My idea how to eliviate combat loging in open.

[dxm55]

I did state a few posts back, that educating people would serve better
Though sometimes the lesson has to be taught with consequences being brought forward

Even with education and punitive measures, some will slip through the cracks.
Just gotta accept the numbers and move on.

Personally I don't combat log.
I could. Really.
But I won't. There's no fun if there's no risk.
I've even died fighting NPC FDLs and Pythons in my Viper while bounty hunting in Hi Res, biting off more than I could chew.

 

[zxaber]

Ding ding ding. This.

I've frozen so many damned times whilst turning and burning in Hi RES it's not even funny. How would anyone even know I combat logged or got disconnected?

One moment I'm on the tail of that shields-down FDL hearing the cash register cha-cheeng on the next bounty payout. And the next, I hear my audio in a loop and the screen frozen, with said FDL at 5% hull.... and absolutely nothing I can do about it except to curse and swear at the screen and tab-out.


And yeah, what if my damned cat jumps on to the table and topples my router, taking out the internet connection, and I'm stuck with having to justify or prove my case just to get back ingame. So many other reasons why I could have "combat logged".
- Power in the house went out (FD may want to put a 15-minutes UPS as a recommended requirement in the game's package )
- Internet connection got cut because I didn't pay the bill / lightning storm outside took out the connection / etc etc
- My damned computer froze, BSOD'ed, blew up in my face, got taken out by an IED, etc etc
- Tornado hit my house and ripped said keyboard and PC out of my hands....

How to separate the intentional from the unintentional?


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Both the original suggest, as well as mine from a few pages ago, list a limited number of forgiven exits. Ideally, each would contain a message about how disconnecting while in combat is against the rules, and possibly list future punishment if it continues to be an issue. The occasional crash, then, would be exempt from consequences, but repeated abuse would carry out as normal.

Many people want to playing quietly in open-play without the possibility that a guy kills them without reason.
People who do mining or trading have no chance against a vessel equipped for combat, you want to make the game fun only for griefers?
If the game allows you to kill someone for no reason and without giving the victim the option of paying for life (for example a part of the cargo or an amount of credits) and griefers doesn't receive a severe punishment for murder for no reason, then you have to accept that these people who logged out to survive not receive a serious punishment.
Fight people that can defend himself, or give opportunities to those that can not defend themselves to survive in some way, or accept severe punishment for the murder without reason.
I have never used this trick, but I understand a miner or a trader with a cargo of several million, be attacked and killed for no reason and with no chance to defend himself.
So no, it's not a good idea

Fixing the game where it already need work is preferable to not enforcing rules already put in place. I agree, more in-game penalties for killing clean ships are needed. But the exploit should still be closed.

 

[shambles1980]

Meh, I always doubt complexity. My eyes glazed over reading that. So as far as I'm hearing, you would want one super secret method for a yearly ban parade..... I think I am loosing the warm and fuzzies over this idea. It wouldn't stop individual CL'ing, enough to satisfy the reason for it.

no..
you cant get accidentaly banned..
lets say the yearly total is 360 combat logs. (again the devs would come up with the number)
the chances of you actually getting to 360 in a year is really low if you do not actively and constantly combat log.
any given month with arbitrarily low records of combat loging would actually reduce your yearly total.
for-instance
less than 10 on a month may reduce your total by 1,
5 or less would reduce it by 3 and
0 would reduce it by 10 (again up for the devs to dcide)
this reduction is tallied after the total is added up, and before any action is taken on the player..

this would mean that people who always combat log get caught every week.
The ones that do 1 less than the weekly allowed would get caught by the monthly one.

people who occasionally crash during combat "or even frequently" would be safe.

and the ones who want to beat the system have a lot more maths to do than its worth while doing. and after about 20 logs they may be thinking.. I wonder how many more i can do before i end up in solo?

 

[dxm55]

Both the original suggest, as well as mine from a few pages ago, list a limited number of forgiven exits. Ideally, each would contain a message about how disconnecting while in combat is against the rules, and possibly list future punishment if it continues to be an issue. The occasional crash, then, would be exempt from consequences, but repeated abuse would carry out as normal.



Fixing the game where it already need work is preferable to not enforcing rules already put in place. I agree, more in-game penalties for killing clean ships are needed. But the exploit should still be closed.

It won't be an easy task, especially when there are still existing issues out there with the game freezing or crashing. Until FD decisively fixes those issues, can they then put out harsher penalties for combat loggers.

I mean, how do you penalize loggers when your game isn't 99% stable?


Next. Other than imposing harsher measures for combat logging, how about reducing the penalties for dying?
I know some people will whine about making the game "easy mode" and all. Fair enough.

