Yes PVP is unfair.

[Robert Maynard]

Also, shouldn't this be merged with the monsterthread? And subsequently burned and destroyed? We've seen the same arguments from both sides over and over and over and over again.

When we merged threads together, we ended up with conversations that became a mish-mash of posts, making it more difficult to follow the discussion.

Additionally, merging larger threads together caused a strain on our forums database when merging all of the posts into a one thread.

For these reasons, we tend not to merge threads - although if a rash of duplicate threads appears then most will be closed and redirected as necessary.

 

[DarkWalker]

While the individual gains of an escorted trader would be lower per trip, the risk of destruction would also be reduced. Less loss is a form of net gain in this context - it can take a lone trader c.20 trips to recoup a total loss.

Yep, if you are rationally contemplating the probabilities, that is true.

People often aren't rational, though. And particularly so when it comes to dealing with probabilities. People tend to behave as if the chance is either far greater than it really is or as if it will never happen to them. And this happens even to those that do know the actual chances; I've spent a year in college studying more about probabilities than most people will see in their whole lifes, before that I used to model real world probabilities to develop homebrew rules for my RPG campaigns, and even then I don't take real world risks even when the odds are stacked in my favor.

And that is before you even consider the logistical issues with requiring escorts in a game where travel takes time. You can't assume that you will find willing and trustable escorts everywhere you go, so the smart move to avoid downtime is to make sure you can handle everything by yourself if needed, which in turn reduces the need to look for escorts in the first place.

So, again, I don't have anything against adding some optional profit sharing mechanism that allows merchants to pay for escorts. I just don't think it will be used nearly often enough to make a difference.

---

Hence my post 20 pages ago that Elite literally just needs to copy/paste Eve's sec status system. It will make eeeeveryone happy bc it WORKS. So let's not be allergic to mechanics that have already been pioneered and proven by others.

Nope, it doesn't really work. EVE still has lots of incidents where players are attacked in high sec. Worse, it discriminates against players that dislike PvP, keeping them penned in a tiny part of the game universe.

Unless you are the kind of PvPer that system was create to promote; then, of course, the system will be great for you, at the cost of making the game worse for many other players.

EVE itself might be suffering with it, as according to the devs about half the players that purchase a copy leave within the first month.

---

Open has it's risks, but it's not by any means filled with the hoard of marauding psychopaths some people make it out to be.

It doesn't need to. For many, the mere fact that a potentially existing "marauding psychopath" could target them, and the game/Frontier would do nothing to prevent it, is already cause enough to leave Open and go play somewhere else. Don't forget that, while some find the chance of unexpected player attacks thrilling, others find it merely stressful and bothersome.

 

[rckstr]

I did not read through all the posts after Sandro mentioned the current thoughts about pvp.

First i'd like to say that i think it is a bad idea to tie the punishment for a crime to a cmdr's rank. This change would treat people differently for the same crime. I think it is a good example we can use from the real world. No matter who you are, if you do this or that particular bad thing, you should receive the same punishment like everybody else.
Next thing would be that people could start keeping their rank as low as possible for as long as possible. Higher ranks should be something you want to reach, not something you want to avoid.

How would this apply to powerplay? The same rules? Then you can not oppose a faction by shooting down their fortifiers. The rules don't apply? Then there are still plenty low ranked people who get shot without a real help.
What about player submitted or adopted minor factions? How does the rule apply if one playergroup wants to take revenge for a fallen comrade- All have high ranks and the opposition has low ranks. Although the low ranked group started it, the higher ranked group will be punished harder.

The next step are those that do not care about the progress and money they made to this day. Those that are the reason for such a change would "simply" clear their save or buy a second account (when it's on sale). They didn't loose their skill because of that, but they will be treated differently. And getting into a viper or even vulture won't take too long if your friends help you out.

Another thing would be the abuse of such implementation. Get a sidewinder, bump into some rocks to loose health and fly in the line of fire of some innocent cmdr. This would be pretty annoying already today, i don't want to imagine what it would be with such changes.

Tie the punishment to the crime committed.

