Yes PVP is unfair.

[Genar-Hofoen]

I'm not so sure insurance costs is going to hurt as much, or be as effective as much, as people think.

Some of these PvP-for-sport players have >1 Billion in their bank. It would take continuous slaughter of non-PvP-for-sport players over an extended period of time in order to even begin making a dent in their finances.

Regards

 

[wstephenson]

I'm not so sure insurance costs is going to hurt as much, or be as effective as much, as people think.

Some of these PvP-for-sport players have >1 Billion in their bank. It would take continuous slaughter of non-PvP-for-sport players over an extended period of time in order to even begin making a dent in their finances.

Regards

Yup, make it harder to lose a bad reputation (after all how come Wanted status doesn't survive an accident in a Sidewinder, but faction rep persists?), and then make it harder to repair and buy ships and modules at factions where you've murdered someone. I'd like to see the 'blaze your own trail with consequences' thing writ a bit larger, and then see the indiscriminate PvP-for-sport bunch having to trail in their combat-rigged craft to the one Anarchy system in the bubble where they have high tech modules and ships for sale to anyone.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm not so sure insurance costs is going to hurt as much, or be as effective as much, as people think.

Some of these PvP-for-sport players have >1 Billion in their bank. It would take continuous slaughter of non-PvP-for-sport players over an extended period of time in order to even begin making a dent in their finances.

Regards

Possibly not. However it would gradually eat at the bank balance of a regular PKer. Maybe, the penalty should be multiplied by a factor that increases with frequency of PKing....

On the other hand, being constantly followed about by high-ranked "Pilots' Federation Arbiters" - which would interfere a PKer's gameplay to an extent - could go some way to reducing the free time available for destroying players in less powerful ships.

Another thing that I would hope would be considered in relation to wiping a commander and starting again would be the criminality and indebtedness of that particular commander - with a delay of some kind imposed for high criminal rating / debt. Consequences are meaningless if a player could just wipe, re-start and set about repeating the actions that caused them to gain a criminal status and debt in the first place.

 

[excalibus]

I think the entire insurance value IS a bit harsh.

After all, MONETARY cost is not a deterrent most of the time so a better solution is to limit/expand gameplay by having stations refuse access to wanted murderers and similar solutions.

We definitely SHOULD increase bounty cost and pile that on the perpetrators insurance though. I think that would work in the long run.

I could say 'I think the fact the victim pays all the insurance out of their pocket is a bit harsh' too... but I won't... It does not necesarily have to be the full insurance... make it a logarythmic curve then if you prefer, first kill costs you 10% of the victims insurance, second, 20%, 3rd 40%, 4th 80%, 5th 120% then flatten it out so at the 10th 200%, 20th 300%, 30th 350% and platue it there....

How about that... is that more appealing?

Of course monetary cost is a deterrant... why do you think the open traders go to 'group or solo' after a bad encounter? do you think it's because their ship got destroyed.. darn it... it's the cost in time of replacing the credits to rebuy the cargo and reclaim their insurance loss that they see... and so for a trader time is money...

 

[NeilF]

Please explain how it would be more appealing ???

So your suggestion is add the rebuy cost of the individual you murder to your own rebuy cost...

If you went out and murdered 10 Sidewinders.... or 10 Anacondas... Which would cause you more concern with your proposed mechanic? ie: One would raise your rebuy cost up substantially more than the other. Indeed, one would almost be chicken feed to the average player...

 

[excalibus]

I'm not so sure insurance costs is going to hurt as much, or be as effective as much, as people think.

Some of these PvP-for-sport players have >1 Billion in their bank. It would take continuous slaughter of non-PvP-for-sport players over an extended period of time in order to even begin making a dent in their finances.

Regards

it won't initially not at the extremes, but for those who are not set up like that... it sure would... and there are ways to make it hurt more... like i even suggested before... the pilots fed confiscating docked ships (for the worst of the worst repeat offenders) might also go some way towards reducing it as well

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Let's add a value to the game, similar to "ELITE" status.

NOTORIETY

Notoriety adds a bonus to any Anarchy based faction but adds a +% to any and all services in lawful space.

+value of sold goods to black market
+rep for missions in Anarchy space
+rep for smuggling missions/assassination/etc
+Increased cost for services in lawful space (while you might not be wanted you will have a reputation)

 

[excalibus]

So your suggestion is add the rebuy cost of the individual you murder to your own rebuy cost...

If you went out and murdered 10 Sidewinders.... or 10 Anacondas... Which would cause you more concern with your proposed mechanic? ie: One would raise your rebuy cost up substantially more than the other. Indeed, one would almost be chicken feed to the average player...

indeed... i did point that out in the same post as well... Still I see it as the lesser of the 2 evils really..

Why do I say that I hear you ask...

Because at that point in time the newbie in the sidey is not going to lose much at all... secondly it will also cause more of a 'pooling' of these types of players in known areas of the bubble where other players in their own combat ships may well be on the 'prowl' for pkers

As an aside, it may well entice some of the traders back into open who don't mind a bit of roleplay piracy but have left due to the pk sport killers...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Please explain how it would be more appealing ???

