Yes PVP is unfair.

[Muetdhiver]

First : I think taking the relative levels and such into account is a bad idea and overly complicated.

Ganking will be happening anyway, all you can do is making it costly enough* that few people engage in it.
*as in credit cost and game conséquences , such as

Second : We need a law and order update.

• Higher bounties for murder, escalating with repeated offenses. Both for PC and NPC's
• Escalation of Bounty juridiction* : if your bounties in minor faction controled by a power reach some threshold, the Bounty juridiction is now said power territory. Same with major factions, with a higher threshold. This means that players might get wanted in the whole federation, or in all antal territory, and so one. One the other hand it makes uncontrolled / independant systems perfect for piracy. Last step : galactic Bounty, i.e. everyone in the civilized space wants you dead. right now. (but you'll still be fine in anarchy systems (for police, Bounty hunters don't give a damn about juridiction .
• Police reponse proportional to 1) security level (for local response), 2) juridiction (you might be in low sec federation system, but if you are wanted by the whole federation, the FBI special team is still coming, maybe slower, but it'll get there, and they will not be equiped with 3 ragtag vipers ).
• NPC Bounty hunters ignore juridiction, they are solely based on the highest bounty. After a team is dispatched for said Bounty, there is some cooldown period before an other NPC team tries to take you down.
• In the case of clean CMDR murder in non-anarchy, add part/all of the victim rebuy as a Bounty in the appropriate juridiction. That will ensure that multiple murders of clean CMDR will result in being wanted in large area of space rather quickly, and will tone down recidivist gankers fast. (or allow them to RP being hunted down without respite by overwhelming forces).
• Docking priviledge may get revoked if your Bounty is too high. And yeah, that means that you might reach the point where all empire station refuse to have anything to do with you and just call the cops. Though life for though guys is fair I guess

*Also valid for the legacy fine. So, repeated offenders might end up facing mighty rebuys (at galactic Bounty level, make it that you pay no matter where you respawn, even in anarchy).

 

[wstephenson]

Excellent posts by fellow commanders Genar-Hofoen and wstephenson. I think during DDF discussions there's lot of meat there, especially regarding driving sociopaths out of legal space. Of course there's lot of grey areas and balancing will take time, but I am very sure this will result with what majority of players want - more interesting PvP engagement with consequences.

So I suggest Sandro to take his idea as foundation and work upon that, taking all interesting cases into account.

Thanks. What my suggestion above for a player-combat-only PF rank implies is, coupled with the ability to track (player) criminals across systems (whenever they are in Open..), is that player bounty hunters will be highly motivated to track down and destroy murderers. This way the murderers get a PvP challenge, and the BHs responsible for bringing them down get the hardest possible combat ranking as a reward. Delaying the insurance rebuy for criminal commanders is a nice-to-have.

I don't particularly care about murderers' friends killing them for Cr exploits at this point, as income inflation as meant that anyone putting time into the game has enough money to do most things.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Time to get draconian on these PvP killer types...


You kill another player who is not wanted:

• You pay the 95% insurance cost of the now dead player
• You pay 100% of the cargo value (if any was on board) of the dead player
• Your insurance claim value is raised by 1% for the next month/30 days - increases by 1% per kill and can go over 100%
• If the now dead player was on a mission the faction(s) who had hired the pilot now drop their rep towards the killer by one level - same from the major factions too
• Factions who's missions where affected add the value of the mission to the bounty placed on the killer
• Increased attention from the police/naval forces in lawful systems
• Increased attention from NPC Pirates and bounty hunter's in all systems. Pirates in anarchy systems would be especially interested making the whole of space dangerous
• Bounties can remain the same

You want to be the bad boy, then be prepared to get spanked.

