Yes PVP is unfair.

And

So there is no point giving incentives because of the viewpoint you put across

look you just need to accept some players will never want to engage in pvp and that is fine, it is how the game was advertised and working as intended....
The ONLY players you have a chance of getting back into open or keeping in open are the ones who in principle would not mind potential PvP so long as it is in a believeable and convincing way. those are the people these suggestions may win back,

And FGS its not GREED!. If you are playing ED as a 1 upmanship game where you laud your stuff earned due to your l33t skills over the unskilled peasants, then you really did not do your homework on the game. accept it, adapt or find another game. anything else leads to fustration
 
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look you just need to accept some players will never want to engage in pvp and that is fine, it is how the game was advertised and working as intended....
The ONLY players you have a chance of getting back into open or keeping in open are the ones who in principle would not mind potential PvP so long as it is in a believeable and convincing way. those are the people these suggestions may win back,

And FGS its not GREED!. If you are playing ED as a 1 upmanship game where you laud your stuff earned due to your l33t skills over the unskilled peasants, then you really did not do your homework on the game. accept it, adapt or find another game. anything else leads to fustration

I have no problem with players not wanting to interact and PvP. It's a big wide galaxy out there, everyone can do whatever they please, thats the beauty of the game and hence the reason why incentives are pointless. It seems to me that its the vocal minority of non-PvPers that are trying to force other players into a different gaming method.

IMO open allows for all forms of playing the game. Sorry if you ran into a that wouldn't leave you alone to do your trading but hey thats the chance you take when you play a game that hosts lots of different people with different viewpoints.

For the people that keep coming on here saying they don't want any form of interaction, why are you commenting at all? There is a Solo mode just for that purpose. And yes, once in a while when I want to interact with just friendly people I go into Mobius. Which, incidentally is also full of people that don't want to interact with anyone at all.
 
I have no problem with players not wanting to interact and PvP. It's a big wide galaxy out there, everyone can do whatever they please, thats the beauty of the game and hence the reason why incentives are pointless. It seems to me that its the vocal minority of non-PvPers that are trying to force other players into a different gaming method.

No, some PvE players are asking for a PvE mode - so they can have the social (if they want them) interactions without the PvP'ers forcing PvP on them.

IMO open allows for all forms of playing the game.

Nope, game does not support multiplayer PvE only play.
All multiplayer game modes are PvP based.

For the people that keep coming on here saying they don't want any form of interaction, why are you commenting at all?

Because they are allowed to.
And their opinion is just as valid as yours.

And yes, once in a while when I want to interact with just friendly people I go into Mobius. Which, incidentally is also full of people that don't want to interact with anyone at all.

And it is still an PvP enabled area and has had 10+ non-consent PvP incursions from people who solely wanted to shoot PvE'ers
 
IMO open allows for all forms of playing the game. Sorry if you ran into a that wouldn't leave you alone to do your trading but hey thats the chance you take when you play a game that hosts lots of different people with different viewpoints.

Well said.

And sorry if you ran into a "" that combat logged but that's the chance you take when you play a game that hosts lots of different people with different viewpoints.
 
No, some PvE players are asking for a PvE mode - so they can have the social (if they want them) interactions without the PvP'ers forcing PvP on them.
Indeed some are

Nope, game does not support multiplayer PvE only play.
All multiplayer game modes are PvP based.
How so? I went 3 months doing my thing all over the bubble in open without any interaction, good or bad. Also group mode allows you to create your own group with your friends playing against the environment, just don't allow anyone else in.

Because they are allowed to.
And their opinion is just as valid as yours.
Fair enough, I just don't hold a deal of value it an opinion if you haven't at least tried to walk the path

And it is still an PvP enabled area and has had 10+ non-consent PvP incursions from people who solely wanted to shoot PvE'ers
10+ over how many combined hours of play? The only way to 100% stamp it out is to do was I say above, make your own group

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Well said.

And sorry if you ran into a "" that combat logged but that's the chance you take when you play a game that hosts lots of different people with different viewpoints.

Not bothered, it's happened to me. I didn't lose sleep.
The point (which all PvE players keep avoiding) is that CL is described as a cheat. Seal clubbing a sidewinder in an Anaconda is not
 
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Not bothered, it's happened to me. I didn't lose sleep.
The point (which all PvE players keep avoiding) is that CL is described as a cheat. Seal clubbing a sidewinder in an Anaconda is not

And my point is that this is a ridiculous state of affairs. If competitive PvP is a core feature of the game fair enough - introduce a matchmaker. Putting a sidewinder against an anaconda is just legal griefing.
 
