I just don't understand shields!

[Ow-Chi]

So as I spend more time out in the void and am trying out different ships I have been seeing discussions along the lines of "X has good shields but Y has better shields" and it baffles me. If comparing the same grade shield in two different ships in say Coriolis I see different results. I.e. a 5A shield in a Vulture lists 387 MJ, but the same 5A shield in an Asp Explorer is 208 MJ.

Can anyone help me understand - if a given shield is good in one ship how can the exact same shield not be as good in another?

And by the same token, how can I tell which ships benefit more from shields as opposed to say some HRPs? That is another line of discussion that always confuses me, i.e. "Ship Z does have very good shields so its better to load up on armor".

Huh?!

 

[Cmdr Cunomaglus]

The shield on an ASP has to cover a lot more volume (hull mass) than the same shield on a Vulture. Think of it as pouring water into a large shallow bowl or pouring the same amount of water into a tall, thin glass; the water in the glass will be a lot deeper.

HRPs I don't use so can't really comment on.

 

[Jon flint]

So as I spend more time out in the void and am trying out different ships I have been seeing discussions along the lines of "X has good shields but Y has better shields" and it baffles me. If comparing the same grade shield in two different ships in say Coriolis I see different results. I.e. a 5A shield in a Vulture lists 387 MJ, but the same 5A shield in an Asp Explorer is 208 MJ.

Can anyone help me understand - if a given shield is good in one ship how can the exact same shield not be as good in another?

And by the same token, how can I tell which ships benefit more from shields as opposed to say some HRPs? That is another line of discussion that always confuses me, i.e. "Ship Z does have very good shields so its better to load up on armor".

Huh?!

It's something to do with the optimal hull mass for that particular shield vs the mass of the ship you're using it with.

Something like a D3 shield may be just fine on a smaller ship, but stretch that shield around an anaconda and a stiff breeze will get through it.

Also the number of utility mounts for shield boosters makes a difference.

 

[Ow-Chi]

The shield on an ASP has to cover a lot more volume (hull mass) than the same shield on a Vulture. Think of it as pouring water into a large shallow bowl or pouring the same amount of water into a tall, thin glass; the water in the glass will be a lot deeper.

HRPs I don't use so can't really comment on.

So is a rule of thumb, the bigger the ship the less effective shields are?

It's something to do with the optimal hull mass for that particular shield vs the mass of the ship you're using it with.

Something like a D3 shield may be just fine on a smaller ship, but stretch that shield around an anaconda and a stiff breeze will get through it.

Also the number of utility mounts for shield boosters makes a difference.

Ah, hull mass! I see that a lot too. So if I am following you, the hull mass on the Asp E is 280t (according to Coriolis). The hull mass on the Vulture is 230t. Optimal mass for a 5A generator is 405t. Does that mean its best not to go over 405t, i.e. a Fed Corvette is 900 - so the same shield would not be as effective in a Corvette because it has more mass?

That makes some sense when the comparisons are really far apart like that, not so much for similar size ships. In the example of Asp vs. Vulutre, the hull mass on both is less than the optimal listed for a 5A - so by that reasoning the sheild should be identical on both. Unless I am still missing something....

 

[Zenny]

Hello Ow-Chi,

All ships have a basic value for shield strength that differs from each other. For example, the mentioned ASP has 152 MJ and the Vulture has 293 MJ.
The shield generator you install on a ship modifies that base shield strength, based on the quality and the size the shield. Basically it goes like this: SHIELD STRENGTH = BASE SHIELD STRENGTH * MODIFIER
This so called modifier contains the shield generator and shield boosters.
Basically your shield strength comes from your ship, not the generator. The generator only makes it stronger (or weaker if the generator is too small).

You can compare shield strengths here:

Source: http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/File:ED_Shields.png

 

[GammaZ]

It's something to do with the optimal hull mass for that particular shield vs the mass of the ship you're using it with.

Something like a D3 shield may be just fine on a smaller ship, but stretch that shield around an anaconda and a stiff breeze will get through it.