After all, this is Elite Dangerous as the PvP players are so keen to point out at every chance.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You want to be the bad boy, then be prepared to get spanked.

as a carrot tho, i would also suggest adding in lawless stations, and indeed it is at lawless stations (and black markets) where you take the missions to kill civies/traders/police etc... and this could even have its own ranking

these missions should not be clear as day on the bulletin board. I can just imagine going to sainsburys, doing the weekly shop and looking on their notice board.

for sale labrador puppies £300
plumber .. no job to big or small..... call 01223 234212
wanted.... climbing frame.
wanted.. assassin to kill police outside cambridge police station call Dave for more details 01223 494567

I just do not see it happening

 

[LordZoltan]

A lot of very interesting posts in here guys 'n gals

Just so I understand - does any of this conversation, or do any of the people here have a desire to, seek to create a punishment for the stuff like the continuing unsolicited PvPing (if you can call it that - a Cutter blowing up a near defenceless explorer Asp or whatever) happening out in the Pleiades?

Is the feeling that since it's all lawless anyway, then tough doo-doo?

O7

 

[Flea King]

Hello Commanders!

Usual caveat: no guarantee, no ETA! This is just another thought experiment.

A quick question regarding player-versus-player (not AI) in open:

Currently there is no real difference between crime against AI and crime against humans.

Do folk think that additional, relatively severe in-game penalties for illegal ship destruction where there was a large disparity between rank/power of murderer to victim would be a worthwhile thing?

It's only as worth while as the gaming environment you folks wish to encourage. If you're committed to developing a cut-throat game mode which caters strongly for the aggressor, then no, it's not worthwhile.

However, if you wish to, as you say, reconcile the divide between PvP & PvE then it would be a step. A small one and certainly not the only one required, but a step in the right direction.

Ultimately, you folks are responsible, and have the power, to encourage, discourage, reward and penalize behaviours within your game system. Simply making the tools is not enough. You and yours are also the game's masters, this is your house. There's a fair body of quality papers and at least two sound journals relating to game studies and design up and running at the moment. I realise folks are busy and said sources would reward those willing to dig through them (and sadly, I do mean dig. A large shovel is required due to the lack of consistency at this time). Beyond this, a casually swotting up on behavioural psyschology, especially the study of contingencies, will help turn quality technical systems into rewarding game systems.

(And heck, since you're all sitting around with so much time, reading and sipping pricey coffees, why not cuddly up to a copy of The Lucifer Effect, and compare the notes on the Stanford Prison Experiment, the case study of the Abu Ghraib’s Abuses and be amused/horrified by the similarities between them and the game system you're currently developing as Open Mode.)

Spoiler

Also, please consider empowering players with more information, and options to share information, with regards to system traffic and conflict activity and commander criminal history (rap sheet, if you will). As you are fully aware, the disparity between a combat focused (and combat fitted mulitpurpose ship) compared to the majority of trade ships is huge. While such steps won't directly prevent conflict between disparitly strengthed forces it can serve to empower those not looking to fight, by allowing them to better plan and assess the galaxy they travel within.

I hope we can accept that a Vulture versus a T7 is a pretty uneven fight, as it should be. And by allowing the trader the option to learn more about his attacker and to check and assess the combat activitiy in the system/s they travel through, they will be better placed to learn and adapt. It's another tool in the toolbelt to help those wishing to engage with your game system in a manner that isn't focused on reflexes and adrenaline.

 

[NeilF]

Hello Commanders!

Usual caveat: no guarantee, no ETA! This is just another thought experiment.

A quick question regarding player-versus-player (not AI) in open:

Currently there is no real difference between crime against AI and crime against humans.

Do folk think that additional, relatively severe in-game penalties for illegal ship destruction where there was a large disparity between rank/power of murderer to victim would be a worthwhile thing?

As an example suggestion: a high combat rank player in a combat capable ship boils a low combat rank player in a trade vessel. In addition to a bounty, the murderer is unable to dock at high security systems and suffers an increased insurance premium excess for an amount of time.

Continued offences of this nature increase and prolong the punitive measures.

Would a system like this help reconcile the two factions of the PVP and PVE, or would it not really address the issue?

Thoughts?

