Yes PVP is unfair.

[Robert Maynard]

Where piracy is a legit path in the game. What if said T-7 does not surrender his cargo and said pirate finishes him off?

Player Pirates can attack both players and NPCs. And in both cases, the encounter could either end with the target dropping cargo and being let off. Or the target being destroyed.

Why should a pirate be penalized more for killing a fleeing player over a fleeing NPC?


That's one thing.

The next. Why should players who decide that it's cool to blindly attack NPCs (or perhaps he attacked the NPC during powerplay or a given mission) be subjected to much lesser penalties than if they attacked another player?

It's could be as simple as "because the Pilots' Federation decrees that members will be punished for attacking / destroying other members illegally". The PF would not seem to be particularly concerned as to the antics of its members (players) in relation to non-members (NPCs).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Again. Treat all killers equally. Whether you kill an NPC Sidewinder, or a player sidewinder.

if that means the potential to come up against npcs with a million credit bounties then there is merit in that indeed, i have no issue with that at all, so long as it is high penalties for all not low penalties for all which is what we have now........... (and if we are to take FD at their word if these new ai updates work as promised an elite npc anaconda post 1.1 may not be so far removed from a semi decent human player - sure the isona's of the world are going to beat an npc every time) but then i am biased because i am not a criminal player and will fail a mission before killing an unwanted ship, so it could be a million credits bounty per clean npc ship and it wont affect me.

lore wise you are wrong however, 100% wrong, if you read your elite history. The Pilots Federation, whom we are members of and are "special" hence the hollow boxes, and who pay our insurance when we get blown up all bar the excess take a very dim view of the killing of its members without having a legal reason to do so.

 

[shambles1980]

make the bounty 500billion..
wont make a difference they will combat log.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

How would you know?
If a griefer is willing to kill another player for laughs, he might very well be willing to kill another player for both laughs and credits.

And non-griefer PVPers will especially LOOOOVVEEEE hunting down these criminals. Especially so since you all think that these gankers are unskilled turds in HRP tanks who kill only newbies and traders. It should be a cakewalk for a millions creds. Why not? You tell me.

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I'm actually moving on from trader/newbie ganking argument. I've never argued that those were easy kills.

But just because you can kill an NPC Anaconda doesn't mean you can take on an Elite player Asp.... much less an Anaconda on.
So giving all these NPC killers lesser penalties than player killers? What's the sense in that?

Again. Treat all killers equally. Whether you kill an NPC Sidewinder, or a player sidewinder.

I'll reiterate what I said in an earlier post here;

There are types of PvP in this game;

In-Context PvP

Player vs Player Piracy : Interdict, scan ship, if player has cargo, demand cargo under menaces. Outcome depends on player's cooperation, or not. Penalty to Pirate player if they blow up the ship.

Player vs Player Bounty hunting : hunt down Wanted players and mete out justice.

Player vs Player combat : could be for many in-game reasons; Powerplay, missions, combat zones...

All of the above is fine! And a player is fair game if they've chosen to play in Open. This is what FDEV is intending when they put the blurb on the "Combat" pages you linked to earlier.

And there's...

Out-of-Context PvP

PvP-for-Sport : when a player or group of players specifically hunt down other players with the specific aim of blowing up their ships. Just Because. They enjoy the "salty tears" generated by this and come up with weak excuses and flimflam to justify their actions.

This is the problem right here.

These types of players aren't playing the game, they're merely treating the game platform like it's some pvp-for-sport arena and turning Open into something which is surely unintended by FDEV. David Braben: "PvP will be rare and meaningful" - he means in-context, folks!


​

 

[dxm55]

It's could be as simple as "because the Pilots' Federation decrees that members will be punished for attacking / destroying other members illegally". The PF would not seem to be particularly concerned as to the antics of its members (players) in relation to non-members (NPCs).

Isn't that saying that the PF condones murder of other people who're not affiliated to them?
Wouldn't that be the same as PVP players killing PVErs without a second thought? Or just because the latter isn't part of some combateer club?

