Ship speed and manouvering, please decouple.

[Thaddeus Laverne]

I don't understand why these things are linked, it makes some amount of sense for an air-based system, where air movement over the wings is the source of movement abilities, but not in space where movement is completely thruster based.

I like the system power mechanic, where greater power means more overall movement ability. turning ability having a sweet spot in the middle of the speedometer feels counter-intuitive and punishing for basic things like docking, making already slow processes even more frustrating

What I'd like to see is turning and strafing power be max at low speed to mid speed and slowly taper off at higher speed as available power is being routed increasingly to the Main drive

this is one of a few things that would make basic gameplay more engaging and tolerable, specifically increasing user retention - I like the idea of Elite, but the gameplay experience feels like a slog... I haven't ended up playing much because of some basic QoL issues. this is the foremost of them, and an easy change to make.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I don't understand why these things are linked, it makes some amount of sense for an air-based system, where air movement over the wings is the source of movement abilities, but not in space where movement is completely thruster based.

I like the system power mechanic, where greater power means more overall movement ability. turning ability having a sweet spot in the middle of the speedometer feels counter-intuitive and punishing for basic things like docking, making already slow processes even more frustrating

What I'd like to see is turning and strafing power be max at low speed to mid speed and slowly taper off at higher speed as available power is being routed increasingly to the Main drive

this is one of a few things that would make basic gameplay more engaging and tolerable, specifically increasing user retention - I like the idea of Elite, but the gameplay experience feels like a slog... I haven't ended up playing much because of some basic QoL issues. this is the foremost of them, and an easy change to make.

Sweet jesus oh my god. What is it with people and throwing the term 'QoL' at every random thing that irritates them? It's silly and infuriating.

ED adopted this flight model because it helps avoid ships engaging in turret mode combat.

Your suggestion is absurd. Nothing is more counter-intuitive than engaging your target by reducing your speed to as slow as you can possibly go to maximize time on target. Your flight model would work great and does work great if every kind of acceleration were instant - such as in a first person shooter, where this model exists exactly as you suggest.

ED isn't a first person shooter - it's vehicle combat.

 

[Thaddeus Laverne]

I think you missed my point. I didn't suggest that speed and turn / strafe rate be inverse of each other, but that the manouverability sweet spot be extended downwards to the bottom of the speedometer from it's midpoint. I really have no idea what this has to do with non-instant or instant acceleration, that is irrelevant, and so are FPS games and their models.
Time on target is best served by good turning speed, yes. However, it is also served by being in range of your opponent, and you'll never be able to dodge if you move slowly either. You're just a sitting duck. This is mostly not for combat, but things like docking, pickng up cargo, mining, etc. it really wouldn't affect combat to that great a degree, since everyone is dodging and trying to muscle the upper hand anyway.

Edit: come to think of it.. turning thrusters seem to be close to instant max turn. it doesn't really apply still, but it does seem odd now that it comes up.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I don't understand why these things are linked, it makes some amount of sense for an air-based system, where air movement over the wings is the source of movement abilities, but not in space where movement is completely thruster based.

I like the system power mechanic, where greater power means more overall movement ability. turning ability having a sweet spot in the middle of the speedometer feels counter-intuitive and punishing for basic things like docking, making already slow processes even more frustrating

What I'd like to see is turning and strafing power be max at low speed to mid speed and slowly taper off at higher speed as available power is being routed increasingly to the Main drive

this is one of a few things that would make basic gameplay more engaging and tolerable, specifically increasing user retention - I like the idea of Elite, but the gameplay experience feels like a slog... I haven't ended up playing much because of some basic QoL issues. this is the foremost of them, and an easy change to make.

Has to do with things like thruster power, thrust direction, the ability of the thrusters to change direction, the presence of any directional / auxiliary thrusters, and this little thing the rest of us likes to call Physics. Just because there is no air resistance does not mean you can turn on a dime.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

but that the manouverability sweet spot be extended downwards to the bottom of the speedometer from it's midpoint.

This makes a little more sense. Your OP sounds like you want max turning at low speeds rather than middle speeds. I interpreted 'low' speeds as 'lowest' speeds, not 'slightly lower' speeds. You should clarify that.

However, although your suggestion is less broken, it's still broken. The choice between moving quickly or turning quickly is a really easy one to make considering the speed to TTK ratios currently in the game. There are very few match ups where you'd find a situation where going faster is going to overcome someone's maneuverability. ED is more about maneuverability versus maneuverability in that regard.

 

[Thaddeus Laverne]

Did anyone actually read my original post?!? are people confusing changing vector with altering ship facing?..... Gameplay factors aside, which are more subtle...
the only thing physics in a vacuum would say about ability to alter facing at low speed or high speed, would perhaps be to favor faster turning at LOW speed. (still not talking vector here) the only other factor that connects the main drive (not your reactor, but the thing pushing the ship) to the thrusters that change your crafts facing, is the power distributor. It would also favor, if it did favor, better turning when your ship is using less power to go forward.

and if we are talking physics, then spin, and speed should be uncapped. (FSD excluded) but that's not necessarily good for gameplay, or framerates.