I think I know what you are getting at... I mean if you kill a newbie in a sidewinder, it will only be a few K on top of your insurance buyback, but if you take out a T9 you could be up for quite a few million in buyback added...

With my idea... those values keep going up until you are killed and either paid them or sent bankrupt... the keep accumulating so if you kill one person early on, you won't suffer greatly, but if you make a habit of it...

Add to that further increases in pilots fed response with their own goon squad coming hunting you... especially once you start to get over key values of outstanding kills etc

The other problem here is that it will make pirating nearly impossible, there will be zero threat of destruction from a player pirate as you can just fly away as they don't dare kill you off if you refuse to give up your cargo.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The other problem here is that it will make pirating nearly impossible, there will be zero threat of destruction from a player pirate as you can just fly away as they don't dare kill you off if you refuse to give up your cargo.

Hmm, that part is a problem though.

Pirates need tools to shut down ships without killing them.

 

[dxm55]

I'm not so sure insurance costs is going to hurt as much, or be as effective as much, as people think.

Some of these PvP-for-sport players have >1 Billion in their bank. It would take continuous slaughter of non-PvP-for-sport players over an extended period of time in order to even begin making a dent in their finances.

Regards

Yep. That's why it's a simple matter to
- Put the bounty on their head as the rebuy cost of the player they killed. That's the PilFed bounty on top of the normal bounty.
- Deny anyone with a wanted status a rebuy for anything they are flying.
- Bounty duration is cumulative
- Bounty does not end with their destruction, but will run its course. This is to prevent exploiting the mechanics by getting into a sidewinder and suicide, to clear wanted status.
- once the bounty expires, the player has a limited time to pay the fine before he becomes wanted again


Why this will work?
If a player is wanted, and knows that his ship is worth more than his bounty, and that he cannot get a rebuy because of the wanted status, he will think twice about engaging in further acts of lunacy.

If he really continues to kill, his bounty/fine will only get larger, the duration of his bounty get longer and not clearable by death. He will eventually lose his ship to a bounty hunter, and possibly respawn still wanted, having lost an expensive ship.. And eventually will have to pay the very large fine. He has a lot to lose.

Now these are real consequences which can lose a player hundreds of millions. And possibly cause him a character reset as the only way out of debt.

Is this not harsh enough?



We can even put another mechanic in.
Everytime you murder someone, you are given an option to compensate the victim his full rebuy, and maybe another 50% on top of it as 'psychological trauma' damages.

By doing so, the vic's rebuy is not added to your PilFed bounty. But the normal police bounty and wanted status still applies.

This gives the victim some avenue for recompense, and also for a remorseful killer to make some kind of amends.


Might this provide some relief for the victims who would otherwise be high and dry?

 

[excalibus]

The other problem here is that it will make pirating nearly impossible, there will be zero threat of destruction from a player pirate as you can just fly away as they don't dare kill you off if you refuse to give up your cargo.

It would not stop a pirate firing on you and forcing an ejection of cargo... it also would not stop a pirate from disabling your ship etc... it may cause to give the pirate some pause if they kill you and it could well be that the pilots federation ONLY gets involved when it occurs in non anarchy systems aligned to any of the major factions which would make travelling to anarchies more risky and travelling to non aligned independent systems potentially more hazardous

Therefore it would not remove the risk of being killed by a pirate at all

 

[dxm55]

Hmm, that part is a problem though.

Pirates need tools to shut down ships without killing them.

I think the current mechanics already work for piracy.

If a pirate shoots a player to threaten him, he only gets wanted for assault.
Both pirate and victim are now in a contentious position.

One risks destruction, the other risks being wanted for a murder which he would otherwise not want.

If everything goes smoothly for the pirate, the vic will drop cargo and run.
If things go right for the vic, he will run, and the pirate will let him go, not wanting a murder bounty.

 

[NeilF]

Because at that point in time the newbie in the sidey is not going to lose much at all... secondly it will also cause more of a 'pooling' of these types of players in known areas of the bubble where other players in their own combat ships may well be on the 'prowl' for pkers

As an aside, it may well entice some of the traders back into open who don't mind a bit of roleplay piracy but have left due to the pk sport killers...

It just seems out of wack IMHO - A sidewinder packed with cargo amounting to a newbies entire X day profits is probably worse for them to lose, than my Anaconda costing me a few hours trading to recoup? So the troll gets to cause more agro to the newbie, with, what is most likely a negligable increase in their rebuy cost...

IMHO, mindless murder/destruction is the same no matter who it is... and should be handled in the same unforgiving manner no matter what...

 

[excalibus]

It just seems out of wack IMHO - A sidewinder packed with cargo amounting to a newbies entire X day profits is probably worse for them to lose, than my Anaconda costing me a few hours trading to recoup? So the troll gets to cause more agro to the newbie, with, what is most likely a negligable increase in their rebuy cost...

IMHO, mindless murder/destruction is the same no matter who it is... and should be handled in the same unforgiving manner no matter what...

well then... what do you suggest???

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think the current mechanics already work for piracy.