It just sounds weird.

if that means the potential to come up against npcs with a million credit bounties then there is merit in that indeed, i have no issue with that at all, so long as it is high penalties for all not low penalties for all which is what we have now........... (and if we are to take FD at their word if these new ai updates work as promised an elite npc anaconda post 1.1 may not be so far removed from a semi decent human player - sure the isona's of the world are going to beat an npc every time) but then i am biased because i am not a criminal player and will fail a mission before killing an unwanted ship, so it could be a million credits bounty per clean npc ship and it wont affect me.

lore wise you are wrong however, 100% wrong, if you read your elite history. The Pilots Federation, whom we are members of and are "special" hence the hollow boxes, and who pay our insurance when we get blown up all bar the excess take a very dim view of the killing of its members without having a legal reason to do so.

First of all, I have to say. I'm not a ganker or griefer.

The only player I've killed has been in a RES site who was basically kill stealing. And maybe another guy outside a station who had a wanted tag on him. That, plus I also play Solo, when I want some alone time without other commanders interfering with my goals.

That said, I've always endorsed a no holds barred playstyle in Open because I believe that EVERYTHING is legit in a multiplayer sandbox. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Even if I was ganked in Open, (and I HAVE been, twice) I accept it as part of Open.

And I've always been for higher penalties against killing of innocent parties. But only if that didn't mean that Player killers were treated worse than NPC killers. I want more realistic laws. Not special laws that privileges a certain group of players just because they're meek or considered weaker. Laws should be uniform.

You see. I stand for equal opportunity and simple, flat justice for all. That's all there is to it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Isn't that saying that the PF condones murder of other people who're not affiliated to them?

I think of it as like being a made man in the mafia.... dunno if you watch your mafia films but in my mind it is kind of like that,.... not condones as such but certainly treated differently...

but, lore aside, i could dig npcs and humans being exactly the same, with the option to turn on a transponder if you wanted other players (who also had their transponder on) to see you.

PS I never considered you a ganker or a griefer...... people can act however they like on this forum and it does not necessarily reflect on them ingame, and if i saw you in game i would not automatically assume you were out to blow me up....

indeed i am quite gobby on the forums (no really ), which is totally opposite to me in game

 

[Robert Maynard]

Isn't that saying that the PF condones murder of other people who're not affiliated to them?
Wouldn't that be the same as PVP players killing PVErs without a second thought? Or just because the latter isn't part of some combateer club?

It just sounds weird.

The Pilots' Federation only seems to care about its members.

Entirely the same as PvP players destroying PvE players without a thought except for the fact that PvE players are also members of the Pilots' Federation and therefore the PF would take a dim view of such behaviour.

While it may sound weird, it's consistent with how some organisations police their own and could not care less about outsiders.

 

[excalibus]

Yes, poor T-7. Really.

I'm not against increasing penalties for murders.

But not raising NPC kill penalties will simply make life easy for players who fly around unarmed or unshielded. You are simply bestowing a privilege on one group of players.

In short, you penalize the players who're highly skilled (most of the time it's PVPers) and give the PVE (not the traders, but the NPC killers) a crutch.
It's sort of like enabling some lazy relative who's always asking for handouts, when you should have held back and let him work for his keep.

PVErs who explore or run cargo will not kill other players or even non-wanted NPCs. So what do they have to fear if NPC kill penalties were equivalent to player kill penalties?

maybe.... just maybe... though, the reason for weighting against Pv"WV" <weaker victim> is to make PvP more meaningful and to make Players who gank weaker / non combatant ships accept heavier consequences for those actions compared to killing an NPC... NPC's don't have a bank balance, NPC's don't care if you kill them

I am all for a more granular and across the board crime and punishment system, that responds to how players 'behave' or 'misbehave' although I can see the benefits of weighting PvWV consequences as well...

In this regard it would not stop PvP but might reduce some of the 'ganking' having insurance rebuys for the PvWVer include a percentage of the rebuy of each of the WV's that player has killed since that players last rebuy etc...

