they are there. You might know more about the direction of development that way and stop making incorrect statements

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What about looking at other games and their clan systems? Surely ED gamers aren't that much different from the norm?

No, but DB is a different kind of developer from them. Minor Factions are the "Clan" of this game, and has different mechanics, not all of which are in game.

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Check my sig - we have one of the most influential minor factions already. I'm not, however, the representative of the faction in the group leaders' forum, and that information hasn't been passed on to me.

Any time you care to stop being an at to people, that would be great. In the meantime, if you can't converse politely with people, may I suggest that you stop conversing?

Says the guy calling people names. Nice.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What about looking at other games and their clan systems? Surely ED gamers aren't that much different from the norm?

Given the age profile of those that backed the game (over three years ago), you might be surprised.

I expect that DBOBE's reluctance to implement a "classic" guild / corp / clan system from other games is due to the types of anti-social game-play that such facilitate. I posted earlier in the thread with links to what DBOBE has said on the topic. Frontier have also said that they are making the game that they want to play - that might also have something to do with the lack of such features.

 

[Commander Debic]

Too bad they're already in.

What does it harm you? You don't have to join one.

At this time and for now it does no harm. But how long before clans, corps, alliances, guilds whatever you want to call them, start clamouring for special passes to be earned to allow access to the systems they are already considering their own?
I can see the argument they would put forward to FD, along the lines of need to control "their own system" from those terrible Solo/private group players who are messing up their influences, and stifling their expansions.

I seem to remember many players and DB being against player owned space, too Eve like, with groups using force to prevent others having free access to huge sections of space.
Although it seems, MB is in favour of this emergent play even if DB wasn't.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

At this time and for now it does no harm. But how long before clans, corps, alliances, guilds whatever you want to call them, start clamouring for special passes to be earned to allow access to the systems they are already considering their own?
I can see the argument they would put forward to FD, along the lines of need to control "their own system" from those terrible Solo/private group players who are messing up their influences, and stifling their expansions.

I seem to remember many players and DB being against player owned space, too Eve like, with groups using force to prevent others having free access to huge sections of space.
Although it seems, MB is in favour of this emergent play even if DB wasn't.

I believe a few have, and the answer has been: Sit down, shut up. Not happening.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Says the guy calling people names. Nice.

After you demonstrated that you aren't capable of conversing like an adult.

 

[Garbarrage]

You must not be reading, your bold and underlined statement is a clear falsehood and I have stated the mechanism clearly.

WE don't have "clans" we have Minor Factions. They are not the same. They don't behave the same. DB has stated they won't work the same as other games.

So all the things you claim are "necessary" are your wants, but not the mechanisms of the game.

You ignore your Minor Faction in this game, you LOSE your station. Where does all the stuff go if it is linked to the Minor Faction? Poof?
Actually, that is a great idea... hmmm.
Storage is coming too, been defined. Read the DEV notes, that is why they are there. You might know more about the direction of development that way and stop making incorrect statements

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No, but DB is a different kind of developer from them. Minor Factions are the "Clan" of this game, and has different mechanics, not all of which are in game.

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Says the guy calling people names. Nice.

And what about players who want to be in a group, but not play the BGS?

Would a boardroom/office/group chat channel and message board that could be used by minor factions and groups of players without a minor faction be that big of a deal or hard to put in the game?

How about groups who would rather play as mercenaris etc?

 

[Robert Maynard]

After you demonstrated that you aren't capable of conversing like an adult.

Can participants please discuss the topic rather than resorting to name-calling, please. Failure to adhere to this simple request will result in the thread being closed for review (by another Moderator).

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

And what about players who want to be in a group, but not play the BGS?

Would a boardroom/office/group chat channel and message board that could be used by minor factions and groups of players without a minor faction be that big of a deal or hard to put in the game?

Lots of out of game tools to do so.

Issue I have with chat channels is that so many players use HOTAS, which means you really never touch to the keyboard except to type for some reason, and it is a real distraction. VR users would also be a HUGE disadvantage since they cannot see the keyboard at all.

Voice comms... well, nothing you could not do better with TS or something else.

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One last thing:

If you form and register your Minor Faction, you get access to additional restricted Forum(s) as a Minor Faction Leader. There, you will have more direct contact with the community contact for the Minor Factions.

Far, far more leverage and input than you will get here on General.

 

[andyraptor]

That's just not true. Perhaps you could explain, maybe with some examples of games they killed?
WoW? Eve? Star Citizen? World of Tanks? And before you say "Firstly, elite is none of those games", that's true, but can you name any games it is, which were killed by clans?

It's very true ....

If you wish to start yet another thread about this .....do so

I ... for one... don't give a owls fart to get involved in yet another juvenile thread about this... as I said it's just too complex for a BB

as long as DBOBE keeps it dead ... I'm fine with it

 

[Commander Debic]

I believe a few have, and the answer has been: Sit down, shut up. Not happening.

And I for one hope to hell it stays that way.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

And I for one hope to hell it stays that way.

Abso-freakin'-lutly.

DB has repeatedly said "No Player owned Game Assets" and I hope he sticks to that.

 

[Chris Majere]

Read the giant Dev update on the subject:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=221826

in fact, just read the DEV updates, you will know a lot more about where the game is going.