Add a real reputation system. Currently you can wipe all your bounty's by killing yourself in a sidewinder. No matter what you did before that, you are clean now. With a real reputation system a player who committed a number of crimes to people and NPC's could be marked as a criminal or murderer in that system, even if he currently has no bounty. Doing crimes as a wing would increase the duration of being marked.
People marked as murderer could still gain docking permit- a station is huge, maybe there is some "friend" of them working at the docking controll. But in turn they would be a kill on sight target in that system, authorities would not help them but they would still be allowed to defend themselves without gaining further bad reputation.
If you want to increase the punishment then those criminals could get slightly increased insurance and outfitting costs like suggested but also would have a certain radius where their reputation follows. Committing even more crimes would extend the radius, committing crimes near the radius would add another radius with bad reputation and they start to build up a "bad rep bubble".

Add some multiplayer mechanics. People that get attacked could be sending out a distress call and bounty hunters could wake into that call to assist. Extend this feature so that waking in via such a call would make you "allied" to the person in need and your hardpoints would not fire when the person is in your line of fire. Hitting an allied accidentally with a projectile could still be possible but you won't be able to pull the trigger. Untargeting and attacking a person in the need of your help would be punished with a higher "bad rep" and bounty. The threshold needed to be marked as criminal would be smaller if you betray others.

Add a good use to the interdiction mini game (first fix it). People with a good rep that get interdicted would send out a help signal to the authorities in that system. The longer you can hold up the interdiction, the earlier security forces will be there after the interdiction because they had more time to arrive. Depending on the rep of both players security forces might react quicker or slower in general but could also vary in ship types and number.

Extend the bounty board in stations. If someone marked as a criminal gets scanned somewhere close to his bad rep bubble they could be highlighted there with an accurate location.
Extend that mechanic so that bounty hunters could get a notification in the top left message board.
Add a "defend" flag to the player menu. People with that flag enabled and a positive rep could get auto winged to counter criminal wings easier.

Now get all crazy and add a heat map to the galaxy map where crimes are highlighted in red and systems without incidents highlighted as green.

Edit: Inspired by the hateful eight. You can either kill someone marked as criminal/ murderer or shoot out his drives/ powerplant and wait until the authorities arrive. You will obviously not get rewarded with credits for that as long as the target had no bounty, but the criminal would have to pay the (doubled) amount of collected bountys in the past few days/ weeks in that system.

A bad rep would decrease over time but is tied to ingame minutes/ hours while in movement. This would prevent that players stay docked somewhere while they do other stuff just to let the timer run out.

 

[DaveB]

Also, shouldn't this be merged with the monsterthread? And subsequently burned and destroyed? We've seen the same arguments from both sides over and over and over and over again.

When we merged threads together, we ended up with conversations that became a mish-mash of posts, making it more difficult to follow the discussion.

Additionally, merging larger threads together caused a strain on our forums database when merging all of the posts into a one thread.

For these reasons, we tend not to merge threads - although if a rash of duplicate threads appears then most will be closed and redirected as necessary.

Plus, it's threads like this that are at least initially talking about something related but quite different from the megathread that make me very glad I"m not a mod.

It must get up the mods collective nose when so many threads with otherwise intelligent discussions just brush the edge of the maelstrom, and down they go.....

 

[Pluvialis]

I genuinely don't think there's a solution to this issue that doesn't involve shutting down either Open mode or Solo/Group mode. The game needs to make its mind up what it wants to be.

I've said this elsewhere, but if FDev ask how I feel about the issue I'll say it again. Sorry if I'm being repetitive. But I loved FE2 and FFE, and I waited patiently for a sequel to those games. This isn't it. Combat wasn't ever something I was particularly interested in, and it isn't in ED either. I don't say there should be none, but for me combat will always be a nuisance, and a distraction from the game I want to play.

That makes me a carebear, I'm told - but the thing is, that doesn't matter to me. Whatever you want to call it, I just don't find it fun to blow up or be blown up by other players. So I don't do the former and I try to avoid the latter.

You are into combat, though, and that's fine. But the thing is, I think what we really want, you and I, are different games.

