General / Off-Topic Atheist Goverments - The sword of reason

[Monolith Preacher]

So let me get this straight....the mods restart the thread, and instead of discussing where to find militant theocracies and anti-theocracies, it's devolved into another "science vs. religion" thread again within one page? Well done, I can see the tolls and peudo-trolls have got their methods well-oiled...

As usual, I'll stay out of it, and venture that perhaps people wouldn't be trying so hard to push their point if they didn't have some grain of crisis within their own sense of faith, be it towards raisins or dogs....

...and did anyone find a Monolith-rellated faction or hub, or even a militant theocracy? Seeing as the thread's re-started, I might as well re-ask...

 

[Marra Morgan]

I don't have to prove my gods exist, because my relationship with them is personal and no-one else's business.
And that's that.

Militant atheists and militant theists are the same thing, in my opinion; abhorent things that oppose our freedom to choose for ourselves.

 

[JuicerPrime]

The idea of a dictatorship or a totalitarian state could work for any militant faction, and Elite certainly has its fair share of questionable organizations so theoretically there's nothing to stop a militant atheist group fitting thematically into the setting. That said, practically it might be a bit of a pandora's box for the devs because of the potential for IRL conflict that might arise, so they're probably playing it neutral and safe on the topic of religion. Check out the comments section under any article on religion or atheism anywhere on the internet and see how long it takes before you feel like your eyes and brain need bleaching. We do not need to add that kind of reductive philosophical mud-slinging to the forums, we have enough trouble with the gameplay issue threads as it is

For what it's worth, I take the engineering approach to religion and atheism - if something helps a person get through life, gives them hope and meaning, and gives them something to base being a decent person in the human sense on, I don't care what it is. Atheism, anti-theism, religion - if it seems stupid and it works, then it isn't stupid. There are no medals handed out at the end of life for being correct, no awards bestowed for ideological adherence. The systemic universe is a very big, very scary place and it really doesn't care what you believe or whether it's right or wrong - it'll ignore and then kill you anyway. We - mankind - are verifiably all we've got at present, and I don't care if it's faith in human nature, a belief in the divine or an absolute certainty that ambulatory piles of pasta live amongst us in secret, if any of those personally motivate a person to keep the light of fellowship, respect, love and humanity burning and advance us towards a better future then I'll make room for their beliefs any day. The rest can work itself out in the wash

 

[Iskariot]

So let me get this straight....the mods restart the thread, and instead of discussing where to find militant theocracies and anti-theocracies, it's devolved into another "science vs. religion" thread again within one page? Well done, I can see the tolls and peudo-trolls have got their methods well-oiled...

The mod did not disapprove of the digression but of ad hominem attacks.
The original discussion was all but finished anyway.
I personally think the discussion is interesting.
If the mod had stated we were digressing too far I would not have answered MR_Blastman.

As usual, I'll stay out of it, and venture that perhaps people wouldn't be trying so hard to push their point if they didn't have some grain of crisis within their own sense of faith, be it towards raisins or dogs....

Your psychological insights are extraordinary.

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I don't have to prove my gods exist, because my relationship with them is personal and no-one else's business.
And that's that.

You are absolutely right of course if that is how you view your gods.
Many people feel differently and think it is important for others to believe in god or gods too, for all kinds of reasons.

Militant atheists and militant theists are the same thing, in my opinion; abhorent things that oppose our freedom to choose for ourselves.

I agree, but it depends somewhat on the level of militancy.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

That is easy.
Say out loud: God, if you exist at all, give me undeniable proof within 10 seconds.
Good luck!

That's only if you consider a God to be unicorns, fairies and happy faces. Good thing Atheism is all about faith.

 

[Caldric]

Governments are not atheist they are secular whole thing is moot.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Aawwww 2016 and some people are still using that as an argument. It might come as a surprise to you, but hey, you can't prove that something does not exist. You just can't.

I stopped reading there.

Once again you are falling under the Atheist fallacy that "Because God doesn't exist, there's nothing to prove."

While they simultaneously say to Creationists, "Well, go ahead, prove to us God DOES exist."

Yet... Atheists have zero definitive proof a God or Creator does not.

It is a circular dead end of lunacy. Atheism = Faith which = Religion.

If you are going to proclaim with certainty that something does not exist without proof of said claim, you yourself are faithful as well. There is no free pass. If you are going to make bold claims, you are subject to the same identical burden of proof as everyone else. Otherwise, admit it is simply faith and move on. Accept that it is a unproven belief as much as any other and exist in harmony with others.

 

[Iskariot]

Wahoo, up and running again...