And my point is that this is a ridiculous state of affairs. If competitive PvP is a core feature of the game fair enough - introduce a matchmaker. Putting a sidewinder against an anaconda is just legal griefing.

I 100% agree with you that it is legal griefing and have stated many time that it is not my thing. Nor is PKing traders (even if they do roam around a 'dangerous' environment without shields and defensive weapons)
I want good game mechanics so I can effectively hunt down these players and ensure I get a good chance to PvP against them without them using tactics like CL. I want to be able to dog them across the bubble until I destroy them.
If I get destroyed, good for them, but mostly if you are even able to engage them, they are people that CL so no-one gets destroyed
 
How so? I went 3 months doing my thing all over the bubble in open without any interaction, good or bad. Also group mode allows you to create your own group with your friends playing against the environment, just don't allow anyone else in.

So PvE players are not allowed the "MMO" experience then?
But PvP'ers are ?

10+ over how many combined hours of play? The only way to 100% stamp it out is to do was I say above, make your own group

Or FD to support PvE play and add an Open PvE mode to sit next to the Open PvPvE mode we currently have.

Oh, as for how many, that is irrelevant - what is relevant is PvP'ers forcing themselves on others who went out of their way (literally, they left open mode) to PvE and not PvP...
....it's called harassment / griefing in other games it gets you banned for doing it. If FD actually did something, the constant nagging for an Open PvE mode would die down as trolls and idiots would get banned or learn to leave people alone.
 
So PvE players are not allowed the "MMO" experience then?
But PvP'ers are ?
You ignored the first part of my quote but thats fine. I played PvE in Open for months all across the bubble with no interaction positive or negative. Yes I saw the odd hollow but it was just a blip on my scanner. You can play any part of the game from any part of the bubble (apart from CG's). However, if you are unwilling to even risk the slightest bit of negative interaction then you can create or join a group.

Or FD to support PvE play and add an Open PvE mode to sit next to the Open PvPvE mode we currently have.

Oh, as for how many, that is irrelevant - what is relevant is PvP'ers forcing themselves on others who went out of their way (literally, they left open mode) to PvE and not PvP...
....it's called harassment / griefing in other games it gets you banned for doing it. If FD actually did something, the constant nagging for an Open PvE mode would die down as trolls and idiots would get banned or learn to leave people alone.
Yes the ones that went into Mobius to PvP are idiots and probably did it more to get a rise on here. I think I saw someone posting that he was one of them. Maybe FD will relent and create an Open PvE, maybe not
 
This will be a redundant statement but if you want piracy to be viable without murder buff limpets so they move faster than a majority of ships, they previously have been so slow they'd only catch a T9.

Ignore this if its been fixed, I just very much doubt it has been ;)
 
There is a developer at FDev who programs NPCs with great intent. He probably sits in a darkened corner of the office. People hush when they pass by and avert their eyes. Sometimes he works late at night. People say they have heard quiet laughter from his corner. Those who dared to have a passing glance at this screen saw sliders, buttons and numbers. Numbers and the faint image of a skull.
Know that you fight against Him. When your ship explodes a smile is painted on His face.

(Humour out).

I wonder if he sits there spinning around on his chair over and over again.
 
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Fair enough, I just don't hold a deal of value it an opinion if you haven't at least tried to walk the path
And you're not forced to value any given opinion. People who hold one view strongly are unlikely to value the opposing view anyway, at least to begin with.

But the view of Solo players with regard to how Open works IS valid, whether you like it or not, because our 'unfair' and 'cheating' influence on the BGS keeps being raised by PVP players as a problem.

It may be a problem - and speaking personally, I would rather not have any such influence. I'd rather be playing offline. But that's not available to me. I'm playing an online game whether I want to or not - at least if we take it as read that I want to play this particular game. And why I want to play this particular game, when it's clearly intended as a multiplayer PVP game is because it was advertised to me as the next Elite - a game series I've played faithfully so far - and as one that would allow me to play alone.

And, for what it's worth, although I say I would never consider playing in Open, that's because the game is currently focused almost entirely on player combat. I'm not opposed to player interaction - I just don't want to have fights with other players. But ED doesn't really offer anything else.

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Yes the ones that went into Mobius to PvP are idiots and probably did it more to get a rise on here. I think I saw someone posting that he was one of them. Maybe FD will relent and create an Open PvE, maybe not
I certainly think something needs to be done to take the load off Mobius. The popularity of that group proves that the demand is there, and those players are already in 'Open PVE mode', whether Frontier like it or not.