I want a game that offers detailed character creation, realistic flight physics, a chance to carve out a story as a space truck driver. I want to deal with space truck driver problems, like finding jobs, keeping the ship in good repair, learning to navigate using proper orbital mechanics, dealing with agents, fixers and middlemen, avoiding legal and political troubles, and so on. I want combat to be the rare last resort I'd expect it to be if that were my life.

You want a game that maximises the excitement and playability of the combat model, and lets you measure your skill against other players. I get that, and fully respect it. It's just not my game.

I signed up for ED before Offlinegate, when I thought true, offline single-player would be possible. The truth is, as selfish as it may be, I just don't care about Open mode because I never wanted to play in it. On the other hand, I never wanted to impact it in any way either: I influence your galaxy because I have no choice, not because I want to undermine some Power or other, or contribute to a CG, without taking any risk. I don't care about Powers and I don't care about CGs. They aren't what Elite games were ever about.

So, FDev, if you want my solution to the problem, it's this: give me First Encounters II (Second Encounters?). Put ED's visuals and audio over the top of FFE's gameplay, and sell it to me, and I'll give you money to go play in my own private galaxy, and the Open players can get on and do their thing without me messing up their shared world.

 

[DaveB]

<snip>

And then there's folks like me who want both of those things, among others, at different times but in the same galaxy without me having to grind 3 or 4 characters separately. Given the choice, I'd stick with the status quo.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

• Remove ship scans from supercruise so that players cant tell if they are attacking a combat-conda from a trade-conda.
• Quick (NPC Viper System Authority?) Response to attacked ships. (Variable. Sometimes quick, sometimes longer.. )
• Make insurance null and void on ships that attack in PVP. (and are reported.. say for 24 hours).

I know this *seems* like nerfs to PVP, but if the sides are balanced then more people might participate..

These points, hell no.

The ship scans are the only way I can distinguish trader from bounty hunter. I would probably stop pirating if I couldn't actually consistently find targets.

NPC authority does not work directly. The difference between low-med-high security is response time, mainly - it's not dangerous to go into high-security systems as a pirate, but there's no reason to, as the second you get cargo, the police arrive. Sure, they can't kill you if you fight back, but you can't stay to collect that cargo, so that zone becomes a no-go.

Insurance null and void? So you're saying that if I try to engage in piracy, a perfectly legitimate role, I can lose 20x as much as an equivalent bounty hunter? No.

Sorry to bring these points down so hard, but these just aren't good points. If we followed Sandro's suggestion in that murders would lose you permission to dock at high-sec systems and change your insurance coverage slightly, with increasing penalty with the more murder you commit, the game would improve by a lot.

 

[Ornee Shaula]

Considering this game is called Elite: Dangerous, why are people crying about being put in danger, Sandro, really sorry but if this is the direction this game is going and the lead dev is basically pandering to the howls of the plebiscite mob saying we don't want Elite players making the game dangerous, then I think it's time for me to take my money back to CCP and Eve online, it's sad enough that after the last round of nerfs I haven't even been able to bring myself to log in let alone actually fly these overnerfed and gimped ships, the hard work and grinding I put into making credits to buy a ship that was a premium combat vessel has now been made naught by the abilty of a >1m credits hull tanked Viper 4 to have how many armor hit points...
You aren't winning any friends in the PvP community and what you must be aware of is all these changes that carebears want will be turned against you by the griefer culture that will take all your ideas and adapt them to be used against you, like we keep doing with every set of nerf's and changes.
Instead of telling you all the things that will happen to your clever changes I think I'll stop buying ship skins, kick myself about buying Horizons, where a great game was taken apart and made painful, I think I'll just log back into the Eve accounts I just reactivated and get down with some real space killing in a community that understands the game is boring without explosions

 

[Jockey79]

Considering this game is called Elite: Dangerous, ...

Stopped reading there.

/sigh.

Despite there is an in game lore reason for the name of the game, you want to equate the name with the game play, ok then. Lets do it.

You know what the game is NOT called?

Elite:

• PvP Edition
• Griefer Edition
• Grounded sulking 12 year old tantrum edition
• PvE players not welcome edition
• Pew Pew
• No consequences Edition
• EVE in cockpits
• Seal Clubbing Edition

These are just some of the things the game IS NOT CALLED.

