Yes PVP is unfair.

[dxm55]

Hey FD, I combat log against people that me off, if you choose to ban me from playing the game you break a few laws by doing so as according to the tos and eula they wrote its not illegal or bannable. https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/ed-eula/ and thus can you not revoke me from playing the game.

But yes, it does make me a scumbag, I would say it puts me on the same level as someone griefing, the difference is I guess i Have the balls to admit it, and say what I do. thats how much of a problem and annoyance those kind of PVPers are to me in games, they are allowed to grief and aimlessly be s, but doing the one thing against them that es them off, the only one thing you can truly to do give them the same feeling, and its shunned upon like saying the unholy words in a church. I find that amusing

Well, FD did say that griefing is a valid form of gameplay, while specifically saying that combat logging is essentially cheating.

At this point in time, I have not heard of enforcement against CLs yet. Probably because of the very delicate griefer/CL issue.
But that could change.

Imagine how ironic it would be if a trader was given a 3 day lockout/ban for CL'ing from another player whom PvE'ers would consider a griefer.
That would cause quite an outroar, I would imagine.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Sorry you were right, insurance removal was a bad example, however it could be reserved for the 'worst of the worst' persistent offenders.

I'm glad to see you have come around to my way of thinking (Big cheesy grin) Your examples are great above. As was the suggestion from someone earlier in the thread about a broadcast saying how long till police intervention 'Aggression detected, police en-route, expected ETA 30 seconds' or whatever. Really builds the immersion in the game.

A reputation system might work as well. Something that varies between 'Upright Citizen to Dastardly Pirate' (I'm sure there's lots of people out there that would love to be an "Elite Dastardly Pirate" on the run in every system they visit, KOS for the authorities, the worst of the worst and scum of the universe getting away with murder at a price.

Wait just a minute there...
While I've always been a proponent of free play and killing, I have also supported the notion of more realistic in-game (emphasis: not real life) penalties against players with a penchance for risky and aggressive playstyles.

It's simple actually. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[_Dastardly_]

Lower high-sec profit and increase low-sec profit at the same time.

Agreed, although you have to be careful or that could also drive people out of open if the profits are too high in low-sec but there are more player pirates. It would probably need careful balancing.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Agreed, although you have to be careful or that could also drive people out of open if the profits are too high in low-sec but there are more player pirates. It would probably need careful balancing.

It'd be an interesting sight to see player pirates' number increase, but of course, balancing should accommodate that.

 

[Alpha087]

Agreed, although you have to be careful or that could also drive people out of open if the profits are too high in low-sec but there are more player pirates. It would probably need careful balancing.

Nothing is going to stop players who want to avoid PvP from doing so. You could say there's already a risk with attempting the long range Shadow Deliveries because there's only a handful of easy to find stations that offer them and of course you can expect blockades to camp these sorts of places. So you shouldn't really balance it around that; In fact, it'd probably be better for the game for both PvE and PvP to have low-sec be more dangerous and more profitable.

 

[Kezha]

Sure, everyone has their own principles, but when it runs contrary to the established nomocracy we fall under, it's a part of social contract to comply with essential standards. Think of it this way, if everyone playing chess started disregarding rules and claim that it runs contrary to their principle to force a certain piece to move a certain way and therefore disobeying the rule, then we don't have a game left at all.

If you are combating logging to "make people angry," then I must comment in all honesty that I find it terribly unproductive and toxic. People that attack you without hailing could very much be enjoying the game and RPing as a silent player, and doing that is within the confinement of the rules of the game. But in turn, because you interpreted the intention of the player in a certain manner, you then try to upset these players on purpose by using a method developers stated to be cheating, it seems like the one at fault seems to be you instead of the player that attacked you.

I agree, and perhaps I worded myself wrong, no the purpose is not to off people. I might do a scummy thing but the intent is not to just make others angry, and no if someone is silent and doesnt bother and attack, fine by me. I don't combat log against anyone, and I do love some PVP.

A lot more depth goes into it, I will often try to fly and manouver around the assailaint and question them, well possible, and doable, quite entertaining as well. But when its nothing but a wall of silence, I'll pass. Sounds like i combat log immidiately and without thought as well, just to debunk it for those reading, no I do not.