The aforementioned idiots don't make any difference to the facts here, except to make ED even less fun for the players who want to be in Open PVE because Mobius has to investigate and ban infringers manually. Frontier just have to decide whether they want to do anything about this obvious demand, and the fact that it gives a bad impression to leave an unofficial Open PVE group to a player to manage.
 
So the discussion has drifted a bit. It's back to "PvP vs PvE" instead of what this topic was actually about.

The best "PvP solution" I can think of has been already implemented in other games. A "non-PvP" flag isn't a totally foreign concept to games.

Think of other games with successful PvP combat. Let's talk about the elephant in every MMO room, WoW. In friendly, low-level regions close to your main city, you were safe and couldn't be attacked by enemy players. Even outside of those areas, the disparity in level scaled what you gained from the kill. Evenly-matched fights rewarded you more than picking on somebody weaker.

That basic principle is well-rounded and easy to apply. "Safe" systems near core systems where lower-level players can start up without fear - unless they foolishly flag themselves for PvP by getting a bounty or manually activating a PvP flag. PvP would then be a choice and could still exist without encompassing individuals who want to avoid it.

But you get out of those core systems and away from "Protected" status, and just as vulnerable as you are anywhere now.

Of course, another big part of the discussion that got drowned in the "PvP vs PvE" drivel was that PvP is unfair. It's right in the title of the thread; PvP punishes the victim with a rebuy and lost cargo/bounties/bonds, and attackers get a very small bounty and no real repercussions.

PvP would be less "unfair" if the blow to the victim of player-on-player violence was less steep. Cargo insurance in the case of PvP and mitigated rebuy costs would go a long way toward reducing the blow on players trying to keep their head down.

Of course, the core principle is: some people are jerks and want to be jerks. You need to discourage the jerks who get off on making other players unhappy, while still allowing for a real PvP experience for other players.

Consider that the people interdicting new players could do the same thing for NPCs, but the only draw for them is that there is a real person that they can make unhappy. Not the combat or the interaction, but the opportunity to make another human being's experience negative. That isn't exactly a demographic that needs to be protected.
 
You ignored the first part of my quote but thats fine. I played PvE in Open .....

No.

You played "PvPvE" and got lucky, you didn't get attacked or killed.

It is not possible to play "PvE" in a game that does not have a PvE mode / setting / option.
Elite has multiplayer PvPvE or Solo - it does not have PvE.
 
How would you know?
If a griefer is willing to kill another player for laughs, he might very well be willing to kill another player for both laughs and credits.

And non-griefer PVPers will especially LOOOOVVEEEE hunting down these criminals. Especially so since you all think that these gankers are unskilled turds in HRP tanks who kill only newbies and traders. It should be a cakewalk for a millions creds. Why not? You tell me.

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This might be true...but the flip side of the argument is that the bounties become scores to share and compare..no self respecting PvP player would try to remove someone's bounty...or the bounty carrier would just log out when faced with someone that could..then add onto all that the instancing...lack of ability to know where bounty carriers actually are...blah blah blah....
 
With all of that you still believe FD is responsible for the way Open has become? I see the issue squarely in the players hands. FD knew what was likely to happen and made allowances. There is nothing you can find in open that you can't find in Groups. That was/is on purpose. By allowing each player decide where to play they solved the whole problem at once, and a Mobius was inevitable. All it took was for someone to remember the PvE servers found in most every other game to get the idea. Bravo to Mobius for stepping up and getting the word out there.


Sir Braben once said that Open is a social experiment of sorts. You don't always know what the outcome of an experiment is.


"Rare and meaningful" PVP was one the expected results but many players want more PVP than what can be provided within the "meaningful" bracket right now. FDev is to blame putting great flight mechanics, ships and outfitting varations in place that make this kind of activity fun (for PVPers).


Now it is up to FDev to decide whether this desire for more PVP in parts of the community should be channelled and encouraged or if it should be supressed to return to the previously stated "rare and meaningful" premise.


---
PS: Apologies MoM™. I learn something new every day. :)
 
The next. Why should players who decide that it's cool to blindly attack NPCs (or perhaps he attacked the NPC during powerplay or a given mission) be subjected to much lesser penalties than if they attacked another player?
Basically, from a game design point of view, having attacks on other players have greater consequences than attacks on NPCs makes sense because when you attack another player you are knowingly doing something that can ruin that other player's experience. When you attack a NPC, it's merely a piece of code created to be an opponent or target, and thus there are no negative repercussions from the attack to anyone else.