But as I said, it is a social problem brought about by human nature. The fear of loss, despite knowing the risks.
If the loss wasn't as impactful, then people would be more inclined to accept the loss.

I'm not advocating anything yet. Just looking at it from another POV.

 

[jgm]

This does not take in to account the intelligent way of "combat logging", which is to kill the connection to the peers but not the server.

 

[maddog0606]

The only way to fix combat logging is to force everyone into Open only mode. They'll learn through pain.

Then I will slick this game and never buy another game from FD.

 

[dxm55]

This does not take in to account the intelligent way of "combat logging", which is to kill the connection to the peers but not the server.

Exactly. There's no way to completely fix this.

Oh wait... there is one. Acceptance on the part of the hunter, that his prey just got away.

 

[shambles1980]

This does not take in to account the intelligent way of "combat logging", which is to kill the connection to the peers but not the server.

there is a lot it does not cover.
But its the best i could come up with.. and at the least it should help alleviate the issue. which is the best i could hope for working from what i know and just paying attention to what the actuall server has to know, and what I assume is possible with what we have.

my main points were:
help show combat loggers they shouldnt do it.
make as easy as possible to intergrate with what we have.
keep it server side to stop abuse
try to reduce or if possible eliminate the need to have staff monitoring it (make it as cost effective as possible)
and
make it fair for all.

I have done my best to follow those boundaries.
And I do think its possible to implement..
Also i thought about preventing group from being join able as well as open, but i did think that was possibly slightly too harsh.
The combat loggers could always end up in mobius or something during there week away. and decide that they prefer it. which is perfectly fine.
If they decided they prefer open then they will understand that combat logging is a no no.
because the devs saying it does not seem to mean a thing.
in-fact A lot of them dont even seem to realize it is actually cheating.

 

[zxaber]

This does not take in to account the intelligent way of "combat logging", which is to kill the connection to the peers but not the server.

That's a byproduct of P2P. But it doesn't mean we can't stop logging where possible.

Exactly. There's no way to completely fix this.

Oh wait... there is one. Acceptance on the part of the hunter, that his prey just got away.

Belittling the other speaker is the worst way to handle a discussion.

 

[dxm55]

Belittling the other speaker is the worst way to handle a discussion.

Belittle him?
Far from it. I repped him, and was actually adding on to his point.

 

[zxaber]

Belittle him?
Far from it. I repped him, and was actually adding on to his point.

Not so much him, but belittling players who target others.

Acceptance on the part of the hunter, that his prey just got away.

Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit on that accusation. I guess I'm sorta getting tired of people straw-manning against PvP with the idea that the only reason anyone would attack another is for the kill and nothing else.

 

[dxm55]

Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit on that accusation. I guess I'm sorta getting tired of people straw-manning against PvP with the idea that the only reason anyone would attack another is for the kill and nothing else.

No probs buddy.

I PVP infrequently. Perhaps 10% of the time. And sometime the guy high wakes and gets away, sometime he outflies me and kicks my a5s instead, and the occasional combat logger.
No big deal. Can't win all the time.

 

[crushdepth]

The only way to fix combat logging is to force everyone into Open only mode. They'll learn through pain.

That's not going to happen. The fact that solo and group modes exist show that FD want to give players the option for a griefer-free environment.

 

[shambles1980]

That's not going to happen. The fact that solo and group modes exist show that FD want to give players the option for a griefer-free environment.

pretty sure its a troll because it wouldn't solve it at all

 

[Siobhan]

What is the point of all this constant whining about logging? Do some people really need to kill another player that badly in order to give themselves some sense of worth?

Some do, even so far as to demand compensation...

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Ho ho. Click bait. Can't... can't stop myself.

Remove OPEN and make it OFFLINE. Problem solved.

Nah, people combat log against AI these days. Didn't you notice? It's the new thing!

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That's not going to happen. The fact that solo and group modes exist show that FD want to give players the option for a griefer-free environment.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Open is not full of griefers. Open is quite a fun place. The only people who say it is full of griefers are those who don't play Open.

 

[shambles1980]

Some do, even so far as to demand compensation...

submitting a ticket because some one cheated, and being given compensation. is not the same as demanding compensation.

Its a bit like how being killed by a human is no more griefing than being killed by an npc.

And how CL is cheating and not an "annoyance"

Some peoples ability to comprehend this sort of stuff is a bit lacking.

Nah, people combat log against AI these days. Didn't you notice? It's the new thing!

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Hahahahahahahahaha. Open is not full of griefers. Open is quite a fun place. The only people who say it is full of griefers are those who don't play Open.