I have combat logged a few times yes, but its not a habbit and its not often.

And in the chess example, they went aside of the rules, these are too people that know well the rules of what they play and have read them up and down. I understand what you mean though, but I don't feel it applies directly.

Combat logging is lowly low and scummy to do, and reading the games rules that FD has written, its a loophole, should not be allowed, fullheartedly can say that it should be punishable, but today, as of right now, it is not. their TOS and EULA has a lot of loopholes but that is a whole other kind of worry where combat logging would be the least of worries.

And again, that there is silent killers, sure, there will always be, always have and will for all forseeable future remain. And I am not against it, or them.

Worth noting out of the times I have done it, most have added me to shout at me, because theres no "faction" limit like other games disallowing one to talk to another, and only one case did the assailant refuse to see any other side than wanting to make others angry by killing anyone and everything that moved, he was quite interesting but thankfully the minority.

Also, not trying to excuse it, just trying to tell a different side to the coin, for those wondering

Well, FD did say that griefing is a valid form of gameplay, while specifically saying that combat logging is essentially cheating.

Likely not heard actions against it against it as its sadly not in the TOS EULA that I linked to.

What is the source aside of the games official rules against it? I don't think anyone sane would claim to to be a scumbag move. No doubt, but where have they said it is illegal, and why is it not in the TOS or EULA?

 

[dxm55]

Agreed, although you have to be careful or that could also drive people out of open if the profits are too high in low-sec but there are more player pirates. It would probably need careful balancing.

Well, it could be implemented in another way instead of reducing profits in high sec system. We don't always have to penalize something to add bonuses elsewhere.

You could simply leave the high sec system profits alone, but add a 10% bonus for lo-sec systems, and maybe up to a 20% bonus for anarchy systems. Only in Open, of course. I'm sure bonuses can be flagged by game modes.

Think of them as risk incentives. The higher the risks, the higher the returns.... if you make it out alive, of course.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Combat logging is lowly low and scummy to do, and reading the games rules that FD has written, its a loophole, should not be allowed, fullheartedly can say that it should be punishable, but today, as of right now, it is not. their TOS and EULA has a lot of loopholes but that is a whole other kind of worry where combat logging would be the least of worries.

Developers stated that it is what they consider to be cheating, and there has been past examples of shadowbanning, which is in line with their TOS and EULA.

Edit:

Specifically, article three, section c in conjunction with article article seven, section three clause two.

 

[Kezha]

Developers stated that it is what they consider to be cheating, and there has been past examples of shadowbanning, which is in line with their TOS and EULA.

One could take some things of it and apply it to ban people for mentioning "I like turtles" its the same kind of layered greyzone thing all games seems to have. But FD has few can and can't do's

I mentioend it because the TOS and EULA is lacking in direct things. it creates massive loopholes and makes stuff like Combat Logging remain a scumbag move that is shunned upon, But while saying that griefing falls under the exact same paragraph. and if someone got banned for it, and I hate myself for how I sound saying this, I hope those did take it up a higher notch against FD, I know its against quite a lot of laws for media and entertainment at least in my country to deny someone and where "greyzone" stuff isn't valid. It has to be direct and clear what you can and can't do, and example actions of what is considered "bannable".

And if someone got banned for Combat Logging, and no one ever got smack for griefing, that is not really good either even if FD cherishes one and shuns the other, because both fall under the same paragraphed greyzone where they are both then bannable and against it, their both scumbag things, but if the fall under the same legislation and one is allowed and one isnt, does that not make FD twofaced?

 

[GluttonyFang]

One could take some things of it and apply it to ban people for mentioning "I like turtles" its the same kind of layered greyzone thing all games seems to have. But FD has few can and can't do's

I mentioend it because the TOS and EULA is lacking in direct things. it creates massive loopholes and makes stuff like Combat Logging remain a scumbag move that is shunned upon, But while saying that griefing falls under the exact same paragraph. and if someone got banned for it, and I hate myself for how I sound saying this, I hope those did take it up a higher notch against FD, I know its against quite a lot of laws for media and entertainment at least in my country to deny someone and where "greyzone" stuff isn't valid. It has to be direct and clear what you can and can't do, and example actions of what is considered "bannable".