It would add up pretty quickly that the whole idea of taking out a WV would be a fast way to go bankrupt under the right cicumstances


oh and can we please drop the whole pastel care bear stuff too? you have had some good ideas IMHO but everytime I see you making a pastel related comment, it detracts from those ideas you have put forward that are good and sound ideas... (such as the jump gate idea etc)... it devalues and undermines anything of value you add to a converstaion

 

[Robert Maynard]

That said, I've always endorsed a no holds barred playstyle in Open because I believe that EVERYTHING is legit in a multiplayer sandbox. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Even if I was ganked in Open, (and I HAVE been, twice) I accept it as part of Open.

What is "legit" in this game is for Frontier to determine - it's their game after all. The fact that increased consequences for PvP are being considered by Frontier tends to suggest that they're possibly a little concerned with how Open play is turning out.

 

[dxm55]

I think of it as like being a made man in the mafia.... dunno if you watch your mafia films but in my mind it is kind of like that,.... not condones as such but certainly treated differently...

but, lore aside, i could dig npcs and humans being exactly the same, with the option to turn on a transponder if you wanted other players (who also had their transponder on) to see you.

PS I never considered you a ganker or a griefer...... people can act however they like on this forum and it does not necessarily reflect on them ingame, and indeed if i saw you in game i would not automatically assume you were out to blow me up....

indeed i am quite gobby on the forums (no really ), which is totally opposite to me in game

Or the easy way, as I suggested. Don't differentiate between CMDRs and NPCs on the scanner. No CMDR tag. No hollow blips.
It would really solve many problems.

The Pilots' Federation only seems to care about its members.

Entirely the same as PvP players destroying PvE players without a thought except for the fact that PvE players are also members of the Pilots' Federation and therefore the PF would take a dim view of such behaviour.

While it may sound weird, it's consistent with how some organisations police their own and could not care less about outsiders.

From what I've read, the Pilot's Federation is more of a union, rather than a mafia.

I don't think a union.... I think of Airline Pilots or Trucker's union.... would take kindly to its own members killing civilians or innocents, no matter the affiliation. You tell me.


That's why I'm against any kind of laws which specially protect the meek and weak, especially aiding them in committing crime. Which is basically what you're suggesting. A crime is a crime.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's why I'm against any kind of laws which specially protect the meek and weak, especially aiding them in committing crime. Which is basically what you're suggesting. A crime is a crime.

Generally speaking, laws are put in place to protect those who cannot protect themselves by serving as a deterrent to those who may wish them harm.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

While some may wish that "all kills be treated as equally as possible", that does not seem to be what Sandro is proposing - quite the opposite - consequences for player-on-player kills would seem to be about to increase for the attacker (for illegal kills anyway).

If members of the Pilot Federation is considered a step above the common man (like a politician, FBI agent, Police Officer and the like) I could see the reasoning behind it as more resources would be spent on hunting down the perpetrator but at the same time.

The law should be blind and punishments should be the same regardless of faction affiliation.

Harsher laws will also make PowerPlay interesting as people need to be WAY more careful in those areas of gameplay.

 

[shambles1980]

Generally speaking, laws are put in place to protect those who cannot protect themselves by serving as a deterrent to those who may wish them harm.

thats why rich people pay nearly no tax and the poor pay lots..

But i think we are getting a bit off topic.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If members of the Pilot Federation is considered a step above the common man (like a politician, FBI agent, Police Officer and the like) I could see the reasoning behind it as more resources would be spent on hunting down the perpetrator but at the same time.

The law should be blind and punishments should be the same regardless of faction affiliation.

Harsher laws will also make PowerPlay interesting as people need to be WAY more careful in those areas of gameplay.

Rules of, what is in effect, a private club, can be put in place to deal with the conduct of members.

Whether the in-game law in general is also tweaked will be interesting to see.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What is "legit" in this game is for Frontier to determine - it's their game after all. The fact that increased consequences for PvP are being considered by Frontier tends to suggest that they're possibly a little concerned with how Open play is turning out.

i will never defend the gankers in this game, however I do think FD should at least partly carry the can for how it has worked out..... none of the lasting repercussions for mindless player ship destruction we were told about made it in the game, and the game has been out of beta now for almost 18 months.... There is an argument to be made that up until now FD have been happy for unbalanced player killing to be a thing, because if not they would have put bigger penalties in place.