Thats when the people stay arround long enough.
some people log off when they see you on the radar (which is allowed)

Others will stick about long enough to talk, but they arent doing power play so i dont fight them (unless they attack me, but they dont).

and others will stick around long enough for you to think OH good some one who wants to actually play. and then they will log off.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

As for knowing when they are in combat.
The server we have now as it is, has to know when you are in combat...
You interdict any one you get a fine. the server has to know that or the fine couldn't stand.
(combat started)

You shoot some one you get a bounty (again the server has to know that)
(combat in progress)

I am sorry but I need to disagree here.

The combat isn't started if an Interdiction event was successfull. There has been an interdiction only. What happens next is not decided yet.
If a player shots a ship is just an event 'Player shooting ship', there is no combat yet, even if 1 party obviously likes to have one.

The events are enough to put fines/bounties to the player(s), but it isn''t do decide if there is a combat or not.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[Siobhan]

submitting a ticket because some one cheated, and being given compensation. is not the same as demanding compensation.

Its a bit like how being killed by a human is no more griefing than being killed by an npc.

And how CL is cheating and not an "annoyance"

Some peoples ability to comprehend this sort of stuff is a bit lacking.

I understand, I just disagree.

Being killed by a human is not griefing, I completely agree, although I fail to get the mentality of someone who thinks they're entitled to kill another player... Being attacked more than once in a short time by the same player (I'd say about a week) outside of CZ, PP etc., IS.

TBH I've never combat logged, but then I avoid open and play in Mobius. That said, if a player attacked me in Mobius (it does happen when we're infiltrated), then I'd not hesitate if I thought I couldn't win. Would you still accuse me of cheating, even when the Mobius Charter says that there's to be no PvP?

I'd also disagree with what constitutes "in combat". To me, until the designated victim has returned fire, then that player has not consented to PvP combat and can do what they like. Once they have returned fire, then as far as I'm concerned, it's now consensual and they have no right to combat log.

Agree or disagree, it's nothing to me except that I see all these people throwing their toys out of the pram because people don't want to stay around to have their game spoiled by bullies.

 

[shambles1980]

I understand, I just disagree.

Being killed by a human is not griefing, I completely agree, although I fail to get the mentality of someone who thinks they're entitled to kill another player... Being attacked more than once in a short time by the same player (I'd say about a week) outside of CZ, PP etc., IS.

TBH I've never combat logged, but then I avoid open and play in Mobius. That said, if a player attacked me in Mobius (it does happen when we're infiltrated), then I'd not hesitate if I thought I couldn't win. Would you still accuse me of cheating, even when the Mobius Charter says that there's to be no PvP?

I'd also disagree with what constitutes "in combat". To me, until the designated victim has returned fire, then that player has not consented to PvP combat and can do what they like. Once they have returned fire, then as far as I'm concerned, it's now consensual and they have no right to combat log.

Agree or disagree, it's nothing to me except that I see all these people throwing their toys out of the pram because people don't want to stay around to have their game spoiled by bullies.

Instancing makes it very difficult for some one to deliberately single out some one to attack repeatedly.
And being attacked by the same human twice in 1 week is FAR from being singled out..
That human you remember attacked you 5 days ago, probably does not even remember ever seeing you before.

Now lets talk NPC's i get attacked by the same wing of 3 npc's 10 times in a row because they have no fsd cool down. In my un sheilded asp just as i get to the station to drop off my cargo.
How is that not "griefing" as you describe it? Its even worse than what you describe.
yet not only is it allowed it is actually programmed behaviour.

if you get interdicted by a human. then you can escape after 10 seconds if you submitted. they have to wait 30 additional seconds before they can follow you. this makes the NPC behaviour impossible to emulate by a human. and yet Simply because it is a human it is called "griefing" even though it is infinity less problematic than the npc behaviour.
Now i know people CL to the npc's too. but the npc's cant come and say "i was combat loged on"
Im sure if they could. some people would then also start labeling NPC's As griefers. and then you would understand the depth of the issue.

I am sorry but I need to disagree here.

The combat isn't started if an Interdiction event was successfull. There has been an interdiction only. What happens next is not decided yet.
If a player shots a ship is just an event 'Player shooting ship', there is no combat yet, even if 1 party obviously likes to have one.

The events are enough to put fines/bounties to the player(s), but it isn''t do decide if there is a combat or not.

Regards,
Miklos

It is though. if you disconnect without using the menu during or after you have been interdicted. then it is a combat log. (unless of you win the interdiction. which does have a message state attached to it, so hopfully could be hooked too as well)

Again If you use the menu to exit the game then it is not a combat log. Because the dev's have imposed a timer to prevent you combat logging. and so that option of wait it out and hope for the best is allowed.

And again as set out by the devs, loging out "without using the game menu" to prevent damage or danger is combat logging.
so if 1 player shoots another player that is combat.

your definition of combat does not matter.
the devs definition of combat logging is the only thing that does matter.
And its the devs definition that was used to base the idea on.