And if someone got banned for Combat Logging, and no one ever got smack for griefing, that is not good, and at that point the TOS And EULA could as they currently are pose a lot of issues, which is not good, which is why I mentioned them in the regard I did

I included the parts of the EULA and TOS in the edit of the last post.

The issue with griefing is that it is loosely defined, and FD holds the absolute rights to define griefing. There are a lot of complaints about perceived griefing, but actual griefing is almost non-existent, because this game makes griefing almost impossible with its design and the developers' attitude about typical action associated with griefing, such as ganking, kill stealing, and station ramming where people fly cheap ships and ram expensive speeding ships.

Combat logging on the other hand, it is clear cut, as the developers have gave precise definition for in another thread.

Edit:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778&p=1642728&viewfull=1#post1642728

 

[Remiel]

...I think that anyone who just kills other players "because they can" is actively subjecting themselves to being shunned by those of the community who don't agree with that sort of behavior. ...

Actively subjecting themselves to being shunned?

So people that behave a certain way are actively subjecting themselves to being shunned by people who disagree with that behaviour?

Like gay people actively subject themselves to being shunned by homophobes?

Let me make one thing clear - the person that feels the need to apply subjective morality to pixels is a person I have no problem being shunned be, because I've already shunned them as pathetic morality police that don't get to tell me how to play a video game. Capiche?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I also let my kids run in the street, an enviorment where a car can hit them when they sit on the lawn. So the driver should not be charged and if I hold a grudge against him I'm the bad person? (overexagerated example)

You said it yourself: bad hyperbole is bad.

And yes, you are making excuses. Bad ones. Combat logging is bannable, as noted above by another poster, regardless of your crappy excuses, so I too hope someone records and reports you for it.

 

[Kezha]

I included the parts of the EULA and TOS in the edit of the last post.

The issue with griefing is that it is loosely defined, and FD holds the absolute rights to define griefing. There are a lot of complaints about perceived griefing, but actual griefing is almost non-existent, because this game makes griefing almost impossible with its design and the developers' attitude about typical action associated with griefing, such as ganking, kill stealing, and station ramming where people fly cheap ships and ram expensive speeding ships.

Combat logging on the other hand, it is clear cut, as the developers have gave precise definition for in another thread.

Edit:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778&p=1642728&viewfull=1#post1642728

Thank you for the source.

And griefing is very definable and do fall under the same paragraph.

The thing is that combat logging still is not clearly defined in the TOS and EULA, now at least theres proof that they said they see it as an exploit, and not part of the game. But pointing to TOS and EULA, loopholes, banning people for it wont serve well if someone decides to utilize what they can against the action. And because of those loopholes people being on the other end are allowed to roam freely, whilest the attacked one can't do anything at all, squat zero nada. Combat Logging puts a light on it, and makes the assailaints feel annoyed, whilst not a goal to do so. Those who have witnessed it, rather than being angry try to think why they did it (that goes for all the parts too not just if you witness combat logging but if you get ganked to, and getting ganked once is never reason to combat log, hell even I have not done that, I've done it to repeat offenders only. Even in my first post about it, I did it twice, but I guess i should mention it was times nr 2 and 3 I combat logged, on nr 1 He killed me.)

Griefing in itself is very easy to combat and most games class it as not allowed, you can't get banned for it, but you can and will get warnings for it. This would be stuff such as blocking entrances to stations, killing lowbies constantly, purposfully try to get inbetween fire of a ship and another in a res to get them to get fines and wanted statuses.

These are things that once or twice is OK, but as soon as its something happening often, its griefing, FD might not say it so, and PVPers might defend themselves behind that, but in the general world of gaming, those things repeated would both be up for warnings and suspensions and possibly banning it.


And since no one has mentioend it, combat logging is incredibly easy to counter, if you suddenly disconnect for X reason, which can be detected by servers, well then your stuck hanging there for a few minutes because yay cache, then combat loggers will meet an insurance claim screen on returning. and if someone wants to do it desperately enough to cut power, or drag out the network cable thats just desperate. I at least click escape and exit game more effort than that I can't be bothered doing the few times its happened.

You said it yourself: bad hyperbole is bad.

And yes, you are making excuses. Bad ones. Combat logging is bannable, as noted above by another poster, regardless of your crappy excuses, so I too hope someone records and reports you for it.