Also the number of utility mounts for shield boosters makes a difference.

Well, it is not just about mass/size, it is more like every ship has some hidden "base shield value", which is then modified by shield generator used.
Just compare already mentioned 3D on anaconda (140mJ) and asp (71mj)...

 

[Hemlock Reaper]

Actually one thing I never understood is why adding stuff to the inside of the ship affects to shield covering the outside. To my understanding the size of the ship isn't getting larger, its weight may increase but how does that affect shields other than just being in for game mechanics.

 

[GammaZ]

Actually one thing I never understood is why adding stuff to the inside of the ship affects to shield covering the outside. To my understanding the size of the ship isn't getting larger, its weight may increase but how does that affect shields other than just being in for game mechanics.

It does not.
Overall ship mass does not affect shield, only hull mass does.

 

[jgm]

It does not.
Overall ship mass does not affect shield, only hull mass does.

If you think of it as hull volume rather than hull mass it makes more sense for shields.

 

[Darth-Simba]

Only time hull mass changes is when you change the bulkheads I believe.

 

[jgm]

Only time hull mass changes is when you change the bulkheads I believe.

Nope hull mass stays the same regardless of the type of bulkheads equipped.

 

[Macy]

Hull mass never changes. Hull mass decides which class you need. Rating decides how strong the shield is. Optimal mass is is the hull mass the shield can work UPTO before diminishing.
There's no point fitting a class that is higher than required, it will just waste power and add unnecessary mass.
so, a Vulture fitted with a 5A shield will have hardly any advantage over a 4A, because the 4A is plenty big enough.

this is according to a post I read somewhere from some guys testing shields. They're findings were confirmed by Frontier. More MJ doesn't always equal stronger shields, it depends on the ships hull mass size. Extra unnecessary MJ are wasted, overflow.

pips to sys increase shield strength too.

but who knows for sure because we don't have any clear info from the devs.

 

[jgm]

There's no point fitting a class that is higher than required, it will just waste power and add unnecessary mass.
so, a Vulture fitted with a 5A shield will have hardly any advantage over a 4A, because the 4A is plenty big enough.

Higher class and higher grade both improve your overall shield strength.

 

[Macy]

Higher class and higher grade both improve your overall shield strength.

Thats what we all think. But testing shows different apparently. A 5A on a Vulture gave only 3% better protection in test than the 4A.
But takes longer to recharge. We need clear information about it all from the devs.
I've fitted a 5A on my Vulture just to be sure. If its overkill then thats ok by me anyway. I just use module priorities. But it would explain why the Vulture has power problems. Maybe we don't need the class 5 shield.

 

[jgm]

But testing shows different apparently. A 5A on a Vulture gave only 3% better protection in test than the 4A.

Source for the 3% number? The 5A shield increases strength 17% over the 4A shield in terms of MJ.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I'd love to recite the golden rule that Frontier has preached all along about shield rating being reliant on hull mass and size, but Frontier have never stuck to their own golden rule, and have just been making things up as they go.

So if you want to understand shields, just remember - It Is What It Is.

In other words.... That number.

 

[Macy]

Source for the 3% number? The 5A shield increases strength 17% over the 4A shield in terms of MJ.

shield class doesn't work the same as other things like weapons. Its just about hull mass. As long as the shield class is high enough for the hull mass. The hull mass is below the optimal mass of the shield.
I can't remember where the post was, redit I think. But they tested by shooting the same weapon at the same ship with the two different shield classes. The 5a lasted 3% longer thats all. I was surprised too.
Also a 5e has less MJ than a 4a. I don't really understand MJ. but I don't think MJ is the important factor, just the amount of power in the field.

I'm sticking with my 5A until we have proper info.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

But if class doesn't matter for strength, then a Sidewinders little shield would protect it as well as a Condas huge shield. That wouldn't make sense either.