So to paraphrase CS Lewis, God either exists or does not exist. No grey area in between
If he does exist then it is reasonable to assume that what he says about himself is true

Why? Can gods not be liars or deceivers?
CS Lewis believed in the christian god.
A god with a very bad reputation that includes multiple mass murders, blood sacrifice and slavery.
Would such a god not lie or deceive?

However, if he does exist then it is a matter of profound importance.

I completely agree.

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Good thing Atheism is all about faith.

No it is not, as I explained several times.
It is a very basic thing that must be understood if you want to understand atheism.

 

[Louella]

Governments are not atheist they are secular whole thing is moot.

The OP was wanting a government, that was actively anti-religious in nature.

Which, as far as I can see, is not the same as a secular government, and also, means that the citizens do not have the same kinds of rights and freedoms as citizens in other governments would have. Which would mean that the best fit would be "Dictatorship" type government in Elite.

Possibly also a xenophobic government as well, because of the points I mentioned in this post: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=221941&p=3398159&viewfull=1#post3398159

 

[Iskariot]

I stopped reading there.

Once again you are falling under the Atheist fallacy that "Because God doesn't exist, there's nothing to prove."

While they simultaneously say to Creationists, "Well, go ahead, prove to us God DOES exist."

Yet... Atheists have zero definitive proof a God or Creator does not.

It is a circular dead end of lunacy. Atheism = Faith which = Religion.

If you are going to proclaim with certainty that something does not exist without proof of said claim, you yourself are faithful as well. There is no free pass. If you are going to make bold claims, you are subject to the same identical burden of proof as everyone else. Otherwise, admit it is simply faith and move on. Accept that it is a unproven belief as much as any other and exist in harmony with others.

I addressed all these, what I believe to be, fundamental misconceptions extensively already.
And I am not the only one.

Ignoring arguments does not make them go away.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Why? Can gods not be liars or deceivers?
CS Lewis believed in the christian god.
A god with a very bad reputation that includes multiple mass murders, blood sacrifice and slavery.
Would such a god not lie or deceive?

I completely agree.

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No it is not, as I explained several times.
It is a very basic thing that must be understood if you want to understand atheism.

Jesus Christ was the embodiment of the Christian God and I dare anyone to find a single passage, teaching or saying by Jesus himself that says to bring harm upon another human being, hate someone, kill someone or do something despicable. You will not find it anywhere.

The God that is responsible for killing/murder/death/hate is the Islamic God. The Abrahamic one of the Old Testament, which is the Christian God, did condone slaughter of animals among other things but per the way the New Testament reads, those rituals are moot and the rules to abide by are the Ten Commandments and Jesus' teachings.

It is a common misconception to equate death, violence and hatred with Jesus Christ when in fact that is a logical fallacy and ignorance at best. Humans hurt other humans. Extremists hurt other humans. Ignorant fools /try/ and use faith as an excuse for what they do but unfortunately, when it comes to Christian ones, you will not find one if you search through what Jesus said.

As for Atheism, I hear what you are saying but in my eyes...

Agnostic = Does not know. Will accept either way--God or No God when given proof.

Atheist = Without God, does not believe in God/Gods and does not require proof.

Thus, it is faith. If someone proclaims there is no God, that is faith plain and simple. Without proof, it is faith.

However... someone may say, I do not "believe in God" and likewise say that I do "believe in God," and both positions would be valid as they are an opinion--and simultaneously a statement of personal faith in their own position.

An Agnostic is true neutral.

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Ignoring arguments does not make them go away.

Ignoring a God does not, either. Proof or no proof. And without proof, the God is in people's hearts. You can't cleanse that without killing a person... and not even Humanism endorses that.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

I sto

Very well then, I stopped there

Seriously, you seem to "stop reading" pretty soon, in many of your answers. Why do you even bother with an answer in more than one line, if you're going to tell the other "I don't care about your argument, I'm not reading it"? Two problems with this method: a) it does not serve the debate at all, and b) your answer is consequently completely off. Have fun with yourself, I wish you luck with that.

And I'm still waiting for you to prove that unicorns with hamster legs, burping rainbows and crapping emeralds incrusted gold ingots don't exist.

-Edit: Nevermind. Seeing the content of your latest answer, this thread is gonna get locked for eternity. BTW is there a heaven for locked threads?

 

[Iskariot]

Jesus Christ was the embodiment of the Christian God and I dare anyone to find a single passage, teaching or saying by Jesus himself that says to bring harm upon another human being, hate someone, kill someone or do something despicable. You will not find it anywhere.