Minor faction is the name of "Clans" "Guilds" "Whatevers" in this game.

All been here since Aug last year.

Yeah I'v read that Dev Update this morning. But this is somewhat a "clarification" on how the BGS works and a bit of info on how up coming changes affecting that part of the game is coming. Done as a group or in solo, playing with a BGS is not my cup of tea to be honnest.

And I do read "some" of the Dev updates. I should probably read them ALL but still....I think I do have a good picture of where this game is going. And sure have a clear feeling it wont cater much for players who enjoy a more "social" style of game play.

 

[Hellhawk666]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8368 and https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=166180

Interesting that the two polls show such opposed opinions. The first was started immediately after the kickstarter, and presumably mainly reflects the views of the original backers, many of who would be older players (no inference meant - I'm an '84 myself). The second is from mid 2015 when the game had a far greater population of new backers. It's hard to ignore the dramatic shift of opinion.

The game's chief architect (and Frontier's majority shareholder) has concerns with respect to the types of gameplay that guild / corp / clan (or rather in-game features for their management / fund / supply / domination) facilitate. While larger player social structures may be introduced at some point, I do not expect that Frontier will use the cookie cutter to duplicate their implementation from other games.

Newer players will probably not be aware of the strong emphasis that David Braben placed on preventing griefing during the Kickstarter. He was very specific about this, hence the lack of anything pertaining to in-game guilds, and the game's structure with open, private and solo play.

As you mentioned above, it seems likely that this was because DB knew that the majority of his demographic for the Kickstarter would be fans of the older games in the franchise, that many of them would be older players, and that some might never even have played another computer game since Elite. It's possible he assumed this demographic would be unwilling to back an online multiplayer game unless they had a firm commitment about preventing griefing, and thus we have the absence of some features that MMO players simply expect to be available.

I feel it's unlikely that anything to do with in-game guilds will ever be introduced, unless FD believes it is essential to keeping the game financially viable. 2016 is going to be an interesting year.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

And what about players who want to be in a group, but not play the BGS?

Would a boardroom/office/group chat channel and message board that could be used by minor factions and groups of players without a minor faction be that big of a deal or hard to put in the game?

How about groups who would rather play as mercenaris etc?

Lots of external tools to do so, far better than what could be in game.

Also, typing while in VR and/or using a HOTAS is a real pain in the butt.

DO NOT WANT.

 

[dementia]

That's a completely new one. Not only did I just learn that you can't grief without a clan, I've also learned that there's nothing besides griefing that clans can do. I hope you call the fuel rat that rescues you one day a griefer for doing this

Call the Guiness Book of Records! I think we have a candidate for the most stupid answer any one has every given in these forums! lol

 

[Robert Maynard]

Interesting that the two polls show such opposed opinions. The first was started immediately after the kickstarter, and presumably mainly reflects the views of the original backers, many of who would be older players (no inference meant - I'm an '84 myself). The second is from mid 2015 when the game had a far greater population of new backers. It's hard to ignore the dramatic shift of opinion.

The result in the later poll was not quite as much of a shift until the poll was advertised outside the forums with the intent of boosting support for one result - I watched the changes to the poll with interest as it progressed. Zero-day accounts were voting. Discussion on this phenomenon is in the thread in which the later poll sits. There is no requirement for forum users to own the game to be able to vote in any forum poll.

 

[andyraptor]

Call the Guiness Book of Records! I think we have a candidate for the most stupid answer any one has every given in these forums! lol

he has his moments... but sadly.... I'm probably way out in the lead on that particular record

 

[Quineloe]

From DBOBE's EGX 2014 Q&A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJzizYUEF9c;t=19:41

That's also when he said random player killing without consequences wouldn't be a thing in his game. How can we tell which ancient information applies today and which doesn't?

 

[Hellhawk666]

The result in the later poll was not quite as much of a shift until the poll was advertised outside the forums with the intent of boosting support for one result - I watched the changes to the poll with interest as it progressed. Zero-day accounts were voting. Discussion on this phenomenon is in the thread in which the later poll sits. There is no requirement for forum users to own the game to be able to vote in any forum poll.

Yes, I'm aware of that. There was posting and voting from "zero-day" accounts, but the problem is that there is no way of knowing exactly who that group comprised. It could have been mostly non-ED players drummed up to skew thew results, which is the assumption of those who did not like the result of the poll. It could also have been mostly ED players who use Reddit and Facebook as their communications avenues, had never previously joined the forum, but were encouraged to do so. It could be a combination of the two. We do not know.

That's also when he said random player killing without consequences wouldn't be a thing in his game. How can we tell which ancient information applies today and which doesn't?

Amen. Dare I say "god-like powers"?

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's also when he said random player killing without consequences wouldn't be a thing in his game. How can we tell which ancient information applies today and which doesn't?

Arguably there are consequences. Not particularly onerous consequences, but consequences nonetheless.

Which portions of publicly stated information one chooses to consider to be current is up to oneself, of course.

The interview with Arstechnica at E3 2015 is more recent and also states:

More standardized online gaming conventions like clans or formalized player organizations aren’t in the cards, at least not for the foreseeable future.