Open is for everyone, not just you and other PvP'ers.
And with the moaning some of you do about lack of targets, perhaps changes that bring more people to open would actually improve the game for you.

The game lore is;

Formed in 2805 after the great surge in private ownership of smaller starships, the Pilots Federation soon found a role as a conduit for trade route information exchange between trusted pilots and provided the infrastructure for a mutual protection scheme against the rising scourge of interstellar pirates.
Planet-siders began to distrust the generally itinerant nature of starship captains, who always seemed willing and able to jump to a new system before the law caught up with them. The Pilots Federation’s zero tolerance policy of dishonourable behaviour amongst its members is enforced by a system of bounties automatically placed on the heads of transgressors.
This built a galaxy-wide respect for the badge, which then started to be worn with pride by members. However, the organization’s official adoption of the 9-level ‘kill tally’ ranking system (Harmless through to the coveted Elite status) ensured the Pilots Federation retained a level of blood-thirsty notoriety.
Over the centuries the Pilots Federation has remained secretive in nature and neutral in conflicts, and has grown into one of the dominant financial superpowers of the galaxy through its GalNet data network. Originally a star chart, ship data and bounty management system, GalNet has evolved into an effective galactic infrastructure and content monopoly on news, market pricing and communication systems. This has not been without controversy, with periodic claims of data hoarding and abuse of its position.
It’s not surprising that an organization founded on status, and with such influence and power, has several cliques (The Dark Wheel being the most infamous). Or that those of Elite rank have further exploited their status and the incredible demand for their services, by forming an organization within an organization; the Elite Pilots Federation.
Relentless, increasingly well organized piracy and the need to maintain their reputation and influence as the best of the best caused the Elite Pilots Federation to start opening its membership to candidates from the Deadly rank who were able to pass a rigorous test and then, as demand continued to soar, to those from the Dangerous rank.

 

[DaveB]

Considering this game is called Elite: Dangerous, why are people crying about being put in danger, Sandro, really sorry but if this is the direction this game is going and the lead dev is basically pandering to the howls of the plebiscite mob saying we don't want Elite players making the game dangerous, then I think it's time for me to take my money back to CCP and Eve online, it's sad enough that after the last round of nerfs I haven't even been able to bring myself to log in let alone actually fly these overnerfed and gimped ships, the hard work and grinding I put into making credits to buy a ship that was a premium combat vessel has now been made naught by the abilty of a >1m credits hull tanked Viper 4 to have how many armor hit points...
You aren't winning any friends in the PvP community and what you must be aware of is all these changes that carebears want will be turned against you by the griefer culture that will take all your ideas and adapt them to be used against you, like we keep doing with every set of nerf's and changes.
Instead of telling you all the things that will happen to your clever changes I think I'll stop buying ship skins, kick myself about buying Horizons, where a great game was taken apart and made painful, I think I'll just log back into the Eve accounts I just reactivated and get down with some real space killing in a community that understands the game is boring without explosions

You're missing the point. First the "Dangerous" in the title is a reference to the rank, not implying that playing ED should be dangerous all the time. Second, the actual topic of this thread (no matter how much the open/solo meta-warriors try to make it about that) is about how the type of PvP encouraged in Elite can be promoted and protected while still responding appropriately to players who are just jerks.

I like to PvP from time to time so I'm part of the PvP community, I just restrict my PvP time to when I'm in the mood. ED lets me do that and yet not have to quit playing when I'm not. So don't put out that phoney "alienate the PvP market" argument. The "PvP community" is as diverse as "the gaming community". You don't like it. We get that. One heck of a first post there, buddy. Personally If you do decide to leave the game I'll miss you even though I haven't met you yet. Don't be too surprised if others - including active ED PvPers - respond more along the lines of "Don't let the airlock door hit you... "

As for your complaints about the changing mechanics I'll respond with a phrase I heard a lot during my own Eve playing days. "Adapt or die."