Piracy needs better mechanics to promote non-destruction of other CMDRs. Allow terms to be predefined/entered and given to the oppponent at a press of a key. Allow victims to pay up more easily (eg: a submission/white flag key/drop cargo key). If a CMDR kills another CMDR serious penalties should be dished out (in a non-anarchy system). Allow the game to also self police to a logical degree. ie: Increase security patrols/response times in the instance around players deserving it.

Piracy should be more rewarding with progression/success resulting in access to better black markets and better prices for stolen goods.

It's also clear PvP is enjoyed by many CMDRs, and (unfortunately) their only avenue typically is to find any CMDR they can and attack them. So give them more avenues for it. ie: Zones specifically put aside for it. ie: Some TV endorsed areas in empty space, an asteroid field, and maybe even a dead station/platform. Have the TV companies help cover rebuy costs, and reward kills (eg: Credit Notes)... Ideally we should have PvP related missions to attack/defend areas/convoys/capital ships, so actively allow CMDRs to undertake "legal" PvP!


In short, Crime and Punishement needs to help stop/reduce mindless CMDR destruction by harsh penalties. The game should promote/reward logical Piracy (steeling cargo by force, not mindless destruction of other CMDRs). And the game should offer legal/logical PvP combat mechanics/areas.

How the game treats non-Pilots Federation murder (ie: NPCs) could be a far more laid back affair IMHO.

Once the environment is giving CMDRs a more even handed environment to play in, where mindless CMDR destruction is not ignored, then also penalise Combat Logging. eg: Repeated use of it, results in warnings and enforced, increasing periods in SOLO.

TBH, I think it's bizarre we're this far into the game, and things are only in the knocking-ideas-around phase seemingly with a half committed stance to resolving the clear problems

 

[OamodSias]

Time to get draconian on these PvP killer types...


You kill another player who is not wanted:

• You pay the 95% insurance cost of the now dead player
• You pay 100% of the cargo value (if any was on board) of the dead player
• Your insurance claim value is raised by 1% for the next month/30 days - increases by 1% per kill and can go over 100%
• If the now dead player was on a mission the faction(s) who had hired the pilot now drop their rep towards the killer by one level - same from the major factions too
• Factions who's missions where affected add the value of the mission to the bounty placed on the killer
• Increased attention from the police/naval forces in lawful systems
• Increased attention from NPC Pirates and bounty hunter's in all systems. Pirates in anarchy systems would be especially interested making the whole of space dangerous
• Bounties can remain the same

You want to be the bad boy, then be prepared to get spanked.

After all, this is Elite Dangerous as the PvP players are so keen to point out at every chance.

My thoughts to this:

1 & 2. No, too harsh. Without breaking immersion, how would the aggrieved party (the victim) claim damages against their attacker? What incentive is there for the killer/pirate if they run out of money after only a few kills? Imagine they destroy a T9 with 500t of Pain... they could bankrupt themselves in a single kill, when all they wanted was 50t of Pain. This is horribly imbalanced and will drive people away from this type of PvP entirely, IMHO - ultimately resulting in the death of the pirate career,
3. No. Just, remove insurance entirely for criminals. So when you die, you keep what money you have but you end up back in your next ship, or sidey if you don't have another,
4. For every non-Wanted player killed, all faction reputation will decrease (except for where lore applicable (such as a pirate faction, or similar)) ,
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. I would increase them slightly, and make them universal.

 

[wstephenson]

as a carrot tho, i would also suggest adding in lawless stations, and indeed it is at lawless stations (and black markets) where you take the missions to kill civies/traders/police etc... and this could even have its own ranking

these missions should not be clear as day on the bulletin board. I can just imagine going to sainsburys, doing the weekly shop and looking on their notice board.

for sale labrador puppies £300
plumber .. no job to big or small..... call 01223 234212
wanted.... climbing frame.
wanted.. assassin to kill police outside cambridge police station call Dave for more details 01223 494567

I just do not see it happening

I agree that it's gamey, but as a high level abstraction of "all the station's networks with all their nooks and crannies" it's sufficient.

