I think the issue with that is that if FD promote or encourage a criminal action (against the environment, not other players), which is the case quite often in the majority of missions listed on the BB, then the punishment needs to be sufficiently 'forgiving' considering that this is a game that we are (presumably) playing for fun.
Yes PVP is unfair.
- Thread starter _Dastardly_
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I think the issue with that is that if FD promote or encourage a criminal action (against the environment, not other players), which is the case quite often in the majority of missions listed on the BB, then the punishment needs to be sufficiently 'forgiving' considering that this is a game that we are (presumably) playing for fun.
And this exactly why we have the current poor state of affairs. My friends have made it quite clear. If the game mechanic is such that their investment of time and effort are not protected, then there are many other games where their play time is considered by the designers to be valued more. My friends are quite willing to live with monthly fees playing games where they don't need to worry about loosing everything because some people believe death should cost, quite literally, the future of the game for driving away current players and preventing MANY from ever trying.
While your logic for keeping the cost of dying may be sound, many, many players are going to imitate electricity and follow the path of least resistance. Your logic fails to recognize the value players place on the investment they make when playing the game. If death is too expensive, then playing is not worth their time invested.
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I like that too. If there's an official "piracy protocol" that both pirates and traders have to abide by (defined by the Pilots Federation as a way to minimize loss of ships and cargo), then the one who breaks protocol gets the short end of the stick. When interdicting, announce intent to pirate in the official way. Trader is allowed to try and escape interdiction, but if they submit or lose they need to remain below 100m/s - speeding or firing breaks protocol and the pirate may fire at will with no consequences. If the pirate fires on a trader that is following protocol, they get the Dredd treatment. If both follow protocol, then the trader can claim cargo insurance when they arrive at port. All this should be measurable by the game engine, so there can be no "he said she said" where PvP occurs.
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no loss pvp would eliminate piracy...
There is no reason at all why some one would jetteson cargo for a pirate if they dont stand to lose anything if they refuse to do so.
it would also make life hell for newbies, there are plenty of people killing them now with the possible risk of losing their stuff if a bigger boy comes and takes out vengeance.
remove that slight risk and then there is no reason not to do it..
no loss pvp would make the game a lot worse for every one apart from the pvp only (consensual or gankers).
A lot of people dont realize that.
And it virtually eliminates piracy as a career path.
and for pvp off flag.
how many traders would pirates have to interdict a day before they found one they could actually pirate?
In this instance the only people to suffer is the pirates But it is a valid game play choice, and you cant simply remove it because youu dont agree with it.
just like the pirates cant remove solo because they want more targets.
The game was sold as this. and that is how it has to stay..
I still believe combat logging should = death. And i never pirated any one ever. neither have i attacked any one who did not deserve it (wanted/hostile pp/attacked me 1st/stole my combat bonds)
And having died in pvp i would rather play the game than cheat, and i dont understand why any one who bought the game then chose to enter open would chose to combat log.
And there is mobius already. which does cater for the PvE only social people.
It could be better advertised, no doubt. But it is a valid option.
and if you are thinking of saying CQC is a mode for pvp like mobius is for PvE. Then maybe solo and group should be changed to a hollow mode that has no standing on anything at all rank or progression nor ability to explore and so on. (that would make it the same as saying CQC is for PvP)
So again i do not see the argument for pvp off flag. when all it really is is pve players saying, You cant tell me not to play the game how i want to play it, but i will tell you you cannot be a pirate.
Its hypocritical by its very nature.
Again i do believe the best fix is to have both party's pay the rebuy value. (provided the victim was not wanted. not a hostile pp player, and did not have "report crimes against me = off"
The only people it really punishes are the ones that kill the newbs. people are less likely to engage in non consensual pvp against soft targets for no reason.
pirates can demand cargo, and then victim can be pretty certain that they will be set free if they comply.
it covers a lot of the bases that needs covering. does not cause any more un needed issues.
And although it is far from perfect it is a lot better than what we have.
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Blah blah blah making ED into Facebook. The real criminals need a place to go. Right now ED is it. For now.
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You have already got what you want. And these threads come up many times because many people want something different. Frontier should just rename the game "Pirates, You Lose! All this because people blindly refuse to see the value people place on the investment they make when playing this or any game. If the mechanics fail to recognize their time invested, then they will leave or in the case of my friends, never buy the game and play.
Yeah, thats exactly what I meant.