I'm not using excuses, there is a difference from admitting something and excusing it away, I'm giving you a reason, not an excuse.

And no, a forum post hardly passes for TOS or EULA, its a greyzone and you can argue it up and down, but untill otherwise if FD banned anyone except extreme repeat offenders for it, well depending on where you are you could possibly get rich because yay lawsuits..

 

[_Dastardly_]

Actively subjecting themselves to being shunned?

So people that behave a certain way are actively subjecting themselves to being shunned by people who disagree with that behaviour?

Like gay people actively subject themselves to being shunned by homophobes?

Let me make one thing clear - the person that feels the need to apply subjective morality to pixels is a person I have no problem being shunned be, because I've already shunned them as pathetic morality police that don't get to tell me how to play a video game. Capiche?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



You said it yourself: bad hyperbole is bad.

And yes, you are making excuses. Bad ones. Combat logging is bannable, as noted above by another poster, regardless of your crappy excuses, so I too hope someone records and reports you for it.

Lets not get off subject. We know combat loggings IS bad, it is punishable by banning HOWEVER frontier have done nothing to advertise this in-game, in the launcher or to new players. The only way they can find out about it is by being reported for doing it or actually going and finding out on the forums. (different subject lets leave it shall we?)

 

[Remiel]

Lets not get off subject. We know combat loggings IS bad, it is punishable by banning HOWEVER frontier have done nothing to advertise this in-game, in the launcher or to new players. The only way they can find out about it is by being reported for doing it or actually going and finding out on the forums. (different subject lets leave it shall we?)

Which is why first-offenders who get reported will probably receive a warning against repetition of the offence. And combat logging is directly related to the topic at hand, because it's what throws out the balance of PVP in this game the most, especially considering that PVP'ers can do it as easily as traders and explorers not looking for a fight.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

The problem is that the perceived griefing most people complain about is not considered griefing by FD, while combat logging is defined and considered cheating.

People that are perceived to be griefing aren't exploiting loopholes, their acts are mostly considered legitimate gameplay. Then people try to label these acts as illegitimate while developers and FD state otherwise, and use these as a justification to combat log, which doesn't add up.

TOS and EULA aren't suppose to be precise, since they are suppose to give flexibility for the company to utilize, so it doesn't surprise me that CL isn't mentioned specifically, but as I've mentioned, the two sections I mentioned are used to justify shadow-banning people.

Edit: Needs some sleep .-. zzz

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

Hey FD, I combat log against people that me off, if you choose to ban me from playing the game you break a few laws by doing so as according to the tos and eula they wrote its not illegal or bannable. https://www.frontierstore.net/eur/ed-eula/ and thus can you not revoke me from playing the game.

But yes, it does make me a scumbag, I would say it puts me on the same level as someone griefing, the difference is I guess i Have the balls to admit it, and say what I do. thats how much of a problem and annoyance those kind of PVPers are to me in games, they are allowed to grief and aimlessly be s, but doing the one thing against them that es them off, the only one thing you can truly to do give them the same feeling, and its shunned upon like saying the unholy words in a church. I find that amusing

You are absolutely right. There is and never should be a way to force me to obey to the "rules" of another player, when this player is performing a task solely to serve his/her own pleasure and this action has no representation in the game mechanic, like CZ, PP or a bounty on my head. To log out seems to be the only proper answer to such behavior atm.

There is nothing in the game to deal with the "I kill because I want and I can!"-type of player. Put consequences for such actions ingame, let them be harsh. And maybe make it rewarding on the other side. So that people have to decide which way to take - but if you pick one side it should restrict access to the other side. There is too little love for a proper career on "the dark side", but thats another point.

ED is not the first game to show that you cannot rely on the sanitiy of the players. Usually there has to be a strong set of rules. Many players like to check out how far they can stretch the borders of this rules. Which is a good thing on one side because its showing flaws in game mechanic, but on the other side allows situations like noob-killing, which, I guess, is not to be punished.

This one is a hard nut to crack, but only FD can put something in the game to deal with the many, many different ways to approach this game. I deeply hope they deliver. Crossing roads with other CMDRs is one of the nicest things in ED for me. Filling these encounters with sense, reason and consequence would add so much to it.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

It all comes down to game mechanics. Being a murderer has no punishment / consequence. If you are a known murderer... the game should force you to stick to anarchy only systems all the time. If you show your face in a civilized system... you're space dust.