 

[steevaavoo]

Did anyone actually read my original post?!? are people confusing changing vector with altering ship facing?..... Gameplay factors aside, which are more subtle...
the only thing physics in a vacuum would say about ability to alter facing at low speed or high speed, would perhaps be to favor faster turning at LOW speed. (still not talking vector here) the only other factor that connects the main drive (not your reactor, but the thing pushing the ship) to the thrusters that change your crafts facing, is the power distributor. It would also favor, if it did favor, better turning when your ship is using less power to go forward.

and if we are talking physics, then spin, and speed should be uncapped. (FSD excluded) but that's not necessarily good for gameplay, or framerates.

Emphasis mine. The highlighted explanation makes sense to me. There may be some very good reasons why I'm wrong though!

 

[Thaddeus Laverne]

There are very few match ups where you'd find a situation where going faster is going to overcome someone's maneuverability. ED is more about maneuverability versus maneuverability in that regard.

OK! a meaningful reply! anyone who thinks about it should recognise the physics don't make sense as they are: it's the gameplay that is meaningful here.
I'm guessing you play alot of the deathmatch mode? Your focus seems to be on just the combat aspect of the game. Regardless, there are a few other factors in a ship battle to think about. 1:you must be moving to dodge missiles,
2: the more opponents you need to face, the more moving is necessary to survive. in a 1 on 1 battle it is perfectly feasible that 2 players could stay in the same basic spot, just using manouvering thrusters to dodge. I don't think that'd happen much though, and that can happen already, since L/R and U/D works just fine at low speed it's the spinning that doesn't.

what you are saying is that if turn speed was able to keep up with the velocity of a circling ship, then the stationary one would have an undue advantage, turning players into glorified turrets?
That could be a problem... it might be mitigated some by having some more options in your movement control setup, and maybe a few toggles for in game.
specifically, allowing you to split flight assist into turn assist (slowly negates spin/yaw/roll) and vector assist (slowly negates X/Y/Z movement)
this would let you circle strafe things(more readily anyway), as well as let you turn your ship and fly sideways and backward at will.
there would probably need to be some testing to see how combat goes with changes to see how people act, it should be fine though. if you doubt, then try freelancer, an old space sim that controlled somewhat similarly to Elite, except for being hobbled at low speeds. from a few vids of star citizen, it seemed like that worked fine, despite higher rate turn at low speeds.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Sweet jesus oh my god. What is it with people and throwing the term 'QoL' at every random thing that irritates them? It's silly and infuriating.

E

Hey! You are ruining my Immersion!

 

[Psycho Romeo]

OK! a meaningful reply! anyone who thinks about it should recognise the physics don't make sense as they are: it's the gameplay that is meaningful here.
I'm guessing you play alot of the deathmatch mode? Your focus seems to be on just the combat aspect of the game. Regardless, there are a few other factors in a ship battle to think about. 1:you must be moving to dodge missiles,
2: the more opponents you need to face, the more moving is necessary to survive. in a 1 on 1 battle it is perfectly feasible that 2 players could stay in the same basic spot, just using manouvering thrusters to dodge. I don't think that'd happen much though, and that can happen already, since L/R and U/D works just fine at low speed it's the spinning that doesn't.

what you are saying is that if turn speed was able to keep up with the velocity of a circling ship, then the stationary one would have an undue advantage, turning players into glorified turrets?
That could be a problem... it might be mitigated some by having some more options in your movement control setup, and maybe a few toggles for in game.
specifically, allowing you to split flight assist into turn assist (slowly negates spin/yaw/roll) and vector assist (slowly negates X/Y/Z movement)
this would let you circle strafe things(more readily anyway), as well as let you turn your ship and fly sideways and backward at will.
there would probably need to be some testing to see how combat goes with changes to see how people act, it should be fine though. if you doubt, then try freelancer, an old space sim that controlled somewhat similarly to Elite, except for being hobbled at low speeds. from a few vids of star citizen, it seemed like that worked fine, despite higher rate turn at low speeds.

There's a few things you're failing to consider:
1) Flight assist is there to assist flight, not complicate it. Flight assist is there because the less capable pilots among us aren't able to grasp the idea of moving in a direction other than the one you're facing. Your suggestion would essentially make every ship slide whenever it does an efficient turn.
2) Combat is the only area of gameplay where we tax our maneuverability to its limits. We don't have scooping races or anything like that.
3) Again, TTK to speed ratios. In something like CQC where you die in two or three seconds of sustained fire, yes, your module would work just fine. If everyone used heavy damage low velocity projectile weapons, yes, your model would work just fine. There'd be an appropriate tradeoff between rolling back your forward thrust to turn your guns. However, in live, TTKs are more typically measured in minutes, and we have many hitscan weapons, so any firing opportunity lost due to the decision to attempt to dodge is simply wasted time.

If we had broadside combat, this would be fantastic. I've used this flight model in a game I've designed and it's fantastic, especially when the need to dodge things other than ship fire gets involved. However that's not exactly a thing in ED. So it is and remains silly.

 

[dxm55]

I would be happy if the pitch and yaw rate were constant regardless of your speed. In other words... screw the blue zone.

It's a vacuum, and my speed should have no bearing on how my ship turns to face. It should instead take time for the computer to adjust the vector to catch up with the pitch/yaw.

It would make for more intuitive combat, and pilots will eventually learn how to skid/strafe to maximum effect.