It's one of the main reasons why the design of PvE games and of PvP games is often wildly different. PvP games need to make being the target engaging and enjoyable, while PvE games don't need to bother about it. Take crowd control, for example: in a PvE game, giving players a crowd control ability that takes skill to use but that lasts a long time and for which there is no counter is perfectly fine; in a PvP game, having that same kind of crowd control is game-breaking.

And yeah, I do think players and NPCs should be treated very differently in ED. Among other things, I believe bounties accrued from killing players should be far greater than bounties from killing NPCs and that the rebuy costs from PvP should be drastically reduced or even waived altogether.




Their attempt to make a defacto pvp-for-sport arena - CQC - has so far failed to curtail a certain player-type's apparent need to pvp-for-sport in Open.

CQC would never succeed in getting the seal-clubbers away from Open, sincerely, because the kind of player that goes seal-clubbing in Open isn't the same that enjoys instanced, loss-free, evenly-matched PvP.

I do still think CQC a worthy addition to the game because it caters to a kind of PvPer that, before it, wasn't catered to in the game at all, though.




This would not solve it, in my opinion.

If a player drops into an instance with ships already in existence then there must be a player there. If there's only one other ship....

Similarly, if a player drops into an instance, from the player already in the instance's perspective, they have just opened another P2P connection therefore the new ship must be a player.
Worse. Just play while monitoring your network activity (the default Windows Resource Monitor already allows you to do this per process) and you will be able to determine when another player is in the same instance. And this is something that can neither be detected nor worked around, at least not without moving away from the peer to peer design.




In reality, there are systems in place intended to make crime unappealing, when without them it would be a simple way of obtaining what you want from those too weak to protect themselves. These systems are legal (you can be fined, or go to prison, or (historically) be executed); or they can be social (there is shame and stigma in being seen as a criminal). And perhaps most importantly there's also the moral safeguard which leads most people to reason "I won't do that because it's a nasty thing to do and I wouldn't want it done to me". That basic empathy is probably what prevents more crime than anything else - but there are people who lack that empathy.
This is why I absolutely require knowing if my target is a player and, if it is, whether that player wants to fight, before I even consider pulling the trigger. I played WoW in a PvP realm for over half a decade, most of that time playing an hour or two daily, and never in that time I started a fight with the opposite faction (apart from Battlegrounds, but those are like CQC, everyone there is pinning for a fight).

It's also why I refuse to help in any way, or even play with, those that wouldn't at least make sure their target actually wants a fight before opening fire. If the player doesn't care about others enough to make sure his attack isn't ruining the game for someone else, I don't want him in my game at all.




For the people that keep coming on here saying they don't want any form of interaction, why are you commenting at all? There is a Solo mode just for that purpose. And yes, once in a while when I want to interact with just friendly people I go into Mobius. Which, incidentally is also full of people that don't want to interact with anyone at all.
I don't want any PvP interaction, sure. I do want to interact with friendly players (or at least players that can't/won't shoot me), though.

And no, Mobius isn't enough. Besides not being official, there is no actual mechanism to prevent player attacks, and there is a glaringly obvious potential point of failure in that only a single player is allowed to accept, or kick, other players.
 
So, I feel like I am the only one to say this, but...

I feel like PvP is UNrewarding...I don't get anything for attacking other players. Okay, if they have a bounty, sure.

I'd like to blow up players and then pieces of salvage or modules or some kind of loot fly off when they explode. Other players in the game are the most difficult to fight against, essentially, each real player are "bosses" (think rpg's here) and I want some kind of loot from my combat experience. The only thing I get from PvP is...a bounty on MY head. Not really efficient use of my time really.

otherwise, I'll chase npc bounties and mine or explore.
 
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So, I feel like I am the only one to say this, but...

I feel like PvP is UNrewarding...I don't get anything for attacking other players. Okay, if they have a bounty, sure.

I'd like to blow up players and then pieces of salvage or modules or some kind of loot fly off when they explode. Other players in the game are the most difficult to fight against, essentially, each real player are "bosses" (think rpg's here) and I want some kind of loot from my combat experience. The only thing I get from PvP is...a bounty on MY head. Not really efficient use of my time really.

otherwise, I'll chase npc bounties and mine or explore.

Trick is to convince them to drop some loot before you kill them. So I am told...
 
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