It could even go as far as that the cargo transfer would happen automatically, amount and quality possibly based on reputation/rank/something (Like, if the trader is carrying biowaste and gold, low rank pirate would get 10% of the biowaste, where pirate lord gets 50% of the gold?) Could also be checked against the trader's rank for reduction in amounts.
Now if someone could feed this idea to the Frontier...
Ah well, that would probably need a lot of coding and testing even if it would not conflict with anything already planned, and would take a long until it could be in the game.
Let's put it this way. Many PVP proponents have stated stuff like "Blaze your own trail", and "in the real world, there are risks and loss", when the PVE'ers complain about being ganked and losing credits, time and effort.
Yes, well true. Life is harsh indeed. And IRL, no one owes you a living. Even worse, there are bad guys out there IRL who will do bad things to you that will cause you to lose time, money, and effort.
But the reverse is also true. IRL, if you do the crime, you do the time, or live your life on the lam.
If you rob someone in Detroit, you're not only gonna be wanted in Detroit. The PD is gonna be looking for you, and sharing your APB with state police.
So you're also gonna be wanted in Michigan. But then, they're also gonna be sharing your info with other states, and if the crime is serious enough, the FBI.
In short, you're gonna be wanted all over the USA.
So in the game, if you've committed a crime in a faction (Fed, Emp, Alliance), you should have that status attached to you throughout the faction.
So depending on whether it'd be a minor or major crime, you'll be penalized accordingly.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=227085&p=3480291&viewfull=1#post3480291
Though I've added a few extra suggestions.
- If you kill a Clean player/NPC in a faction's (Fed/Emp/Alliance) system, you should be wanted in all of the faction's system. Not just local.
--- But it shouldn't count in another faction, or for independent systems/ports. (ie. You're wanted in Fed, the Empire or Alliance shouldn't care. Not their problem.)
- If you accrue a bounty above a certain amount, (Eg: 10000cr), you should be denied docking rights completely by all of the faction's ports
--- You will also be attacked on scan/sight by the Popo.
--- If you're below that limit, then you may be ignored until a time limit to pay that fine has been exceeded.
--- Also, if your bounty is below that limit, you can dock, but you cannot launch again without paying the fine.
--- If you're deep in the core systems with a high bounty, you will run low on fuel or supplies eventually. So think before you act.
- Bounty amounts and duration need to be increased drastically for murder. Makes it more challenging for the killer/pirate.
--- Bounty for firing on, but not killing another player (assault) can remain the same. So piracy is not affected drastically as a play style.
--- This will incentivize and bring PvP Bounty Hunters into the mix. Both sides crave PvP action after all. Win-win.
- For all non-anarchy system, NPC police needs to be brought up to speed and volume
--- You need more cops patrolling stations, RES, and in SC
--- Cops need to be brutal. They should be the type you feared in FE2. Badasses with beam lasers that DO NOT miss.... ever.... and they swarm you 10 on 1.
PVP'ers, you can't complain, seriously. You wanted action, you can still have it. But just like the RL arguments that some of you use, it also comes with consequences.
So you can either take your aggression to anarchy systems, or to the fringes of the core systems where you are only a few jumps from anarchy. Or maybe even at the faction borders, where you can move between borders to resupply and dodge enforcement. But you'll find it a bigger challenge to PVP and murder players around Achenar or Sol.
Fair?
That's exactly the EVE approach.
It takes a very skilled and properly fit pirate to successfully attack someone in highsec space because you only have about 20 seconds before the local cops will swoop in and kill you. The vast majority of ganking is in contested systems, in lowsec, and nullsec. Nullsec is a lot of fun because pilots there are almost always the best in the game so attacking or avoiding a trap is really a complicated game.
IF ED implemented more effective policing in core systems and scaled it according to system status it would probably help a lot. Fed, Alliance, and Empire systems would have the best security. Independent systems might have security, but maybe not as effective. And player rating with regard to a system should be considered too. So I'm allied to the federation, their cops would protect me, but maybe wouldn't worry too much about someone allied to the empire. It doesn't mean people can't still fly where they want.
It takes a very skilled and properly fit pirate to successfully attack someone in highsec space because you only have about 20 seconds before the local cops will swoop in and kill you. The vast majority of ganking is in contested systems, in lowsec, and nullsec. Nullsec is a lot of fun because pilots there are almost always the best in the game so attacking or avoiding a trap is really a complicated game.