Quite frankly if your only reason to play ED is to blow up other players, and that's all you want to do, Eve may be a better fit for you. I hope you enjoy making your explosions over there. We'll be playing ED over here.

 

[StuF]

Considering this game is called Elite: Dangerous, why are people crying about being put in danger, Sandro, really sorry but if this is the direction this game is going and the lead dev is basically pandering to the howls of the plebiscite mob saying we don't want Elite players making the game dangerous, then I think it's time for me to take my money back to CCP and Eve online, it's sad enough that after the last round of nerfs I haven't even been able to bring myself to log in let alone actually fly these overnerfed and gimped ships, the hard work and grinding I put into making credits to buy a ship that was a premium combat vessel has now been made naught by the abilty of a >1m credits hull tanked Viper 4 to have how many armor hit points...
You aren't winning any friends in the PvP community and what you must be aware of is all these changes that carebears want will be turned against you by the griefer culture that will take all your ideas and adapt them to be used against you, like we keep doing with every set of nerf's and changes.
Instead of telling you all the things that will happen to your clever changes I think I'll stop buying ship skins, kick myself about buying Horizons, where a great game was taken apart and made painful, I think I'll just log back into the Eve accounts I just reactivated and get down with some real space killing in a community that understands the game is boring without explosions

Wow - I nearly got a fully house of Elite whiner bingo!

Crying - tick
It's Dangerous - tick
Nerf - tick
Tanked- tick
Carebear - tick
Eve - tick
Griefer- tick
Boring - tick

But you missed out on "Immersive" and "SC" among others so not quite a full house

 

[Jockey79]

Wow - I nearly got a fully house of Elite whiner bingo!

Crying - tick
It's Dangerous - tick
Nerf - tick
Tanked- tick
Carebear - tick
Eve - tick
Griefer- tick
Boring - tick

But you missed out on "Immersive" and "SC" among others so not quite a full house

You just gave me an idea.....

I'm supposed to be going to bed, damn it!

Edit;

Darn, so close !!
My score card;



If anyone wants the website link, PM me - there were 9 designed at random, I used the first one.
We need some proper rules though for a full thread.

Will take that to the off topic link in my Sig though, hammer out some proper rules for ED Bingo
(also will put link to the prints there as well )

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Wow - I nearly got a fully house of Elite whiner bingo!

Crying - tick
It's Dangerous - tick
Nerf - tick
Tanked- tick
Carebear - tick
Eve - tick
Griefer- tick
Boring - tick

But you missed out on "Immersive" and "SC" among others so not quite a full house

Isnt EVE WOW in space. Well, you cant play them all. I did try EVE but when my spaceship started to level I jumped of, or was it leveling? It was at least grinding from the start. Maybe I should have given it more time. But time is precious when gaming. We all have our favorites. E.D is one of mine. Tick

 

[Ornee Shaula]