Lawless stations, black markets, outfitting shops that only deal with bad boys; these would all be great to create a 'shadow economy' and offer more stimulating criminal gameplay (as a distraction from ganking noobs), but I appreciate that it would be very hard at this point in the production to provide these; to rejig how stations are created by the game and how services are affected by player status. Let's hope Sandro can make some meaningful changes by tweaking the game logic /before/ any huge change to Stellar Forge/BGS to allow dynamic human features in the galaxy or deep UI changes are needed.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

A lot of very interesting posts in here guys 'n gals

Just so I understand - does any of this conversation, or do any of the people here have a desire to, seek to create a punishment for the stuff like the continuing unsolicited PvPing (if you can call it that - a Cutter blowing up a near defenceless explorer Asp or whatever) happening out in the Pleiades?

Is the feeling that since it's all lawless anyway, then tough doo-doo?

O7

even if legally there was no repercussion, there are other ways. All pilots federation members get insurance. I know if i was the insurance company I would not be happy continually paying out because (insert random CMDR name here) kept blowing ships up, therefore even if it was in lawless space, a wing of npc attack ships could go after ganker players with the warning (1st encounters/frontier players will remember this) "you really should not have messed with CMDR X!"


the wing would need to consist of a couple of fast ships and then at least 1 heavy hitter.... courtesy of the insurance company.

if nothing else it would stop players from hanging around too long, and would keep them on their toes, so for instance they could not sit on top of the barnacles indefinitely

 

[MJC]

Dear Sandro,

Just seems to me that ED is discouraging pvp more and more instead of sorting out instancing and combat logging.

Look at this scenario: I am lowly "Expert" pvp-er (since beta) with more that 1000 human kills (shame you removed the counter in gamma)

When in my silent DBS I kill one of those "Elite" npc-hunter Cmdr's in their Anacondas do I get extra points towards my Elite status?

Should all pvp-ers just reset save and stay in sidewinders to give the PVE crowd a level playing field?

In this game pilots ranking has nothing to do with PVP skill. FD devs have very little expirience of pvp and I invite you to join one of our hunting wings to see what this is all about.
To count the number of combat logs, unseen wingman and unseen members of other wings, failed interdictions

This is what you should be focusing on, but I get it we are 1% of your target group and who cares

 

[OamodSias]

even if legally there was no repercussion, there are other ways. All pilots federation members get insurance. I know if i was the insurance company I would not be happy continually paying out because (insert random CMDR name here) kept blowing ships up, therefore even if it was in lawless space, a wing of npc attack ships could go after ganker players with the warning (1st encounters/frontier players will remember this) "you really should not have messed with CMDR X!"


the wing would need to consist of a couple of fast ships and then at least 1 heavy hitter.... courtesy of the insurance company.

if nothing else it would stop players from hanging around too long, and would keep them on their toes, so for instance they could not sit on top of the barnacles indefinitely

Ooo, I like that; but the wing needs to consist of enough or be strong enough NPC's to counter large/strong threats. For example, CMDR Griefer might have slaughtered 300 innocent British Tea haulers because "tea sucks" but right now he's currently farting around with 3 of his mates. Sending a rather weak Wing after him would likely see the Wing get nuked; but if the NPC's were of a "Elite: Elite" status (think of the guards protecting towns in MMO's, only a large number of players can kill them) then... well, we'd either have one dead Cmdr, or 4.

 

[Jukelo]

Time to get draconian on these PvP killer types...


You kill another player who is not wanted:

• You pay the 95% insurance cost of the now dead player
• You pay 100% of the cargo value (if any was on board) of the dead player
• Your insurance claim value is raised by 1% for the next month/30 days - increases by 1% per kill and can go over 100%
• If the now dead player was on a mission the faction(s) who had hired the pilot now drop their rep towards the killer by one level - same from the major factions too
• Factions who's missions where affected add the value of the mission to the bounty placed on the killer
• Increased attention from the police/naval forces in lawful systems
• Increased attention from NPC Pirates and bounty hunter's in all systems. Pirates in anarchy systems would be especially interested making the whole of space dangerous
• Bounties can remain the same

You want to be the bad boy, then be prepared to get spanked.