IF ED implemented more effective policing in core systems and scaled it according to system status it would probably help a lot. Fed, Alliance, and Empire systems would have the best security. Independent systems might have security, but maybe not as effective. And player rating with regard to a system should be considered too. So I'm allied to the federation, their cops would protect me, but maybe wouldn't worry too much about someone allied to the empire. It doesn't mean people can't still fly where they want.
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Very interesting idea.
I think it's important to ensure the rank disparity is well highlighted. If a certain crime has severe penalties like this, it's important the attacker know in advance. The point is to prevent random attacks on newbies by high ranked players, not to mete out random severe punishments.
Plus it wouldn't surprise me if some pilots will clear their saves to get around this restriction!
It might help, though ultimately some players thrive on violating any rule-set, nothing will stop them.yea your right you need to go back to warthunder
Piracy protocol sounds nice but it goes against the philosophy of a pirate. Pirates are who they be because they want to be free. The minute the law starts dictating anything to them--and they abide, they are no longer pirates. Pirates do what they want.
I think your idea is going in the right direction, but it further discourages PvP as a form of social content!
I'm half tempted to make a E
group which will openly engage other members in PvP with the understanding that actual ship destruction is against the group's charter.Here is another suggestion along those same lines (shameless plug):
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=222625
The fact that Frontier is looking for a solution is clear evidence that the data available to them indicates there is a problem. The problem appears to be directly related to PVP.
If you engage in PVP, you will need to do some soul searching because it is your style of game play that appears to be causing the problem.
The solution is going to be very difficult to implement because the game must change and there are very strong opinions on both sides of the problem.
Do we end up with a game where more people play together in open? Or do we have a game where the majority of players are in Mobius or solo?
Do we have the courage to do what is best for the game?
If you engage in PVP, you will need to do some soul searching because it is your style of game play that appears to be causing the problem.
The solution is going to be very difficult to implement because the game must change and there are very strong opinions on both sides of the problem.
Do we end up with a game where more people play together in open? Or do we have a game where the majority of players are in Mobius or solo?
Do we have the courage to do what is best for the game?
Real pirates also cannot dock anywhere civilized and are actively hunted down by the authorities. Those saying that implementing Sandro's suggestions will kill off piracy probably have a problem with that.
Yes. This. Pirates and murderers do what they want.
And the law will hunt them down accordingly.
All FD needs, is to implement a proper working law enforcement system in the game. Make it resemble society IRL.
And the game will take care of itself.
We don't need admins to waste time looking into complaints of griefing. They should be taken care of by the ingame police and laws.
And yet, due to constant requests for nerfs of PVP by the players, UO eventually implemented Trammel anyway (thus doubling their playerbase btw). I'm guessing Frontier will eventually implement Trammel too. In fact, even as a PVPer, I encourage it. Lets move on with our lives. ED isn't a PVP game. Those of us who want such a thing will just have to wait until someone else makes the game we want.
Pirates aren't griefers. We are playing Elite a legitimate way the developers intended. Send police after us. Send bounty hunters. Lock us out of stations! It won't stop us! WE WILL SCOURGE! YOU WILL PAY YOUR TAXES OR YOU WILL PAY IN BLOOD!
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
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Yes it is. That is what Open mode is--anything goes. PvE, PvP, PvS. Don't like it? Go to group or Solo.
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The no insurance idea is laughable. Sorry. If something like that is implemented then...
(and please, try and be a pirate for a while, you'll see we have LOTS of risk)
Trade ships cost billions of credits
All traders are required to be employed by a corporation
They are paid an hourly wage
They receive no cut of the trade profits
They have a mortgage
They have bills
They are forced to trade x number of hours a week or they will lose their trade license
All high security systems pay minimum wage to the trader
All low or no-security systems pay bonus hazard pay to the trader
To Bounty Hunters:
Pirates can seize the bounty hunter upon disabling their ship
Pirates can sell the bounty hunter to the black market or execute them
If Bounty Hunter is executed by the pirate, they lose their ship permanently
If sold into slavery, all credits are revoked and placed in care of the pirate and you are forced to perform hard labor for x number of days (actual playing time) to earn your freedom
You can't give pirates ultimate risk without providing harsh penalties to other careers. Piracy already is the poorest and most risky profession in the game. All due respect to your videos (I enjoy them immensely), but you have no idea what it is like to be a pirate.
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