The God that is responsible for killing/murder/death/hate is the Islamic God. The Abrahamic one of the Old Testament, which is the Christian God, did condone slaughter of animals among other things but per the way the New Testament reads, those rituals are moot and the rules to abide by are the Ten Commandments and Jesus' teachings.

As an ex-christian I know my bible. I still have a bookshelf filled with them.
The bible god Jesus believed in has a long criminal record of atrocities to his name.
I am not going to list them, although I could do so with ease.
There are entire websites devoted to this.
The details are simply horrifying and disgusting and it is all in your bible.

Many of the biblical laws and anecdotes are promoting sheer immoral behavior towards other people, like non-believers, people with other gods, priests of other faiths, homosexuals, women, slaves etc.
None of this was clearly revoked by Jesus, who was clearly a jewish believer and not a christian himself. He stated that all the laws should be upheld until the end of the world/times (Matthew 5:18). Christianity is an invention of Paul who did not even know Jesus in person. He even contradicted Jesus concerning the Law, which would be a big problem for christianity if they did not so happily ignore it.

It is a common misconception to equate death, violence and hatred with Jesus Christ

No it is not. The opposite is true. Many atheist believe Jesus, although just a human, was a great, special guy, a great teacher etc etc. while in reality that what he did teach (from what we can read in the bible) was quite mediocre and compared to other religions (like Buddhism or Hinduism) also very superficial and shallow.

However... someone may say, I do not "believe in God" and likewise say that I do "believe in God," and both positions would be valid as they are an opinion--and simultaneously a statement of personal faith in their own position.

It is not the believing/not believing in itself that is interesting, but the reasons for doing so.
I am still interested in a good reason for believing in a god.
I never heard one.

 

[Apos]

Jesus Christ was the embodiment of the Christian God and I dare anyone to find a single passage, teaching or saying by Jesus himself that says to bring harm upon another human being, hate someone, kill someone or do something despicable. You will not find it anywhere.

Luke 19:27

The God that is responsible for killing/murder/death/hate is the Islamic God. The Abrahamic one of the Old Testament, which is the Christian God, did condone slaughter of animals among other things but per the way the New Testament reads, those rituals are moot and the rules to abide by are the Ten Commandments and Jesus' teachings.

And the Islamic god is the same with the god of the christians and jews. He never changed, they just followed (or refused to on the case of jews) different prophets. A basic read of the Quran pretty much shows that and further studies from actually interested scholars show the connections and points where the split began as well.

And I'll have to agree that this is most likely the point where it will get derailed to a relock sadly.

 

[Mysturji]

Well then, Mister No-God, prove to me there is no God. The burden of truth lies on you. Prove to me it is so. I'm waiting. I imagine I'll be waiting a very long time.

A god, if it exists (BTW, which one? If you believe everything you read, there's thousands of 'em!), and does what it says on the tin, would...
1. Know what lind of evidence non-believers would need to convince them.
2. Be able to provide such evidence.
3. Want to.

I'm still waiting.

 

[Vasious]

Wasn't the discussion about adding a Minor-Faction rather than actual theology?

Regardless of if there are actually Divinities in RL or in the Elite universe, there are human political group which will claim what ever they like to be in power, be it the Federal democracies, Imperial Slavers or the Gnostolic Antipope

 

[Iskariot]

Wasn't the discussion about adding a Minor-Faction rather than actual theology?

Yes it was, but everything that can be said about that has been said.

 

[CMDR Heisenberg B. Damned]

Thus, it is faith. If someone proclaims there is no God, that is faith plain and simple. Without proof, it is faith.

I'm scientific enough to wait for evidence of anything but your position that saying "there is no god" without proof that there is no god is faith!?!?! Really? There is no proof that hobbits are real so are you suggesting if I say "the are no hobbits" that I'm wrong simply because I can't disprove their existence? Show me the proof god exists.

Oh and put your klackers away.

 

[Iskariot]

I'm scientific enough to wait for evidence of anything but your position that saying "there is no god" without proof that there is no god is faith!?!?! Really? There is no proof that hobbits are real so are you suggesting if I say "the are no hobbits" that I'm wrong simply because I can't disprove their existence? Show me the proof god exists.

Oh and put your klackers away.

If he is consistent in using that same reasoning when the gods of others are concerned than he will have to believe in all of them.
And of course he is not consistent.
They never are, or otherwise they would understand why the demand to prove the non existence of the god they happen to believe in is ridiculous.

To me it is very weird to see the irrational demand for the proof of non-existence of gods surface in religious reasoning again and again. I don't really get what is going wrong there. It seems so easy to understand what the problems of this demand are.

 

[CannibalHoliday]

Moderators, do your job and lock/delete this crap.