If a pirate shoots a player to threaten him, he only gets wanted for assault.
Both pirate and victim are now in a contentious position.

One risks destruction, the other risks being wanted for a murder which he would otherwise not want.

If everything goes smoothly for the pirate, the vic will drop cargo and run.
If things go right for the vic, he will run, and the pirate will let him go, not wanting a murder bounty.

The current mechanics work for piracy because there is no real disincentive for the pirate to destroy the target - therefore the targeted player must assume that the pirate will destroy them if they don't comply (and, sometimes, even if they do). A 6,000 Cr. bounty that last for one week and only applies in one system is a trivial consequence for destroying a ship incurring a loss to the target that may be hundreds (if not thousands) of times that amount.

 

[dxm55]

The current mechanics work for piracy because there is no real disincentive for the pirate to destroy the target - therefore the targeted player must assume that the pirate will destroy them if they don't comply (and, sometimes, even if they do). A 6,000 Cr. bounty that last for one week and only applies in one system is a trivial consequence for destroying a ship incurring a loss to the target that may be hundreds (if not thousands) of times that amount.

I meant the mechanics of the wanted for assault/murder system.
The penalties can be tweaked.

As I have suggested here:.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=226764&page=92&p=3531484&viewfull=1#post3531484



But do not forget that piracy is a legitimate gameplay style. Nevermind what some PVEr who are completely intolerant even of this would say.

 

[NeilF]

well then... what do you suggest???

As I've said a few times, I don't think simply coming down hard(er) on PvP murder is the answer. Some CMDRs want to take part in PvP and part of the answer I feel is for the game to actually promote and endorse "legal" PvP:-

• Missions that actively try and pit CMDRs against each other, "legally". (Convoy protection/assault. Platform protection/assault. Station blockade/run. Capital ship defense/attack.)
• Tighten up Piracy such that it is not about an excuse to murder other CMDRs - far from it - but instead stealing cargo by force. Allow pirates to improve their standing (via good piracy) to give them access to hidden platforms or asteroid bases, with better paying black market rates. Maybe even offer them unique missions maybe even with periodic legal CMDR murder missions? eg: "Murder a Pilots Federation member in system X in the next Y days to make the local authority more unstable."
• Maybe even offer a couple of PvP areas (in open space, in asteroid fieds, or around dead/damaged platforms) for legal fights, even with some rebuy costs covered. All for TV entertainment.
• Finally, if a CMDR does illegally murder another CMDR, put them on a most wanted list in all but anarchy systems for a period. And if they do it again... a longer period... And so on... Show them as a different colour on other CMDRs scanners to highlight their most wanted status. They will find security vessels in increased numbers interdicting them, and generally appearing in their instance. In non-anarchy systems, hell, let a capital ship possibly turn up while they're headed towards a station! And death would not end the punishment period, they'd need to serve the entire period! *or something along these lines *

 

[excalibus]

As I've said a few times, I don't think simply coming down hard(er) on PvP murder is the answer. Some CMDRs want to take part in PvP and part of the answer I feel is for the game to actually promote and endorse "legal" PvP:-

• Missions that actively try and pit CMDRs against each other, "legally". (Convoy protection/assault. Platform protection/assault. Station blockade/run. Capital ship defense/attack.)
• Tighten up Piracy such that it is not about an excuse to murder other CMDRs - far from it - but instead stealing cargo by force. Allow pirates to improve their standing (via good piracy) to give them access to hidden platforms or asteroid bases, with better paying black market rates. Maybe even offer them unique missions maybe even with periodic legal CMDR murder missions? eg: "Murder a Pilots Federation member in system X in the next Y days to make the local authority more unstable."
• Maybe even offer a couple of PvP areas (in open space, in asteroid fieds, or around dead/damaged platforms) for legal fights, even with some rebuy costs covered. All for TV entertainment.
• Finally, if a CMDR does illegally murder another CMDR, put them on a most wanted list in all but anarchy systems for a period. And if they do it again... a longer period... And so on... Show them as a different colour on other CMDRs scanners to highlight their most wanted status. They will find security vessels in increased numbers interdicting them, and generally appearing in their instance. In non-anarchy systems, hell, let a capital ship possibly turn up while they're headed towards a station! And death would not end the punishment period, they'd need to serve the entire period! *or something along these lines *

interesting...

+1

How would you tighten up piracy without taking away the chocie for them the kill their victim if the victim does not comply to their demands?
I mean we all want the random pk sport thing gone for the most part but i don't think any of us want piracy drastically affected either...

there is one other aspect that we also need to consider, the ramming death aspect, where someone deliberatly rams you while you are speeding and then their ship gets destroyed... that would further impact on the 'victim' in all the scenarios we have all put forward still i think

 

[Robert Maynard]

But do not forget that piracy is a legitimate gameplay style. Nevermind what some PVEr who are completely intolerant even of this would say.

Of course piracy is a perfectly legitimate play-style. However it does not require the target to be a player - no role does - it is up to the player role-playing the role as to which targets they select.

.... and PvE players don't want to be bothered by the unwanted attentions of other players at all - not just pirates....