Blowing things up in ED is the only thing to do that is interactive gameplay, everything else is just solo play waving at each other as you pass, Eve has a market and economy that matters to gameplay, the resources you gather make your ships, that makes regular players and industrialists matter to the PvP community, they are needed to make the ships the combat pilots fly and are therefore protected for that reason and wars between player groups are about resources available, so I agree with you that this isn't Eve in a cockpit not even close. But that is the direction the devs should be taking instead of reworking and fixing something that isn't broken. It's not combat mechanics that are broken, it's the fact that traders have no relevance to anyone but their own wallet and if those guys don't want to be shot at by players then the solo option is there. Adapt or die is what the Smiling Dog Crew do, we aren't about just killing other players but we are the top dog org of PvPers in this game and we understand gaming and gaming mechanics and the general consensus in this community of Elite players is that the lack of thought put into nerfing us from killing anything is plain discriminatory towards us as a group and because of a small group of chest beating victims, most of whom aren't even being shot at by us. We posted about Merope and Maia ops and complaints were flowing like a river of tears on the Reddit before any of us had arrived there. 90% of complaints came from guys who weren't even shot at. This entire thread about game mechanics really lacks input by guys who are experts in the using your requested nerfs against you the people that ask for them. We have a guy posting on this thread like he is an actual PvPer when he is just a mouthpiece for a group that has no players left because they all joined the Smiling Dogs. And I didn't say I was not going to fly anymore so you wont miss me or the SDC boys we're here for the long haul but if you want a good game then stop listening to the bads and get one or two of the Dev team into SDC comms and work with some people who are really going to be able to accurately forecast how your new changes and nerfs are going to affect gameplay from both ends of the player base. We know what regular players think nerfs will do for them and we have an entire team of guys who thinktank on how to use those same nerfs against the very people that wanted them in the first place.
We aren't here just to kill people, what we do is push the game mechanics to limits and into places unseen by the devs and the average joe space dad
Like the security changes mentioned earlier in the thread... security is a pain in the ass so we just wipe out the cops and NPC's, none of those changes will make one bit of difference.
If you want regular players to become a protected species then they have to matter to the combat community, give us trade between players and crafting instead of spending time nerfing the best space combat sim ever. Seed blueprints and the ability to make player owned structures that we need to build as a team, make the community inclusive instead of what is happening right now where anyone who PvP's is called a griefer and we're getting nerfed out of the game
By the way you won't miss me or the antics of the SDC, I just said I'm not buying anything like skins until the direction of this community pulls it's head out Sag A, I will however continue with the agenda established by CMDR Sundae and myself when we formed the SDC, we will continue to make your space our dominion no matter how hard the devs break the game in favor of the cry baby's we'll be there to keep the whiners whining, otherwise what would the whiners do, actually log in and play? I don't think so... Whiners and cry babies are the cancer of any game be it real life sports or internet space ships. These people don't actually play the game, they want the game changed so they can play Anti Elite: Anti Dangerous

 

[Jockey79]

Blowing things up in ED is the only thing to do that is interactive gameplay,

Wrong.

Eve has a market and economy that matters to gameplay, the resources you gather make your ships, that makes care bears and industrialists matter to the PvP community, they are needed to make the ships the combat pilots fly and are therefore protected for that reason and wars between player groups are about resources available, so I agree with you that this isn't Eve in a cockpit not even close.

And people don't want it to be EVE either - you know how I know that.... those that want EVE, go play EVE.
I don't want EVE - been there, done that.

I bought Elite: Dangerous. That is what I want to play... same goes for other people.

Whiners and cry babies are the cancer of any game be it real life sports or internet space ships. These people don't actually play the game, they want the game changed so they can play Anti Elite: Anti Dangerous

You're the one who said you don't play anymore due to nerfs, also - insults don't help your cause.

 

[Ornee Shaula]

You just gave me an idea.....

I'm supposed to be going to bed, damn it!

Edit;

Darn, so close !!
My score card;

View attachment 99041

If anyone wants the website link, PM me - there were 9 designed at random, I used the first one.
We need some proper rules though for a full thread.

Will take that to the off topic link in my Sig though, hammer out some proper rules for ED Bingo
(also will put link to the prints there as well )

Think you just won the internet today dude... paid in full

 

[Jockey79]

Think you just won the internet today dude... paid in full

lol, thx.

If you hit the Hotel California link in my sig - I've got a sheet of 100 cards, you're welcome to grab them and play bingo
Even suggest some rules alongside what I've put up

 

[Darkphoenix]

" stop listening to the bads "

This statement right here clued me in to the quality of the post.....

The last time I saw so much I was actually at a rodeo.....may be time I got a bingo card.....I think that post could very well have been a winner

 

[shambles1980]

same thing to say today as i did yesterday..

both sides pay the re-buy if victim was:
clean, not a member of PP and had report crimes against me on.

Still looking for a reason to stop saying it.
no post so far has managed to convince me it wouldn't be better than what we currently have without a huge mess that would occur if it was rank based.

 

[Mohrgan]

Blowing things up in ED is the only thing to do that is interactive gameplay, <snip> Whiners and cry babies are the cancer of any game be it real life sports or internet space ships. These people don't actually play the game, they want the game changed so they can play Anti Elite: Anti Dangerous

The single best argument for a PvE-Open option ever. This type of outburst is exactly why I left the whole PvP world behind. Elite doesn't need to become what he describes. It can be what ever experience you seek.