I do not think that myself. I feel FD, or at least specifically DB was exceptionally naive at not anticipating how a subset of players will act trying to act a berk in every possible way, but I can see why some would say this is not the case and if FD didnt want "carebear tears" in their game then they would have put in penalties for it. (did no one look at other multiplayer games?)

the flip side of the coin is the combat loggers...... FD say it is cheating and they will ban those who do it, but according to the PvPers on this forum, as well as a few self confessed CLers..... what FD say and what they do are also add odds here too.

All i can say is I hope FD fix both of these issues at the same time, and not one without the other.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

What is "legit" in this game is for Frontier to determine - it's their game after all. The fact that increased consequences for PvP are being considered by Frontier tends to suggest that they're possibly a little concerned with how Open play is turning out.

Agreed.

I'd go one further though - that they now realise that their naive hopes that everyone would be playing "in-context" have been rather severely dashed, due to the amount of out-of-context PvP-for-sport which is occurring in Open. That their statistics show that such players are treating Open like it's a pvp-for-sport arena. That PvP in Open has become neither rare nor "meaningful" (i.e. an out-of-context gankfest), and this has chased a not insignificant amount of players into Solo or Group. That if they don't do something about it then Open will become to mean "defacto pvp-for-sport arena" - and I'm pretty certain that's not what they wanted Open to be.

Their attempt to make a defacto pvp-for-sport arena - CQC - has so far failed to curtail a certain player-type's apparent need to pvp-for-sport in Open.

Regards

 

[Robert Maynard]

thats why rich people pay nearly no tax and the poor pay lots..

But i think we are getting a bit off topic.

Bringing relative wealth into the discussion does seem to be off-topic - all players, rich and poor, are members of the same club after all.

 

[crushdepth]

make the bounty 500billion..
wont make a difference they will combat log.

I think you're wrong about that. Fixing crime and punishment will discourage casual vandals and seal clubbers. With the incidence of obnoxious behaviour reduced, acceptance of PVP will increase and this extraordinary epidemic of "combat logging" you speak of should decline.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Or the easy way, as I suggested. Don't differentiate between CMDRs and NPCs on the scanner. No CMDR tag. No hollow blips.
It would really solve many problems.

I would love that. At least keep us "blind" until we have properly SCANNED the target in supercruise

From what I've read, the Pilot's Federation is more of a union, rather than a mafia.

I don't think a union.... I think of Airline Pilots or Trucker's union.... would take kindly to its own members killing civilians or innocents, no matter the affiliation. You tell me.

Technically it's just a minor faction just like any other faction.

That's why I'm against any kind of laws which specially protect the meek and weak, especially aiding them in committing crime. Which is basically what you're suggesting. A crime is a crime

Exactly, the law and punishments should be blind and punish EQUALLY - I mean, what's the point of a "living breathing universe" if we just have arbitrary laws?

 

[shambles1980]

i will never defend the gankers in this game, however I do think FD should at least partly carry the can for how it has worked out..... none of the lasting repercussions for mindless player ship destruction we were told about made it in the game, and the game has been out of beta now for almost 18 months.... There is an argument to be made that up until now FD have been happy for unbalanced player killing to be a thing, because if not they would have put bigger penalties in place.

I do not think that myself. I feel FD, or at least specifically DB was exceptionally naive at not anticipating how a subset of players will act trying to act a berk in every possible way, but I can see why some would say this is not the case and if FD didnt want "carebear tears" in their game then they would have put in penalties for it. (did no one look at other multiplayer games?)

the flip side of the coin is the combat loggers...... FD say it is cheating and they will ban those who do it, but according to the PvPers on this forum, as well as a few self confessed CLers..... what FD say and what they do are also add odds here too.

All i can say is I hope FD fix both of these issues at the same time, and not one without the other.

i still think if you fix combat logging the griefing and ganking will lessen as the griefers and gankers wont be able to combat log when the bigger boys come to get them.

but they do need better detterants.