You should have bounty hunters gunning for you all the time -- after all, you're worth millions dead and bounty hunters want that cash. So much so, they will come looking for you to get it!

If somebody kills you, it should be a massive hit to you financially (your ship is claimed as reward money? Assets seized to pay for bounty? Don't know specifics, you get the idea).... Why? Because murderers can't get insurance from state farm. A known murderer isn't getting an insurance claim... he's going to jail, paying his fines, etc.

If you're a pirate, you're not murdering people for the fun of it. A trader might blow up every now and again... but you're not going to have a dozen murders on your tab.

Have a "white flag" option. If you are killed during a "white flag", that is murder and white flag murder comes with the largest of penalties. "White Flag" disables weaponry and kills ship engines, so there's crapola going on with turning it on and off.

There are MANY MANY ways to address the problems the game has, dividing the player base, in my opinion, is the laziest way to fix them.

 

[Kezha]

The problem is that the perceived griefing most people complain about is not considered griefing by FD, while combat logging is defined and considered cheating.

People that are perceived to be griefing aren't exploiting loopholes, their acts are mostly considered legitimate gameplay. Then people try to label these acts as illegitimate while developers and FD state otherwise, and use these as a justification to combat log, which doesn't add up.

TOS and EULA aren't suppose to be precise, since they are suppose to give flexibility for the company to utilize, so it doesn't surprise me that CL isn't mentioned specifically, but as I've mentioned, the two sections I mentioned are used to justify shadow-banning people.

Edit: Needs some sleep .-. zzz

That is my issue, FD is one of the few games where griefers have the developers backs telling them to go out and go on doing it. Whilst they likely said it is allowed, equal to saying Combat logging is not, its not documented in the proper sources, meaning action they do against either or would not be so good as its not clearly defined (yes I know they posted combat logging is not allowed, but in one year they have not updated the TOS and EULA accordingly) which is sad. it should be documented properly and is not. That was my point.

Though we are getting a bit off topic, I think

 

[GluttonyFang]

That is my issue, FD is one of the few games where griefers have the developers backs telling them to go out and go on doing it. Whilst they likely said it is allowed, equal to saying Combat logging is not, its not documented in the proper sources, meaning action they do against either or would not be so good as its not clearly defined (yes I know they posted combat logging is not allowed, but in one year they have not updated the TOS and EULA accordingly) which is sad. it should be documented properly and is not. That was my point.

Though we are getting a bit off topic, I think

I think it's because the mode systems were created for this. People can perfectly avoid people who will act in ways they don't accept nor approve of. I personally don't believe that the perceived griefing some of the community complain about is actually griefing, and that's the majority of complaints. As for TOS and EULA, like I said, the elastic/vague nature of these legal documents is to allow the company to utilize it to their advantage.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

(...)

There are MANY MANY ways to address the problems the game has, dividing the player base, in my opinion, is the laziest way to fix them.

I really like your ideas, this should be the direction to go.

And the truth in your last sentence is just sad.

 

[Kezha]

I think it's because the mode systems were created for this. People can perfectly avoid people who will act in ways they don't accept nor approve of. I personally don't believe that the perceived griefing some of the community complain about is actually griefing, and that's the majority of complaints. As for TOS and EULA, like I said, the elastic/vague nature of these legal documents is to allow the company to utilize it to their advantage.

Exaclty, and that is in my opinion a far bigger problem than any system or security or NPC interferance when it comes to PVP, for the larger part PVP is OK.

But the griefing and complaining, in my opinion, is due to the major lack of communication. If someone has a bounty, they know their fair game, its when you read about people being camped, or losing X months \ years of gameplay, its viable, its possible, but why on earth would one consider that fair game. It is just forced upon bad behaviour that is not even interaction with a player more than "oh someone is placing their weaponry" upon me.

And it should be a fear of open play, it should make open play thrilling, but the lack of purpose takes the thrill away, and scares people to other modes. and with good reason sadly. Those who do enjoy a good round of proper PVP and there are many, would likely agree, or?