 

[jgm]

shield class doesn't work the same as other things like weapons. Its just about hull mass. As long as the shield class is high enough for the hull mass. The hull mass is below the optimal mass of the shield.
I can't remember where the post was, redit I think. But they tested by shooting the same weapon at the same ship with the two different shield classes. The 5a lasted 3% longer thats all. I was surprised too.
Also a 5e has less MJ than a 4a. I don't really understand MJ. but I don't think MJ is the important factor, just the amount of power in the field.

I'm sticking with my 5A until we have proper info.

I'd be very suspect of their figures without seeing the detail. It's all based on MJ and the damage model as described by Mark Allen for shields is very simple: "the damage is multiplied by the shields' defences and health subtracted".

 

[X-Terminator]

It all needs explaining and perhaps sorting out so we then understand what best to choose.
There should be uses for either going Military Armour or above as opposed to the Highest Shields to fit - a balance for the ship's hull strength already vs the need for protection with number 1 priority for your role...
1 For small slow fighter they need Shields as this will go first and fast otherwise (can High Wake).
2 For small medium fighter they need Hull and Armour upgrades & ok Shields.
3 For small fast fighter they need good Shields as they can easily boost away when they go off.
For medium fighters it will be the same. If not a fighter then you need Speed first before added Hull - so ok Shields.
For large fighters (non are fast) they simply need Armour & Hull as they surely are there to fight!
If large but not fighters then then again do not need to run (no mass lock on smaller ships and can High Wake also) but high Shields can add protection generally.

 

[Martian Successor]

Hello Ow-Chi,

All ships have a basic value for shield strength that differs from each other. For example, the mentioned ASP has 152 MJ and the Vulture has 293 MJ.
The shield generator you install on a ship modifies that base shield strength, based on the quality and the size the shield. Basically it goes like this: SHIELD STRENGTH = BASE SHIELD STRENGTH * MODIFIER
This so called modifier contains the shield generator and shield boosters.
Basically your shield strength comes from your ship, not the generator. The generator only makes it stronger (or weaker if the generator is too small).

You can compare shield strengths here:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...Shields.png/revision/latest?cb=20150121204721
Source: http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/File:ED_Shields.png

Very much this chart. Good post by Zenny. This chart and the Wikipedia page on Shield Generators in Elite Dangerous helped me to understand the whole shield shindig.

Here's the wiki page link:
http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Generator

2 useful quotes from the Wiki page:

1) Shield strength is determined by rating and current ship's mass. Below the optimum hull mass a shield is rated for, shields work at capacity. Above the optimum, shields work on a diminished capacity. Over a certain amount above a shield's optimum mass is a maximum amount it can protect, at which point the field isn't able to be created.

2) Each ship has a base mass which is the main factor in determining how effective each shield type is. If the ship's base mass (doesn't include cargo or modules) is below the optimal then shield strength is increased by a modifier whereas if it is above optimal then the shield strength is decreased by a modifier.

Just remember each ship's mass always stays the same (the mass you can see on that chart and on the wiki page of a ship). You cannot change a ship's mass - i.e. how big it is. You can only change its weight. Hull reinforcement packages and armour upgrades add weight to the ship but they do not change the size of the ship - you may have slightly thicker bulk heads but that still doesn't alter the ship's size/profile.

I hope that helps. It can be confusing at first but once you get to grips with it, it becomes easier to understand.

Actually one thing I never understood is why adding stuff to the inside of the ship affects to shield covering the outside. To my understanding the size of the ship isn't getting larger, its weight may increase but how does that affect shields other than just being in for game mechanics.

It does not.
Overall ship mass does not affect shield, only hull mass does.

Like GammaZ said. The weight of your ship does not affect the shield strength. Shield strength is dictated by a ship's mass - in other words its size, and you cannot change a ship's size. You might be thinking of thrusters Hemlock Reaper. Thrusters are affected by a ship's weight - if the ship's weight is above the optimal weight that your thrusters can handle then it adds a negative modifier to your ship's manoeuvrability. If your weight is under the optimal range of your thrusters then you get a bonus to manoeuvrability.