After all, this is Elite Dangerous as the PvP players are so keen to point out at every chance.

Why not remove the game from their account while you're at it? And how would you reconcille those 'suggestions' (at this point I'd say you're just trying to flamebait rather than make genuine suggestions) with the fact the game asks players to kill unwanted targets all the time?

I'm with Genar-Hofoen though, both regarding the piracy declaration feature and the fact it's flabbergasting that Sandro would only now be maybe considering touching on one of the advertised professions and rebalancing the crime and punishment system.

Now if only we could also fix both combat logging and menu-logging...

 

[wstephenson]

When in my silent DBS I kill one of those "Elite" npc-hunter Cmdr's in their Anacondas do I get extra points towards my Elite status?

Depends if they were wanted or not. A changelog a very long time ago mentioned removing awarding Combat ranking points for murder.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

To count the number of combat logs, unseen wingman and unseen members of other wings, failed interdictions

combat logging is cheating and should be dealt with... as should any other cheats of which there are plenty.... but that is separate from the notion of no consequences for ganking. indeed, if players feel there is justice in the ED universe and are confident that a potential ganker will get their cummupence, they may be less likely to CL.

obviously this wont be the case for the players who are happy to use it as a cheat (players who start a fight and then log are the worst of the worst imo) but it may be the case for the trader who is sick of being interdicted and blown up for lolz who is now CLing as a matter of course against legitimate pirates.

i would love for the networking to improve. I am lucky, i have not had any issues for months playing with my wing of mates, but it sucks for those who have.

 

[Robert Maynard]

1 & 2. No, too harsh. Without breaking immersion, how would the aggrieved party (the victim) claim damages against their attacker?

Through the Pilots' Federation - who provide insurance cover for all members - it could simply be deducted from the player's account at their next rebuy screen. The level of the damages would be up for debate though....

 

[Robert Maynard]

Look at this scenario: I am lowly "Expert" pvp-er (since beta) with more that 1000 human kills (shame you removed the counter in gamma)

You raise a good point - the player's kill counts of both players and NPCs could be compared in some way to spot a penchant for attacking players, rather than just Combat Rank alone.

 

[OamodSias]

Through the Pilots' Federation - who provide insurance cover for all members - it could simply be deducted from the player's account at their next rebuy screen. The level of the damages would be up for debate though....

I think it's laughable that an organisation 1,286 years from now would allow terrorists to remain as part of their organisation, when organisations today revoke their memberships with immediate effect.

*hint hint*

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think it's laughable that an organisation 1,286 years from now would allow terrorists to remain as part of their organisation, when organisations today revoke their memberships with immediate effect.

*hint hint*

Current motor insurance companies quite often have to handle both sides of insurance claims - they do not necessarily refuse to re-insure the person who caused the incident (although they might bump up their premium / excess somewhat).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I think it's laughable that an organisation 1,286 years from now would allow terrorists to remain as part of their organisation, when organisations today revoke their memberships with immediate effect.

*hint hint*

hey, i was reading this morning that I can no longer even travel to the US without getting the rubber glove "interview" treatment if i have travelled to Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria in the last 4 years. Blooming shocking really and it will only get worse........... George Orwell would be giving us a massive "I told you so" were he alive.

but in that vein then, you are correct!. We need more consequences in ED for our actions, at least within the 3 major players.

Current motor insurance companies quite often have to handle both sides of insurance claims - they do not necessarily refuse to re-insure the person who caused the incident (although they might bump up their premium / excess somewhat).

for some reason now i am having visions of driving along and getting attacked by 3 guys with guns, saying I have cost "sheila's wheels insurance company too much money, now its time to die!"

i need another coffee i think.